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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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That's utter nonsense Laton......

All this stuff about rotating maps & images is utter rubbish.


This is an example of the photo overlay for the LRO2 wide-angle camera:

[qimg]http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd313/Ash51a/LRO2.jpg[/qimg]

So you can see the image overlap and the orbit orientation.

And here is the swath, overlap and orbit diagram for the later LRO high-res cameras:

[qimg]http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd313/Ash51a/LORdetail.jpg[/qimg]

Those 'lines' your seem to think are residual lat/long markings from a rotated map are actually the boundries of each orbital path and camera run. Those kinds of thing are really common in older air-photo composite maps. To any one who has dealt with aerial photography for mapping work (which I have) it is quite obvious what is going on in those maps.

So the maps match up with the orbital parths, documetation and camera overlay/swath calculations

There is no need at all for any kind or image rotation or re-orientation.

ETA: Image references:

1st image: Guide to Lunar Orbiter Photographs. NASA 1970

2nd image: Lunar Orbiter Photographic Data. NASA June 1969


That's utter nonsense Laton......Just take a look at Lunar Orbiter II 2087 for yourself;


http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/lunarorbiter/frame/?2087

Here the image is rotated counterclockwise even more than it is on the LAM-2 flown Map. This actually more resembles the Grolier Map than the LAM-2 Flown Map. Regardless, the maps are rotated.
 
Didn't know where to look.

This is interesting, from none other than the renown Apollo Historian David M. Harland himself.

In his book, EXPLORING THE MOON(The Apollo Expeditions) Harland wrote that Collins was not able to locate the Eagle with his sextant because HE DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHERE TO LOOK. Now that is LOST, and it is come from a very reputable historian. One of the best most would say. Interesting? No?
 
Origin of the LAM-2 Map, a question.......

Since I have not been able to determine with certainty the image from which the Apollo 11 LAM-2 Flown Map was made, I am withdrawing my claim regarding map fraudulence based on the rotation issue.

That said, the claim of Apollo 11 LAM-2 Flown Map fraudulence based on the inaccurate gridding, with longitude lines featured 4 minutes of arc west of where the should be, that stands of course as before, and stands firmly.

The LAM-2 Map is 100% inauthentic based on the map's inaccurate gridding alone.

If I can be sure of the LAM-2 Map's image origin, I may again bring up the rotation issue. For now I will leave my point about the map's inauthenticity based solely, and strongly on the inaccurate gridding argument.
 
I see not much has changed since I last peered in.

Patrick, perhaps you should have a go with the Virtual AGC and show everyone how it can be used to do a fully automated landing without any human pilot interaction.

http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/
 
I wrote that the longitude lines were set up inaccurately 4 radians to the west of where they should be on the Apollo 11 LAM-2 Flown Map. That should have read 4 minutes of arc to the west of where they should be on the LAM-2 Flown Map, not 4 radians.

So the LAM-2 Map has 23 30' 00" where 23 26' 00" should be. This inaccurate gridding was of course intentional and is evidence for/of fraud.


Patrick, you do realize that latitude/longitude, grid lines, pick a co-ordinate system are simply arbitrary lines projected onto a two dimensional projection of a three dimensional sphere - and that they can bloody well go where ever the cartographer wants? There is nothing that prevents a cartographer from shifting these arbitrary lines about, or from making corrections to the orientation or location if the cartographer is:

a. Making use of a better projection than what was available before;
b. Ensuring orientation with a larger area, or with adjoining maps; or
c. Fixing errors from previous iterations.

It's a good thing cartographers can do these things, as otherwise we'd be stuck with lots of maps that say "Here be dragons" and "Terra Incognita" and precious few accurate maps.
 
Whatever matt, the book/monograph I read was from 1959...., the idea was/is to understand what was going on at the time, late 50s early 60s. The authors are/were highly respected to say the least. You should check the monograph out. I believe it is very worthwhile.

But again why should anyone take what you 'believe' seriously? You've made repeated factual mistakes, Julian Co-ordinates, overestimating the Apollo budget by a factor of ten being two of the highlights, that mean your opinions carry no weight whatsoever. As I pointed out in another thread Patrick when you are faced with a contradiction between your expectations and reality you keep asserting that it is reality that is flawed.
 
