Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

Status
Not open for further replies.
RandFan said:
Some humans dealing with problems in a way many of us would disagree with.
Click to expand...
Yet another example of their misguided perspective. Either they are supporting vigilante justice or sweeping the whole thing away to avoid negative publicity and having to work with establishment that they revile. Pity the next woman that has a rape attempted or succeeded against her because the OWS didn't want to work with police to actually track down and apprehend the creep.
 
RandFan said:
Some humans dealing with problems in a way many of us would disagree with. shock, oh no, darn.
Click to expand...

Rape is not a "problem" that can be solved by shouting "mike check" a couple of times. It is a very serious crime. I have no difficulty seeing the likely outcome of trying to treat it internally; at first the lack of police investigation of the crime will encourage further rapes. Eventually a mob will decide to take matters into its own hands, and a lynching will occur.

Eventually disgust with lynching and the inevitable risk that an innocent will wind up dangling from the tree will cause a criminal justice system to evolve....

See the problem? As many others have pointed out, society has evolved to this point for good reasons. The idea that you can start over and not evolve to the same point is transparently absurd. In the interim, you have a lot of people damaged by this silly experiment.

"Let's tear it down and start all over again" is, or should be, antithetical to thoughtful liberals and conservatives.
 
Brainster said:
Rape is not a "problem" that can be solved by shouting "mike check" a couple of times.
Click to expand...
I don't claim that it is. I already said that I disagree with handling it internally so this isn't advancing the discussion.

See the problem?
Click to expand...
Who has been lynched?

As many others have pointed out, society has evolved to this point for good reasons.
Click to expand...
Sadly it's also evolved to allow bankers the ability to gamble with depositors money and when they lose all the money the public bails them out. Society has evolved to allow wealthy corporations to buy justice and ensure they get rich while the middle class and poor are getting squeezed out. 10 years of the eoncomy in the toilet. 10 years of low tax rates and loopholes for the rich. 10 years of the poor getting poorer and the rich getting richer.

You are blaming the wrong people. When you allow those conditions then society will break down. See history. I'll post the facts in the form of charts again in the hopes that you will maybe, just maybe figure out why this is happening.
 
RandFan said:
:rolleyes: Yes, it's much easier to malign and belittle than to have an honest discussion about the reasons they are protesting and what changes can or should happen.
Click to expand...

According to you we can't know what reasons they are protesting for because it isn't a monolithic movement and none of them can say or do anything that is any way representative of the movement. Citing any of their complaints would just be adding another anecdote. Sorry, but by your own standards the discussion you want to have is not possible.
 
IMO the problems of the protestors reflect a larger problem.

41 charts that paint the problem in sharp relief.

CHARTS: Here's What The Wall Street Protesters Are So Angry About
The "Occupy Wall Street" protests are gaining momentum, having spread from a small park in New York to marches to other cities across the country.

So far, the protests seem fueled by a collective sense that things in our economy are not fair or right. But the protesters have not done a good job of focusing their complaints—and thus have been skewered as malcontents who don't know what they stand for or want.
Click to expand...
Click here to see the charts>

"Let them eat cake" is as far as I can tell apocryphal. However, it is that sentiment you show when you choose to focus only on the excesses of the movement, serious as I admit they are. You are in effect treating those who have real grievances with the arrogance of "let them eat cake". JMO.
 
respect said:
According to you we can't know what reasons they are protesting...
Click to expand...
Given that I've listed a number of reasons that many have expressed then that's characterizing my point.

My point is that we can't speak for any of them. No, the group isn't monolithic. However many reasons for being there have been clearly defined. Some I strongly disagree with and have said so here. I don't want to end capitalism as many in the movement do. I do want to end govt corruption as many in the movement want also to end.

So, could you please stick with my actual arguments and skip the straw men? Look, it's possible I said something that was confusing or even, gasp, wrong. I've eaten crow in this thread already. If you have an example POST A QUOTE. If was wrong or inconsistent I'll apologize. So, quote me or please don't put words in my mouth. Isn't that fair?
 
Last edited:
Still more on the indecision front. This video highlights the apparent desire for the Occupy DC movement to secede from the union, but what I found more amusing was right at the beginning:

"We are working on a declaration. They have finished the preamble I read it last night and I cried, but even though there is a preamble at this time, they've only approved one sentence of it."
Click to expand...

I'd cry too if progress was that halting.

"It's a slow process, we're basically doing everything that the forefathers were doing in 1775 when they developed our constitution."
Click to expand...

