Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

[RandFan]

When a "movement" appears out of "nowhere"...

1. 10 years of an economic nightmare.
2. After 8 years a housing collapse started by corrupt financial institutions made possible in part due to deregulation.
3. Those who caused the mess were rewarded (we bailed them out and helped them to post record profits).
4. Congress refuses to raise taxes bringing our economy to the brink of default.
5. Instead of focusing on jobs the GOP is targeting women's reproductive health.

"Nowhere"? I want to know what took them so damn long?

 

[A Laughing Baby]

1. 10 years of an economic nightmare.
2. After 8 years a housing collapse started by corrupt financial institutions made possible in part due to deregulation.
3. Those who caused the mess were rewarded (we bailed them out and helped them to post record profits).
4. Congress refuses to raise taxes bringing our economy to the brink of default.
5. Instead of focusing on jobs the GOP is targeting women's reproductive health.

"Nowhere"? I want to know what took them so damn long?

I think his implication is that they should have been protesting sooner, and the fact that they weren't until now makes them either hypocrites or astroturf. I THINK.

edit: also Mitch McConnell, Senate Minority Leader, may have been lobbying to get his alma mater in the Big 12 this week, so the GOP isn't solely focused on reproductive issues!

 

[stilicho]

Not only was it not a sidestep I provided you with documentation for it.

You have me confused with some other body. I don't bitch when gas prices are high because I'm a capitalist and I like it when gas prices are low.

You are conflating two very different things.

1.) They should have been investigated when things "were going well". Because:
2.) Things were NOT going well. The economy can only grow so fast. But that wasn't fast enough for them so they commited fraud, wrote loans they knew were bad, packaged them with other good assets, sold them to unsuspecting investors and THEN bet against the investments (now I'll grant you that hedging investments is not per se unethical but in this case there's no question about it).

So, apples and oranges. I reject your assertion for good reason.

Assets are neither "good" nor "bad" but have various degrees of risk associated with turning them into cash. Mitigation of risk is a principle/policy that goes back to medieval banking systems. Pooling capital and pooling risk was what launched Lloyd's of London and the VOC. It's nothing new.

Specific individuals have been taken to court for lying about what was contained in specific and traceable transactions but of the world's trillions secured in such arrangements these are a drop in the bucket. The buyers were content to never ask a question because the returns were so much better than the zero per cent offered overnight.

My question is where do you stop? Do you want to outlaw covered derivatives? I think the legal channels used right now are ample to deal with proven and traceable fraudulent transactions or intentionally deceptive marketing practices. But I also think that the people who jumped at market-plus returns have to also be taken into account for their own irresponsibility.

Look at the market today. Do you really believe the S&P is worth 3% more than it was yesterday? Three per cent in one day? Where is the outrage? Where is the massive international investigation into this anamoly? If there isn't one then the OWS (and you and I for that matter) are simply hypocrites.

 

[stilicho]

1. 10 years of an economic nightmare.
2. After 8 years a housing collapse started by corrupt financial institutions made possible in part due to deregulation.
3. Those who caused the mess were rewarded (we bailed them out and helped them to post record profits).
4. Congress refuses to raise taxes bringing our economy to the brink of default.
5. Instead of focusing on jobs the GOP is targeting women's reproductive health.

"Nowhere"? I want to know what took them so damn long?

Well we don't have Republicans here in Canada so nobody here cares about telling women what to do with their bodies.

The people who used to work at Bear Stearns and Lehman Bros possibly wonder where their reward is. They sure didn't get one. There's this abiding misperception that everyone got bailed out when clearly they didn't. It was only once they realised that the entire global credit system had locked up that they had to act. One insider at Bank of England said that we were within about three hours of complete meltdown. Possibly an exaggeration for effect but it wouldn't surprise me.

That complete collapse of the housing market didn't happen in Canada either and we pay a risk premium for our regulations. Americans have loudly and almost uniformly declaimed against regulations. Is it really acceptable in the US to demand more government interference in your movements, actions, potential gains, potential losses? I'd thought it was almost in your Constitution to prohibit such a thing.


I'd balk at calling the past ten years a "nightmare". That description ought to be reserved for the Greatest Depression or any of a dozen of them stretching back into the 19th century. I can honestly state that the worst economic phase of my own lifespan was the "stagflation" of the 1970s. We've had nothing close to either of those conditions in the past ten years.

I can't do much for your other issues though. Congress is your baby.

 

[RandFan]

My question is where do you stop? Do you want to outlaw covered derivatives?

Oh, there is so much we can do. First, we need the Volker rule now. It's unbelievable we can't implement that. That would go a long way to solving problems. No more gambling with other people's money. Then, and this is a no brainier that began with the depression, Separate the entities. AIG should have never been allowed to blur lines between banking, investing and insurance. Same with with other institutions. Full transparency. Credit ratings from independent agencies for each of the investments. As for the rest, having read experts like Volker and journalists like Taibbi, I'd look to the Canadian system. There regulations would prevent this.