That said, the claim of Apollo 11 LAM-2 Flown Map fraudulence based on the inaccurate gridding, with longitude lines featured 4 minutes of arc west of where the should be, that stands of course as before, and stands firmly.

The LAM-2 Map is 100% inauthentic based on the map's inaccurate gridding alone.



How is it possible to write the words "inaccurate gridding" and not understand how so very wrong it is to put those words together?
 
This is interesting, from none other than the renown Apollo Historian David M. Harland himself.

In his book, EXPLORING THE MOON(The Apollo Expeditions) Harland wrote that Collins was not able to locate the Eagle with his sextant because HE DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHERE TO LOOK. Now that is LOST, and it is come from a very reputable historian. One of the best most would say. Interesting? No?

You forgot something this "renowned" and "reputable historian" is also saying:

That we landed on the moon.


Is he wrong or right?
 
NASA Chief Webb informed JFK 20 billion to 40 billion dollars was what a moon/Apollo Project would cost.

No. The document by which James Webb transmitted NASA's proposal to the White House contains only one figure -- $20 billion.

I pointed out this was roughly one third of a 1961 annual Federal Budget.

Irrelevant, since the entire $20 billion wasn't spent in a single year.

Statisticians say the average American eats over 40 pounds of corn syrup a year. Does that mean he ate 40 pounds today or every day? Or was it spread out over a year so that he eats a little bit each day?

Now these are the facts. You can read them any way you like.

Thank you. I'll read them the way every other budget analyst in history has read them. This is not a matter of legitimate difference of opinion; you are simply wrong.

I view this as ridiculously expensive, to spend one third of an annual Federal Budget spread out over 11 years...

Despite pages and pages of tediously detailed explanation, you still don't grasp what "spread out over 11 years" means. You're multiplying the total project budget times each of the active years. And in case there was any legitimate ambiguity, the actual yearly expenditures have been presented to you. So have the end-of-project accounting figures as transmitted to the GAO.

There are two additional documentary sources that contradict your absurd interpretation that one-third of the U.S. federal budget in each of 11 years was spent on Apollo. And you've ignored them both.

At this point I have to conclude that you are either deliberately avoiding the refutation, or that your reading comprehension skills border on illiteracy.

As such, I concluded NASA had to be military from the get go.

And as I explained before, your argument fails for two reasons.

First, the premise is numerically incorrect. Apollo's budget never rose above 7 percent of the year's expenditures for any of its active years. You fail basic arithmetic.

Second, the inference of what the money may have been spent on is entirely a begged question. You commit this fallacy several times a day, almost as a matter of course.

...my numbers are correct regardless of your opinion as to what they mean.

No, your "numbers" are blatantly wrong, and everyone except for you sees this.
 
That's utter nonsense Laton......Just take a look at Lunar Orbiter II 2087 for yourself;


http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/lunarorbiter/frame/?2087

Here the image is rotated counterclockwise even more than it is on the LAM-2 flown Map. This actually more resembles the Grolier Map than the LAM-2 Flown Map. Regardless, the maps are rotated.


Take a look at that image Patrick. See those marks down the side?

Those are frame reference and fiducial marks that are part of the image negative. The image you have selected is obviously part of a camera run that has been scanned along its length and put up on the net in an orientation that makes it easy to view. The problem you are having is that you're viewing an image completely out of context and trying to draw conclusions from that.

So what would you like?

For NASA to put every image up in its exact orientation as taken?
or for each image to be in its correct, rectified geographic position & orientation?
or will you now insist that each image is shown exactly as it was taken?

Because based on the numbering of those fiducials and the orientation of that image, if that last option is the path you go down you are contending that the LRO's orbited in a South to North direction? :rolleyes:


Since I have not been able to determine with certainty the image from which the Apollo 11 LAM-2 Flown Map was made, I am withdrawing my claim regarding map fraudulence based on the rotation issue.

