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Are Agnostics Welcome Here?

dlorde said:
A security blanket in a random and capricious world? an imaginary friend and father figure to talk to and confide in and whose rules structure your life, and who can forgive your indiscretions - what's not to like :D

It reminds me of Linus with his blanket, in the Charlie Brown strip.
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Seriously- why are so many on here so condescending and negative? This does not even deserve a response.
 
Nicole Friedman said:
You're probably right. The more I read posts by atheists on here, the more I want to believe in God:} It's funny; I don't think it's even the competitive spirit in the spirit of the debate- something is touching a nerve with me. I'm not there yet though as I have too many doubts and questions; therefore I'm still an agnostic. I never took agnosticism to mean that you need to be "exactly in the middle". I think that it's only natural for a person to alter their beliefs throughout their life.
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I have to laugh because I've said the same thing. I've turned into a theist (or maybe an agnostic theist, I'm not sure); if I keep reading threads in Religion and Philosophy, I think I'll turn into a Christian.:D
 
Nicole Friedman said:
Seriously- why are so many on here so condescending and negative? This does not even deserve a response.
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So, if God isn't useful in the way I described, how is it useful?

I was brought up in a Catholic environment, but I never found the concept of God useful beyond being an imaginary friend and father figure to talk to and confide in as a child, whose rules structured my life, and who could forgive my indiscretions. When I got to the age where I started thinking about these things for myself, I realised none of it was really meaningful, necessary, or relevant to my life.
 
dlorde said:
Nicole Friedman said:
For the umpteenth time, I'm open to the idea that there may be a higher form of intelligence somewhere in this universe- I am not limiting the possibility to the description of God in the Torah or any other scripture.
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Me too - surely in this huge universe there are creatures more intelligent than us. I don't really see what that has to do with the impossible fictional inventions of religious books.
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Quite true dlorde. Nicole would you consider any higher intelligence to be god or is there some specific criteria?
 
jdp said:
Quite true dlorde. Nicole would you consider any higher intelligence to be god or is there some specific criteria?
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I think that it's obvious I'm not talking about aliens but some higher force/intelligence that is either behind the creation of our universe or is intricately part of it. I can't define it more than that because if there is anything out there, I don't want to limit my definition of it.
 
dlorde said:
So, if God isn't useful in the way I described, how is it useful?

I was brought up in a Catholic environment, but I never found the concept of God useful beyond being an imaginary friend and father figure to talk to and confide in as a child, whose rules structured my life, and who could forgive my indiscretions. When I got to the age where I started thinking about these things for myself, I realised none of it was really meaningful, necessary, or relevant to my life.
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God may not be useful to you but I can guarantee you that God can be useful to MANY people, myself included. I think I can understand at least somewhat where you're coming from because I've known many people who went to Yeshiva and a few to Catholic school- and several of them have had the same adverse reaction to what they were taught like you did. The problem with a lot of those type of schools is that if you don't believe exactly as you're taught, you often are treated as an outcast. I find it especially troubling in Yeshivas because in Judaism you're supposed to question; the Talmud is full of arguments for crying out loud:} Have you ever even heard of rabbis who agree with each other? :} And yet, my ex-boyfriend used to come home crying from his high school because he was picked on- because his family was not super-duper kosher like his peers. I hope you realize that these experiences, while by far not exceptions, are also not the only examples of what it means to be religious. I was literally frightened of religious Jews for years due to the experiences of the people I knew. However, I've found out that not all religious people are alike. I joined my local synagogue with my husband with a LOT of reservations (my agnosticism was only a small part of it compared with my fear of religious people) but I was welcomed with open arms by almost everyone I met. A lot of the congregants, my husband included make it a point to attend shiva services for people who have lost loved ones- whether they knew the person or not- if only to be there for members of the community. That's what being religious should be about, at least in my opinion; just be a good person. That's why I would consider a good atheist a better Jew than a religious Jew who is an a**hole.
 
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Piggy said:
1. No, not at all. By definition a god, in its entirety, would be expected to be beyond human comprehension. But that's not the issue. What's at issue is a god that cannot by any potential means be detected... in other words, one which has no connection with our world at all. That god cannot be "real", cannot "exist".
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Well I don't know how you arrive at "cannot by any potential means be detected". Are you privy to future scientific developments?

It sounds like your referring to a gap god argument. Such discussions are machinations of the human mind, as such they fall into the category of "what humanity has to say on the issue".

Gods may exist or not irrespective of what humanity has to say about it. This also applies to ways in which they might interact with known existence.



2. Huh?
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The fundamental basis of existence is a mystery to humanity, including any gods involved.
The entirety of human knowledge and understanding describes things only as they appear to be and can be detected with tools(instruments).

Do you acknowledge humanity's short comings on this issue?
 
Nicole Friedman said:
Feel free to disagree with me but I do not appreciate the condescending tone to your reply (i.e. "cute), which many others on here seem to feel liberty to do. If you want to debate, do it like an adult.
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The tone was not condescending: it was descriptive of the Disney version of the unicorn.
How could you possibly take offence at that?
You say you want to believe in God, that you are open to the possibility, but are very vague about what the god you want to believe in is.
Are you open to the possibility that unicorns exist? ... either the original version or the cute Disney version.
 
dlorde said:
Me too - surely in this huge universe there are creatures more intelligent than us. I don't really see what that has to do with the impossible fictional inventions of religious books.
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Creatures more intelligent that us is not the thing one thinks of when god fiction is the subject.
 
Piggy said:
We've both noted that.

And those on the strong atheist side are also interested in whether or not they exist, period.
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Have you realised yet that there is no way of establishing their existence or not.

What we're objecting to, however, is the repeated proposal of gods that, by their very definition, can't be said to "exist" or to be "real", unless we allow that "real" can mean the same thing as "not real" and "exist" can mean the same thing as "doesn't exist".
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Gap gods again, this issue is a matter of examining concepts of gods in the human mind, not much else.
 
Nicole Friedman said:
That's what being religious should be about, at least in my opinion; just be a good person.
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I disagree. Being religious is believing in the tenets of a particular religion and involves believing in a deity.
Just being a good person has nothing to do with religion.
 
punshhh said:
Have you realised yet that there is no way of establishing their existence or not....
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Have you realized that once you recognize god beliefs are all based on fiction there is no need to ask if gods are real? Do you equally wonder or speculate if Harry Potter's world is real?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
So every Jew has the same traditions?
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Have I said that? I said "Jewish by religion". Is there a better word? "Judaist"? :)

The point is that the tradition is rooted in Judaism and she obviously shared it. Is there a point you're trying to make? This is getting tedious.
 
dlorde said:
Trent Wray said:
Suppose we are merely trapped in a probabilistic causality, but causality in and of itself has no "will". We could then be said to be serving something else's purpose in a limited fashion, as our choices are limited, which itself has no purpose (causality) and furthermore the idea of making our own choices is also limited and thus an illusion.
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That's not a definition of 'purpose' that I recognise. ISTM if causality has no will or purpose, then we are serving neither will nor purpose.
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Yes I was trying to show it's basically an illusion "on both ends" ... not only do we not have "free will", but we also are serving neither will nor purpose by being limited within causality, although the illusion we are serving the "will of causality" might be there.

I was saying what you are saying ... but giving credence to the illusion for it's analogous use whilst still trying to point out the illusion itself.
 
Nicole Friedman said:
You're probably right. The more I read posts by atheists on here, the more I want to believe in God:} It's funny; I don't think it's even the competitive spirit in the spirit of the debate- something is touching a nerve with me. I'm not there yet though as I have too many doubts and questions; therefore I'm still an agnostic. I never took agnosticism to mean that you need to be "exactly in the middle". I think that it's only natural for a person to alter their beliefs throughout their life.
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Nicole Friedman said:
I think that it's obvious I'm not talking about aliens but some higher force/intelligence that is either behind the creation of our universe or is intricately part of it. I can't define it more than that because if there is anything out there, I don't want to limit my definition of it.
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Nicole Friedman said:
God may not be useful to you but I can guarantee you that God can be useful to MANY people, myself included. I think I can understand at least somewhat where you're coming from because I've known many people who went to Yeshiva and a few to Catholic school- and several of them have had the same adverse reaction to what they were taught like you did. The problem with a lot of those type of schools is that if you don't believe exactly as you're taught, you often are treated as an outcast. I find it especially troubling in Yeshivas because in Judaism you're supposed to question; the Talmud is full of arguments for crying out loud:} Have you ever even heard of rabbis who agree with each other? :} And yet, my ex-boyfriend used to come home crying from his high school because he was picked on- because his family was not super-duper kosher like his peers. I hope you realize that these experiences, while by far not exceptions, are also not the only examples of what it means to be religious. I was literally frightened of religious Jews for years due to the experiences of the people I knew. However, I've found out that not all religious people are alike. I joined my local synagogue with my husband with a LOT of reservations (my agnosticism was only a small part of it compared with my fear of religious people) but I was welcomed with open arms by almost everyone I met. A lot of the congregants, my husband included make it a point to attend shiva services for people who have lost loved ones- whether they knew the person or not- if only to be there for members of the community. That's what being religious should be about, at least in my opinion; just be a good person. That's why I would consider a good atheist a better Jew than a religious Jew who is an a**hole.
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I was preparing some very longwinded and most likely to be ignored responses to your above posts.

But then two guys posted links to two youtube videos that would do a much more cogent response to your posts than I ever could have.

I beseech you to PLEASE watch and listen to every word in the two videos posted in
and

I think you might see a lot of poignant facts in them that impact on the views you express in the above assertions of yours.
 
Nicole,

I also very much suggest that you watch this video series.

It is a set of many videos telling the story of a very fundamentalist guy who slowly through REASON and skepticism turned into an agnostic and then how he went all the way to atheist.

The story is VERY POWERFUL and touching as well as VERY WELL DONE.

Please take the time to watch the whole set. The link is to the first in the set and the videos should flow automatically into the next part once one part is finished.

But....really Nicole..... I think the most irrefutable rebuttal to YHWH and Judaism is this book.... I hope you can actually spend the time to read at least the first 8 parts of it.

ALSO..... I hope you can make the effort to read these books:



The stories about loss of faith are Christian....however you will find them very relevant to Judaism too.





 
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Nicole Friedman said:
Seriously- why are so many on here so condescending and negative? This does not even deserve a response.
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And yet you responded.

People are condescending here for several reasons: because theists are usually nonresponsive to evidence, reason, and polite discourse; because they are themselves condescending; because they come here claiming to be agnostics although they are really fundamentalists or creationists. You know, that kind of thing.
 
Nicole Friedman said:
God may not be useful to you but I can guarantee you that God can be useful to MANY people, myself included.
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I understand that you believe that. What I'd like to know is, apart from the reasons I gave previously (that you dismissed as condescending, negative, and undeserving of response), how is God useful to you or the MANY people you referred to?

I would consider a good atheist a better Jew than a religious Jew who is an a**hole.
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I presume you meant better person?
 
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