Religion is not evil

[westprog]

So if I'm getting this right,

Individuals often do good in the name of their religion.
Individuals often do evil in the name of their religion.

Seems to me that the religion should take credit for both, or neither. Either way it's not a good argument for religion, because in the latter case it's unnecessary and in the former case it tends to drop the ball on discouraging evil behavior within its ranks.

Religion itself is not evil. But it does either obfuscate or shelter evil, neither of which is very much better.

And it should also not be blamed for evil that religious people do that is against the precepts of their religion, any more than atheism should be blamed for evil things that atheists happen to do.

 

[the PC apeman]

Simply because you say atheism is not a believe does not make that statement true. Until science can prove that God does not exist, atheism is a belief.

Oh dear. You may wish to add a seat belt. Be strong.

 

[westprog]

It's a cult in my book because it trys to brainwash people.

Oh yes, one of those irregular verbs.

I provide objective information, you attempt to persuade people, he brainwashes.

 

[Nicole Friedman]

Which God do you believe has not been disproven?

The idea of a a higher intelligence anywhere in this universe. And it has not been disproven because the very definition of God means that it's unknowable with our limited human senses. Now you can obviously choose to think that this idea is nonsense, but you cannot disprove it.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

Read what I said carefully. Expressing your views during a debate is one thing. But to tell an individual who lost a loved one, who has hope that their loved one is in a better place, that their beliefs are BS- what you are doing is simply and utterly wrong

Isn't that what religion does every single day to followers of other religions or none at all?

Is it not 'simply and utterly wrong' to tell people their loved ones will suffer eternal torment and torture if they don't do what their God wants?

Personally, if people enjoy and prefer to be incorrect then that's up to them. Believe what they want. That doesn't make them less incorrect.

If people want to discuss their beliefs with me I will not withhold my opinion simply because their beliefs make them feel better.

If people want to use their beliefs to start dictating what is and isn't OK for people other than themselves then they will be told where to go.

 

[Dinwar]

But to tell an individual who lost a loved one, who has hope that their loved one is in a better place, that their beliefs are BS- what you are doing is simply and utterly wrong.

There's etiquet to consider, yes--but saying that there is an afterlife merley to comfort someone is equally wrong, and using such a false belief to extort money out of them (tithe, for example) or to exert political control (the lamas of Tibett, the Church of the Middle Ages, the various Islamic factions in the Middle East) is beyond contemptable.

In other words, telling someone who's experiencing tragedy that there's no afterlife is akin to explaining anatomy to someone with a sucking chest wound: you're not wrong, but now is not the time. Arguing that there is an afterlife, without any evidence, is wrong.

 

[westprog]

This fallacy? You do understand that this line of thinking is what allows the cycle of human suffering to persist, right?

What, recognising the horrendous suffering of people who we can't actually see every day perpetuates suffering? I would have thought the reverse - that it's down to not caring about the people we can't see nearly as much as the ones we can. One crying child in a supermarket will upset us. Ten thousand starving children in Africa don't.

 

[Dinwar]

Is it not 'simply and utterly wrong' to tell people their loved ones will suffer eternal torment and torture if they don't do what their God wants?

I've seen it destroy families--someone leaves the religion, and their family becomes vicious, attacking them constantly for it.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

The idea of a a higher intelligence anywhere in this universe. And it has not been disproven because the very definition of God means that it's unknowable with our limited human senses. Now you can obviously choose to think that this idea is nonsense, but you cannot disprove it.

Ah so you are going for the 'meaningless definition' get out.

What do you actually mean by 'higher intelligence' and how is it a 'God'.

What 'very definition' of God are you referring to?

If it's unknowable it doesn't exist, by definition.

 

[westprog]

Is atheism not a belief?

No, it isn't. Nor is religion a belief. But all religious people have beliefs - i.e. specific religions - and most atheists have some kind of belief system. A lot of beliefs are common to atheists and the religious.

If you look straight ahead, and ignore what you don't want to see, you can convince yourself that all the harm comes from the beliefs in the bin marked "religion".

 

[westprog]

Western democracies (U.S. included) are becoming more and more secular; there is a pushback against religion and the wish-thinking inextricably linked with it. Are you going to punch us all in the face?

She says "let people believe what they want" and that is immediately translated into "you want to punch us in the face".

Sometimes on this forum it's as if the posts are from very simple word recognition scripts.

 

[Mudcat]

Simply because you say atheism is not a believe does not make that statement true.

Actually, yes it does. Atheism is the lack of belief of a god or system of gods and you are an atheist too... you don't believe in Thor, do you?

Until science can prove that God does not exist, atheism is a belief.

Again you have it backwards. It is precisely the absence of evidence that provides evidence of absence.

Let's say for a moment you are a scientist who doesn't believe that Atlantis ever existed despite what evidence may exist that supports it's existence. You can't go looking for evidence it didn't exist because if it didn't exist the evidence for it not existing can't possibly exist.

What you do is examine the evidence of its supposed existence and come up with reasonable alternatives. Which is what we skeptics have been doing for a long time now.

*snip*

I can't speak for others but I don't go up to grieving widows or other such family members (or anyone else who may be grieving for the deceased) and tell them that their beliefs are wrong. Though there is a certain group of religious individuals who like to protest at funerals and proclaim (at a large volume and vehemence) how wrong the deceased are and how they are going to burn in hell for all eternity.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

What's wrong with letting people have their beliefs?