{snip}

If I can be sure of the LAM-2 Map's image origin, I may again bring up the rotation issue. For now I will leave my point about the map's inauthenticity based solely, and strongly on the inaccurate gridding argument.

Fail.

In fact, fail of such epic proportions that Ben-Hur himself would take a step back and say "Whoa" when he saw it.

The LAM-2 flown map is not a single image it's a photomosaic map comprised of multiple photo runs from an LRO.

The rest of the rubbish about grids etc had already been dealt with by others.
 
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Collins was not able to locate the Eagle with his sextant because HE DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHERE TO LOOK.

That point has never been in dispute.

The only way Collins could have seen the spacecraft is through the navigational sextant. That sextant has to be aimed by typing in settings relative to the spacecraft's own orientation, and that orientation in turn has to be precisely set up. Houston called up its best guesses for spacecraft orientation, in the form of roll, pitch, and yaw angles. And they called up their best estimates for sextant settings in the form of shaft and trunnion angles.

He knew the landmarks, but he also knew the LM could be anywhere among them, and that it would appear only as a tiny dot anyway. The sextant is not something you can just pay across the surface like a pirate's spyglass. It's either where he points the sextant via the entered angles, or it isn't.

Now that is LOST

In what sense? Because one person in an orbiting platform armed only with fixed navigational optics couldn't see it as he was speeding past?

Sheesh, how many times are you going to grasp at that straw?

and it is come from a very reputable historian. One of the best most would say. Interesting? No?

No, just you continuing to try to make a mountain out of a mole hill.
 
My point was/is simple.......The Federal Budget in 1961 was 94 billion dollars. NASA Chief Webb informed JFK 20 billion to 40 billion dollars was what a moon/Apollo Project would cost. Averaging to 30 billion, I pointed out this was roughly one third of a 1961 annual Federal Budget. Now these are the facts. You can read them any way you like. I view this as ridiculously expensive, to spend one third of an annual Federal Budget spread out over 11 years for a super iffy program, fancy technical toy.

As such, I concluded NASA had to be military from the get go. You couldn't ask for this kind of cash, get it for a civilian project.

Disagree all you like, my numbers are correct regardless of your opinion as to what they mean.

What part of "The NASA Director presented the budget of a proposed program to the President (who would later present it to Congress)" do you not understand?

I've made plenty of proposals at a number of facilities. Very few of those proposals remained at those numbers through the approval and budgeting process.

Heck...I've got on my desk right now a rough cost estimate for an idea. I totaled up the most expensive components, added 50%, and rounded off to $300. I suppose in your world I should just submit an invoice for $300 right now and be done with it!

Oh, and by the way, the GNP was not static in 1961, nor projected to remain that way. No-one at the level of the two gentlemen in your conversation would ever assume a project budget based on straight-line percentage.
 
In his book, EXPLORING THE MOON(The Apollo Expeditions) Harland wrote that Collins was not able to locate the Eagle with his sextant because HE DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHERE TO LOOK. Now that is LOST, and it is come from a very reputable historian. One of the best most would say. Interesting? No?

So what?

Collins on the CM had no way to know how far Armstrong had overshot the intended landing zone. All he knew was that the LM was inside the landing ellipse.

That is a lot of ground to cover while in lunar orbit, hurtling along with the landing ellipse only visible for a proportion of each orbit.

Why do you find that odd?

And the author of your quotation confirms that we did indeed go.
 
Yes Laton, as above, I am letting go of this particular claim.

Take a look at that image Patrick. See those marks down the side?

Those are frame reference and fiducial marks that are part of the image negative. The image you have selected is obviously part of a camera run that has been scanned along its length and put up on the net in an orientation that makes it easy to view. The problem you are having is that you're viewing an image completely out of context and trying to draw conclusions from that.

So what would you like?

For NASA to put every image up in its exact orientation as taken?
or for each image to be in its correct, rectified geographic position & orientation?
or will you now insist that each image is shown exactly as it was taken?

Because based on the numbering of those fiducials and the orientation of that image, if that last option is the path you go down you are contending that the LRO's orbited in a South to North direction? :rolleyes:




Fail.

In fact, fail of such epic proportions that Ben-Hur himself would take a step back and say "Whoa" when he saw it.

The LAM-2 flown map is not a single image it's a photomosaic map comprised of multiple photo runs from an LRO.

The rest of the rubbish about grids etc had already been dealt with by others.

Yes Laton, as per a previous post of mine above, I am letting go of this particular claim. I cannot be certain in any sense as to where the LAM-2 image comes from, so it doesn't make sense for me to press the rotation point.

On the other hand, the Apollo 11 LAM-2 Flown Map is gridded with the longitude lines roughly 4 minutes of arc too far west, simply look at Grolier's map previously referred to and compare.

Also, my point about the referencing, using the letters for latitude and the numbers for longitude on the LAM-2 Map, that point is very significant. The Apollo Command Module Computer does not read K 0.2 and 5.6 and Collins could not accurately convert K 0.2 to 5.6 to flown Map degrees/minutes/seconds readily. K 0.2 and 5.6 is gibberish for the computer, and so is further proof of Apollo 11 Mission fraudulence.

The map is "fake" for the previous reasons that I gave. If I can find the source image for the LAM-2 Map, I may say something again, make a claim, about rotation, but there is no need, the map is inauthentic regardless for reasons as mentioned above, and I may never find the source photo.
 
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How would you copewith a Marine navigation Chart? It doesn't have any grid lines. Or one of the Old 'Decca' charts with 3 sets of curving grid lines?
 
Also, my point about the referencing, using the letters for latitude and the numbers for longitude on the LAM-2 Map, that point is very significant. The Apollo Command Module Computer does not read K 0.2 and 5.6 and Collins could not accurately convert K 0.2 to 5.6 to flown Map degrees/minutes/seconds readily.


Of course he could and within a matter of seconds. The map had a latitude and longitude grid as well as the alphanumeric grid. Plot the alphanumeric grid then pick off the lat and long. Easy.
 
That is a lot of ground to cover while in lunar orbit, hurtling along with the landing ellipse only visible for a proportion of each orbit.

From a previous post, it appears Patrick has a romantic notion that the "sextant" Michael Collins used was some sort of handheld device, perhaps equivalent to the navigator's sextant or quadrant. The classic astronomer's sextant works according the same principle, but is generally fixed and sited so as to provide both a location and orientation reference.

Fundamentally all sextants provide the same service: measure the angle between some desired line of sight and some reference direction. In the case of the Command Module sextant, the reference angle is a boresight perpendicular to the spacecraft skin. That angle in turn is referenced to great precision with the spacecraft structural axis.

Here is the guidance platform from an Apollo command module, removed from the rest of the spacecraft structure. I've had the opportunity to inspect this particular item at great length and look through it.

http://www.nasm.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?id=A19761254000

This is the guidance assembly seen from the side. It forms the "floor" of the CM cabin if the CSM is oriented horizontally and the crew is heads-up in their couches. In the launch orientation, it would be the far wall of the CM cabin, across from the hatch.

Outboard is to the left; inboard is to the right. The upper half is the sextant. The outboard (left) side shows the windows through which the sextant sees. This assembly lies just inside the CM outer skin. The wiring harnesses at lower left are positioned where they can be worked on by technicians prior to launch, through the access ports around the lower rim of the spacecraft.

The inboard (right) side shows the sextant eyepiece. Behind it, out of view, is the optics control joystick.

The lower portion of this assembly, the bulkier section, contains the IMU (the gyroscopes etc. of the guidance platform) and the computer processor. There is also a duplicate DSKY (computer console) on this panel. As you can see, the structure is extremely robust. This is because the IMU and the optics must maintain a very high degree of angular fidelity throughout the mission. The difference between the orientation of the optics bearings and that of the IMU bearings cannot vary by more than about 1/1000 degree throughout the mission.

The large wheels on the near side are for ground calibration of the IMU and sextant.

The 28X sextant can be positioned relative to the IMU reference frame to an extremely high degree of reportable precision -- again, to approximately 1/1000 degree. This is done by driving the shaft-and-trunnion bearings of the optics to known positions. Normally that is done by placing the desired S-T bearing angles into Noun 92. However, several guidance programs automate this based on mission phase. Program P22 does this when the AGC is in an orbit around Earth or Moon, and thus the nouns containing orbital elements are known to be populated with good data. Programs such as P22 rely on the navigator first using routines R57 (zero the optics) and R52 (auto command optics).

The optics can be positioned semi-manually using the joystick to the navigator's right. While looking through the sextant eyepiece he can drive the shaft/trunnion servos at a fixed rate, much like panning a remote security camera. The resulting S-T angles are fed back into the computer.

P22 attempts to update the state vector and orbital elements based on a ground-track reference and precise time of intercept. It takes as its arguments a reference landmark whose coordinates on Earth or Moon are known, the desired spacecraft attitude (to which the navigator will position the spacecraft by sending appropriate commands to the autopilot), the desired sextant orientation relative to the final spacecraft position, and a set of mission timer readings. The "three miles south" data I'll cover later.

At MET (mission elapsed time) 110:18:39, Houston calls up the P22 data to Collins: "P22 landmark ID, LM. Tl, 110:26:56. T2, 110:32:06. Three miles south. Time of closest approach, 110:33:40. Shaft, 353.855. Trunnion, 46.495."

The flight plan, p. 3-86, has the PAD frame for this operation. The landing site as originally programmed is filled in already, and these are the values Collins punched in for Noun 89 -- the planetary coordinates of the desired landmark. But that's not where the LM was. T1 is the MET when the landmark is expected to be visible on the horizon. T2 is when the landmark is expected to be in the sextant field of view -- a mere six minutes after heaving into naked-eye view. The sextant shaft and trunnion angles are given.

Houston also calls up the reference spacecraft attitude: "Roll, zero. Pitch, 250. Yaw zero." Collins entered this into the autopilot to cause the spacecraft to maneuver to the appropriate attitude, so that the optics angles would be valid. Keep in mind that the spacecraft maintains a space-fixed orientation while in orbit, so through the sextant Collins is going to see the moonscape whizzing by. This is why the PAD calls for Collins to look ahead a bit in the ground track, rather than use the point of closest approach. Although he'll be seeing his landmark at an angle rather than from more directly overhead, he is less likely to miss it since it will be moving slower through his field of view.

Collins only has a few seconds to see if he can see the LM within the field of view, with those settings. Ordinarily, in P22, he would use the MARK command to designate the exact instant the landmark passed through the sextant reticule, and P22 uses the difference between expected time and actual time to derive new orbital elements. But since the location of the landmark is uncertain, Collins won't do that; he'll just try to see if the LM can be seen in the optics.

He can move the sextant slightly from the programmed position using the joystick. But the optics slew at a fixed rate -- a very slow one. This is because the main purpose of the sextant is to align the guidance platform, not search planetary surfaces. And he's on a moving platform, so he can't ask it to stand still while he pans and tilts the optics slowly to cover a larger area.

Normally the alignment procedure works like this. The navigator commands the spacecraft to a certain attitude. Naturally that attitude is reckoned according to the guidance platform and may not reflect real life. Then he commands the optics to focus on one of a couple dozen stars whose direction in the space-fixed reference frame is known. Conversationally stated, the computer muses: "If my attitude is correct, then that star should be at this specific direction from my spacecraft axis. Here are the appropriate S-T to point the sextant to it."

If everything is correct, the navigator should see the reference star centered in the sextant reticule. But typically the platform drifts over time, so the star will (hopefully) be in the field of view, but perhaps not centered. So the navigator operates the optics control joystick to center the star, then presses the MARK command. The computer picks up the new S-T angles and understands that the platform is off by just that much angle, and adjusts its reference matrix accordingly.

Do that twice using two stars separated by right angles and you'll have aligned your platform in all three cardinal axes. But because fine alignment requires the star to be very precisely centered in the crosshairs, the joystick drive is necessarily very slow. Accuracy is important here, not speed.

In P22 the reference is moving through the field of view. You can't make it stop while you fiddle with the joystick. So that's why the "three miles south" statement is given. The landmark may be slightly to the north or south of the telescope's ground track, and so the sextant is steered for P22 so that only the major dimension of motion is considered. (When you pass a mile marker on the freeway, it doesn't matter what lane you're in. Lateral differences aren't important.) So the CAPCOM tells Collins to look for his landmark three miles south of the reticule track; it's the time-track of the westward motion that's important here.

Patrick first wants to make a big deal out of Harland's statement that Collins "didn't know where to look," and that this degree of misplacement constitutes some proof for fraud. From the above description it should be clear that one can't simply scan the surface leisurely with the sextant like a pair of binoculars. In order to see something through the sextant from orbit, you need to have an already good idea where it is. All you can do, in the brief time and through the narrow field of view you have, is confirm whether it was seen or not. You can't systematically search the landing ellipse.

And so the response remains, "so what?" Asking Collins to use his tools to do something they weren't designed to do doesn't make a case for fraud.

Patrick also wants to make a big deal out of the inability to use surface reference map coordinates as direct input into P22. He says that's somehow proof of fraud. But P22 works for Earth too, as it was meant to. The CSM wants also to navigate in Earth orbit, especially prior to TLI. And P22 can use terrestrial coordinates on Earth, not just coordinates on the lunar surface. So the common input format for Noun 89 is the latitude, longitude, and geodetic altitude of the landmark, not some application-specific map-marking scheme.

Conversely the LAM maps were not for CSM navigation, but for ground reference only. It being the only way for Collins to mark his candidate LM sightings, matched visually, those were the coordinates he read back down to Houston. There was no easy way to capture them in terms of latitude and longitude, or S-T/time references. He saw a feature at a certain place he visually matched to locations on his familiarization chart, and called those down accordingly.

And there was never any need or plan to use LAM maps for navigation references for P22. Coordinates for P22 would always have been provided by some other means, especially since P22 would use landmarks that weren't on the LAM charts.

So as usual, Patrick is inventing new "requirements" for Apollo and then trying to cry fraud when his personal expectations aren't met -- Apollo was allegedly fake because the sextant wasn't also a ground-search telescope, and Apollo was allegedly fake because the computer didn't work the way he thinks it should have.

And the author of your quotation confirms that we did indeed go.

This is always an amusing rail split. Hoax theorists cite well-known authors as authority for the little tidbits that feed into their theories, but omit entirely that these authors disagree with the hoax believer's theory at large. So we're supposed to respect Harland when supposedly decries the horror of Collins being unable to sight the LM, but he doesn't have to respect Harland when the man's overall conclusion is that the Moon landings are genuine.

Very disingenuous, Patrick!
 
My point was/is simple.......The Federal Budget in 1961 was 94 billion dollars. NASA Chief Webb informed JFK 20 billion to 40 billion dollars was what a moon/Apollo Project would cost. Averaging to 30 billion, I pointed out this was roughly one third of a 1961 annual Federal Budget. Now these are the facts. You can read them any way you like. I view this as ridiculously expensive, to spend one third of an annual Federal Budget spread out over 11 years for a super iffy program, fancy technical toy.


Well, we could read it anyway we want but we choose to read it as government budgets are normally read. I'm a budget and administrative professional employed by the Government. Your way of looking at it simply has no place in budget analysis, if one expects to come up with meaningful numbers. If you want to make a proportional analysis of funds expended over multiple fiscal years compared to the total funds appropriated, you must compare them to the sum of appropriations in all of those fiscal years, at the agency or federal level, depending on which pie you want to slice. Otherwise, you're just playing fast and loose with the numbers to make your case look better.

And once again, your 1961 budget number is about 3% low.

But worse still, refer to my previous post where I provided budget references and you'll find that your raw figure of $30B is more than 1.5 times the actual expeditures totalling $19.4B. That's what happens when you use the average of pre-expenditure estimates when the actual numbers are known. Your error is compounded further by citing the wrong number of fiscal years; 11 instead of the 13 FYs in which Apollo funds were expended...if we don't count the paltry $100K appropriated in FY1960. Breaking it down to a per-fiscal-year basis, your number is >1.8 times actual, on average.

Your numbers aren't even good enough to grace the back of an envelope or a cocktail napkin.
 
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