Look, it's a common tactic to scream that it's just not possible to solve these problems. BS, other nations do just fine.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

Well we don't have Republicans here in Canada so nobody here cares about telling women what to do with their bodies.

The people who used to work at Bear Stearns and Lehman Bros possibly wonder where their reward is. They sure didn't get one. There's this abiding misperception that everyone got bailed out when clearly they didn't.

I may not speak for everyone, but I don't really have any animosity toward Joe Analyst at Goldman Sachs. The main people that I feel got away with something terrible are the investors/executives who came up with the ideas of CDOs and sold them, the ratings agencies who were complicit in giving subprime-composed CDOs (and CDO-squareds) AAA ratings at the senior tranche purely due to accounting trickery, and the legislative bodies who deregulated the market, allowing this to happen. There has been no reconciliation, and there is likely not to be.

It was only once they realised that the entire global credit system had locked up that they had to act. One insider at Bank of England said that we were within about three hours of complete meltdown. Possibly an exaggeration for effect but it wouldn't surprise me.

He is likely not wrong. When Bear Stearns was forced into bankruptcy in America, international law was not considered. All assets held by a company in bankruptcy are frozen in the UK. This meant that all holdings in Bear Stearns UK branch could not be reached, leading to debts not being able to be paid, leading to the system spiralling. AIG was put on the hook for a LOT of credit default swaps as a result of this, and Goldman Sachs called them on something like 2-3 billion (with a b) in money owed with no leeway for time to collect the money. AIG was on the precipice of going under, and if they had gone under, there would have been a HUGE domino effect on global credit markets. We were really that close to global meltdown.

That complete collapse of the housing market didn't happen in Canada either and we pay a risk premium for our regulations. Americans have loudly and almost uniformly declaimed against regulations. Is it really acceptable in the US to demand more government interference in your movements, actions, potential gains, potential losses? I'd thought it was almost in your Constitution to prohibit such a thing.

SEGMENTS of America have spoken loudly against regulation. Other segments have spoken loudly for it. The money and lobbying power is in the deregulation camp (obviously), so that's where all the legislation has gone for 30 years now. It is acceptable legally to have higher government regulation, to the point that Teddy Roosevelt's trustbusting is something spoken highly of (or at least, it was) in history classes. The public sentiment is being swayed toward deregulation. There is room for debate as to what is causing that, and if it's in the public's best interests, but perhaps this is not the thread for that discussion.

 

[RandFan]

Well we don't have Republicans here in Canada...

Dude, I want what you got.

so nobody here cares about telling women what to do with their bodies.

Yeah, if you look up to the top right you will see this sub forum is entitled "USA Politics". This is about the USA so it's relevant but congrats anyway. The Republicans here succesfully use social issues to avoid dealing with important issues like jobs and criminal activity in financial institutions.

The people who used to work at Bear Stearns and Lehman Bros possibly wonder where their reward is. They sure didn't get one. There's this abiding misperception that everyone got bailed out when clearly they didn't.

BFD. Most of the worst DID.

That complete collapse of the housing market didn't happen in Canada either and we pay a risk premium for our regulations. Americans have loudly and almost uniformly declaimed against regulations. Is it really acceptable in the US to demand more government interference in your movements, actions, potential gains, potential losses? I'd thought it was almost in your Constitution to prohibit such a thing.

Yeah, you seem to be arguing in my favor. OWS want's what you have.

I'd balk at calling the past ten years a "nightmare".

I don't care what you would balk at. I've seen the suffering. I faced eviction. My mother lost her home and investments. I know people who have graduated college and can't get jobs. It's awful. It's rather arrogant of you to be sitting in Canada declaring it's not a nightmare. False consolation fallacy BTW. Just because things could be worse doesn't change the fact that things are bad.

 

[Ziggurat]

I know people who have graduated college and can't get jobs.

What is the relevance of them having graduated college?

 

[RandFan]

Assets are neither "good" nor "bad"...

An asset you purchase expecting to have a 5% return but in truth will lose money is bad. I know this. Accounting was my minor and I wrote financial software for two decades. Before I lost my job in 2009 I was an auditor for 8 years. My reports would actually state, "bad asset" if the asset would cost more to service or liquidate than it could possibly return then it was bad. Trivially true.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

Zig, I don't mean this in an insulting way, but your incredible ability to ignore an entire post and zero in on the one thing that you can argue ideology on consistently amazes me.

I think what Randfan is getting at there is the common conception that college graduates should have an easier time finding jobs than non-graduates. This has held statistically true for a good long while, but you are correct in that it shouldn't matter. And it doesn't. EVERY segment is suffering right now.

 

[RandFan]

I think his implication is that they should have been protesting sooner, and the fact that they weren't until now makes them either hypocrites or astroturf. I THINK.

gotcha. It's actually a valid point if they were simply protesting a downturn in the economy. And that probably is the case for some percentage and on that I'd actually agree with him. However it's the criminality and ownership of politicians by corporations and wall street that has many upset. Politicians want my vote but at the end of the day they will do what wall street tells them to do. I want that to stop.

edit: also Mitch McConnell, Senate Minority Leader, may have been lobbying to get his alma mater in the Big 12 this week, so the GOP isn't solely focused on reproductive issues!

 

[RandFan]

Zig, I don't mean this in an insulting way, but your incredible ability to ignore an entire post and zero in on the one thing that you can argue ideology on consistently amazes me.

I think what Randfan is getting at there is the common conception that college graduates should have an easier time finding jobs than non-graduates. This has held statistically true for a good long while, but you are correct in that it shouldn't matter. And it doesn't. EVERY segment is suffering right now.

I have zig on ignore. Yeah, I'll accept that. It is frustrating to spend a ton of money and bust your ass in school in the hopes of getting a good job and you can't even get a job period. I think there is something to that worth mentioning. The GOP certainly doesn't give a damn. We need to stop women from getting abortions.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Zig, I don't mean this in an insulting way, but your incredible ability to ignore an entire post and zero in on the one thing that you can argue ideology on consistently amazes me.

I think what Randfan is getting at there is the common conception that college graduates should have an easier time finding jobs than non-graduates. This has held statistically true for a good long while, but you are correct in that it shouldn't matter. And it doesn't. EVERY segment is suffering right now.

People with college educations are unemployed less right now, however.

 

[Virus]

1. 10 years of an economic nightmare.
2. After 8 years a housing collapse started by corrupt financial institutions made possible in part due to deregulation.
3. Those who caused the mess were rewarded (we bailed them out and helped them to post record profits).
4. Congress refuses to raise taxes bringing our economy to the brink of default.
5. Instead of focusing on jobs the GOP is targeting women's reproductive health.

"Nowhere"? I want to know what took them so damn long?

Still pretending these protests don't have left wing extremist organizations behind them? Still pretending these aren't the same guys that turn up to all the other anticapitalist protests?

 

[A Laughing Baby]

People with college educations are unemployed less right now, however.

Right. The distribution still holds in terms of unemployment rate by education level, but everyone is higher than their typical norm. Ideally, it should be the same (and low) for all segments.

 

[Ziggurat]

Zig, I don't mean this in an insulting way, but your incredible ability to ignore an entire post and zero in on the one thing that you can argue ideology on consistently amazes me.

Often much of the contents of a post are simply repetition of positions stated multiple times before, and I don't always find continued discussion on those points to be of any help or interest to me. Sometimes it's just one little bit of a post that catches my attention as being of interest.

I think what Randfan is getting at there is the common conception that college graduates should have an easier time finding jobs than non-graduates. This has held statistically true for a good long while, but you are correct in that it shouldn't matter. And it doesn't. EVERY segment is suffering right now.

Actually, I asked that question because I suspect there's more to his inclusion of that qualifier than just that. That other stuff is worth discussing, especially if I'm right about it being behind his inclusion of that qualifier, but I ask because I don't know for sure if it was. If he answers (and he may not - he might have me on ignore) then we can go from there.

 

[RandFan]

Still pretending these protests don't have left wing extremist organizations behind them? Still pretending these aren't the same guys that turn up to all the other anticapitalist protests?

Still pretending that this is a monolithic movement? Still using broad brush strokes and relying on anecdote to make a case?

 

[bikerdruid]

What is the relevance of them having graduated college?

an employer wants to hire someone that can demonstate commitment, and can accomplish a goal.
someone who has completed a four year degree shows several things:
-time management skills
-the ability to focus on several diverse topics at a time.
-the ability to stick to their commitment and completion.

seems to me that these are all positive things in an employee.

a kid applying for a job at mcdonalds that has completed high school, also demonstrates more to the employer than a high school drop-out.

 

[Ziggurat]

I have zig on ignore. Yeah, I'll accept that. It is frustrating to spend a ton of money and bust your ass in school in the hopes of getting a good job and you can't even get a job period. I think there is something to that worth mentioning. The GOP certainly doesn't give a damn. We need to stop women from getting abortions.

So I was right on two counts: you've put me on ignore (whatever), and there was indeed something more to your use of that qualifier. But the obvious conclusion has escaped your grasp. Those people got shafted alright, but they got shafted by their colleges and universities. They paid too much for a product that didn't deliver on its promises. You want to talk about systematic fraud committed against the American public? It's right under your nose.

Oh, but you can't really blame that on the GOP, can you?

 

[leftysergeant]

Still pretending these protests don't have left wing extremist organizations behind them? Still pretending these aren't the same guys that turn up to all the other anticapitalist protests?

Your definition of "left-wing extremists" is kind of off the mark. You seem to apply that to any movement that expects working people to be paid a decent day's provisions for a day's work.

The fact that the movement has spread in such great numbers in cities all over the country, with massive actions on the same day, argue against a single focus astroturf organization, like the teatards that the Koch roaches bused in from far and wide to hit specific targets..