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't agree that its OK to let people have their belief that all Jews should be exterminated, or that God wants them to fly planes into buildings and to leave them unchallenged.

People have beliefs about homosexuality, race, abortion, contraception, medical care, etc that I'm not going to leave unchallenged either. In some cases these beliefs stem from their religion (in others not) but I'm not going to give them some special treatment because of that.

I'm particularly not going to respect beliefs because of a threat of a punch in the face.

 

[Mudcat]

What, recognising the horrendous suffering of people who we can't actually see every day perpetuates suffering? I would have thought the reverse - that it's down to not caring about the people we can't see nearly as much as the ones we can. One crying child in a supermarket will upset us. Ten thousand starving children in Africa don't.

I don't think people don't care per say, but they don't want to see it. It allowed things like the Holocaust to happen. I think seeing it means that they have to recognize that it's happening, which would make them feel uncomfortable.

 

[Nicole Friedman]

Isn't that what religion does every single day to followers of other religions or none at all?

Is it not 'simply and utterly wrong' to tell people their loved ones will suffer eternal torment and torture if they don't do what their God wants?

Personally, if people enjoy and prefer to be incorrect then that's up to them. Believe what they want. That doesn't make them less incorrect.

If people want to discuss their beliefs with me I will not withhold my opinion simply because their beliefs make them feel better.

If people want to use their beliefs to start dictating what is and isn't OK for people other than themselves then they will be told where to go.

How can you generalize all religions or the people who practice them? Of course people who preach hell and brimstone to nonbelievers are doing evil. I attend synagogue on occasion and believe me- that is NOT what my rabbi believes or tells the congregation. If it was, he'd be fired in a second.

 

[Nicole Friedman]

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't agree that its OK to let people have their belief that all Jews should be exterminated, or that God wants them to fly planes into buildings and to leave them unchallenged.

People have beliefs about homosexuality, race, abortion, contraception, medical care, etc that I'm not going to leave unchallenged either. In some cases these beliefs stem from their religion (in others not) but I'm not going to give them some special treatment because of that.

I'm particularly not going to respect beliefs because of a threat of a punch in the face.

You're generalizing beliefs which is preposterous; are you going to argue with an 8 year old who still believes in the tooth fairy? Some beliefs are extremely harmful- eradicate those. But others simply are not. Or they're in a "gray" area. If someone chooses to debate with you go ahead- but the idea that you need to eradicate all beliefs that YOU feel are wrong makes no sense.

 

[Mudcat]

How can you generalize all religions or the people who practice them? Of course people who preach hell and brimstone to nonbelievers are doing evil. I attend synagogue on occasion and believe me- that is NOT what my rabbi believes or tells the congregation. If it was, he'd be fired in a second.

Might wanna crack open the Torah than and be prepared to become very uncomfortable. Yahweh had commanded some very contemptible and bewildering things in the Torah, just take a look at commands throughout Leviticus for example.

And before you say "But, those were different times" let me ask, at what point in history do you think that it would be humane to slaughter an entire tribe for "worshiping a God our fathers did not know"? I would also like to point out the inherent contradiction that if you went far enough back through history Yahweh would have been a "God our fathers did not know."

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

How can you generalize all religions or the people who practice them? Of course people who preach hell and brimstone to nonbelievers are doing evil. I attend synagogue on occasion and believe me- that is NOT what my rabbi believes or tells the congregation. If it was, he'd be fired in a second.

I generalise because we are talking here in generalities as per the OP.

Of course your particular Rabbi may be a wonderful person who doesn't discriminate in any way shape or form against anyone. Just for my own interest, What's his view on inter-faith marriage? Same-sex marriage?

I'm glad he doesn't preach hell and brimstone. What does he say will happen to sinners who don't follow any of the rules of the religion? They get into Heaven anyway?

 

[Nicole Friedman]

There's etiquet to consider, yes--but saying that there is an afterlife merley to comfort someone is equally wrong, and using such a false belief to extort money out of them (tithe, for example) or to exert political control (the lamas of Tibett, the Church of the Middle Ages, the various Islamic factions in the Middle East) is beyond contemptable.

In other words, telling someone who's experiencing tragedy that there's no afterlife is akin to explaining anatomy to someone with a sucking chest wound: you're not wrong, but now is not the time. Arguing that there is an afterlife, without any evidence, is wrong.

How is it wrong unless you're being forced by gunpoint to believe in it? Last I checked, mosques, churches and synagogues have a door. What's wrong with people making up their own minds about what to believe or what not to believe? If you don't like what a religion has to say, walk out the door.

 

[Nicole Friedman]

I generalise because we are talking here in generalities as per the OP.

Of course your particular Rabbi may be a wonderful person who doesn't discriminate in any way shape or form against anyone. Just for my own interest, What's his view on inter-faith marriage? Same-sex marriage?

I'm glad he doesn't preach hell and brimstone. What does he say will happen to sinners who don't follow any of the rules of the religion? They get into Heaven anyway?

Judaism actually doesn't believe in hell and brimstone. There is one word to describe it; that's "red", or at least the translation I know of. A common interpretation is that the red stands for shame; everyone experiences the shame of the pain we caused others before we move on to heaven or whatever is out there. I have no idea if this is true or not but I like the idea.
As for my rabbi's personal beliefs, he absolutely believes in interfaith marriage (he'd prefer Jews marry other Jews to keep our numbers up but he realizes that love trumps all) and accepts homosexuality.