Of course, he's off by about 12 years on the development of the constitution. Note again, the theme which we have discussed extensively in this thread; that the Occupy WS movement is trying to recreate a society from the ground up, and largely creating the same society they started with.
 
Brainster said:
Still more on the indecision front. This video highlights the apparent desire for the Occupy DC movement to secede from the union, but what I found more amusing was right at the beginning:



I'd cry too if progress was that halting.



Of course, he's off by about 12 years on the development of the constitution. Note again, the theme which we have discussed extensively in this thread; that the Occupy WS movement is trying to recreate a society from the ground up, and largely creating the same society they started with.
Click to expand...
 
Brainster said:
Note again, the theme which we have discussed extensively in this thread
Click to expand...
Note that discussing something extensively doesn't make it true.

...that the Occupy WS movement is trying to recreate a society from the ground up...
Click to expand...
Note that some, many, most (?) don't want to recreate a society from the ground up. They want govt to start taking the needs of most citizens seriously. To do something about the systemic corruption, lack of jobs and inertia in Washington.
 
Alt+F4 said:
My job has brought me down there a couple of times last week. What I saw in the park I would call disgusting. One of the protestors kept yelling, "Jews Run Wall Street!" Yeah, that was pretty disgusting too.
Click to expand...

Now where would anyone get the idea that "Jews run Wall Street"?
 
Alt+F4 said:
What I saw in the park I would call disgusting. One of the protestors kept yelling, "Jews Run Wall Street!" Yeah, that was pretty disgusting too.
Click to expand...
Disgusting. No way I could ever justify such behavior. It's wrong.

But I'm curious, what do such anecdotes demonstrate? For instance, what does the evidence for racism at the tea party protests demonstrate? Not tu quoque, again, the behavior is abhorrent period. I just want to know how we should treat such anecdotes?

TEA PARTY RACISM: What The Media Won't Show You About Teabagger Racism
ronaldjacksonX

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPEAXatvxvI&feature=related
 
RandFan said:
Wouldn't it be great if we actually fixed the system before revolution is seen as a viable option? I doubt there will be that kind of a revolution but the idea I find troubling. There's not a lot of good history for such things. So, let's proactively improve the lives of citizens rather than act like the fictionalized Marie Antoinette. Just a thought.
Click to expand...

In your opinion, RandFan, when is a Second American Revolution a viable option? How bad does it have to get for revolution: a certain unemployment percentage, overreaction by the police against the demonstrators, a political party in power showing indifference to the poor?
 
Alt+F4 said:
I do think a fix is in order but it appears that the OWS crowd is interested in neither a fix or a revolution to overthrow the government. It seems they want to replace current society with a new once based on some sort of direct democracy where all decisions are based on consensus. Note how much of their activity surrounds not around Wall Street but developing their "uptopia" in the park, where all voices are valid as long as you don't like Wall Street (as Checkmite pointed out).
Click to expand...

Why not give them free concert tickets to somewhere and just shut them up?
 
RandFan said:
I don't condone crime or uncivil behavior but I reject your broad brush strokes. As for their methods America was founded on cicil disobedience. If we champion mobs who threw tea in a harbor, if blacks could shut down a bus service or students sit in against the Vietnam war then we ought to extend a little bit of that here.
Click to expand...

Or send in the dogs and turn on the fire hoses.

What this country needs is a little "law and order".
 
RandFan said:
Note that discussing something extensively doesn't make it true.

Note that some, many, most (?) don't want to recreate a society from the ground up. They want govt to start taking the needs of most citizens seriously. To do something about the systemic corruption, lack of jobs and inertia in Washington.
Click to expand...

On the surface, that's what this movement is about but dig a little deeper and you'll find.

RESOLVED, that those participating in “Occupy Oakland” seek the genuine and respectful involvement of indigenous peoples in the rebuilding of a new society on their ancestral lands; and

Our local occupy group is planning on adopting this document and making it their own at tonight's general assembly.

This is why I'm critical of this movement and have been during the past several months during the run up. Yep, I read the radical left, daily. I want them to show me they can offer something "better" and sell me on their program.

So far, these activists haven't even entered the marketplace.
 
MaGZ said:
In your opinion, RandFan, when is a Second American Revolution a viable option? How bad does it have to get for revolution: a certain unemployment percentage, overreaction by the police against the demonstrators, a political party in power showing indifference to the poor?
Click to expand...
I've no idea. Seems reasonable to me to fix the problems rather than let it get to that point.
 
MaGZ said:
Or send in the dogs and turn on the fire hoses.

What this country needs is a little "law and order".
Click to expand...
I hear you my brother.

mullerwithheydrich.jpg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom