Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

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RandFan said:
  1. Pass the Volker rule.
  2. Implement most if not all of the policies and regulations recommended by Elizabeth Warren without the loopholes and BS that neuters them.
  3. Increase tax rates with incentives to businesses who invest in domestic jobs.
  4. Pass Obama's jobs bill.
  5. DO SOMETHING other than attack women's reproductive health rights.
Really not all that hard actually. You do that today and most if not all of these people go home tomorrow.
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From an earlier post.
 
stilicho said:
What marginal tax rate would you consider appropriate for the top quintile? How about for yourself?
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I'm sorry, how did this become a discussion on tax policy again?

edit since I know where this is going to go and I'd rather get it out of the way now:

Assuming equivalent funding for social programs, I would say 65-70% for the top marginal tax bracket and between 50-55% for myself. Full disclosure, I make 63k/year (unmarried) with a potential 5k bonus.
 
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RandFan said:
Sorry no. As we speak there are civil lawsuits for fraud and some have already been settled. Greed alone can't explain it. Lack of regulation and fraud. And sadly, crime on the part of the SEC has been alleged and there is good reason to believe that.
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Yeah, but you know what? Nobody launches lawsuits or investigates fraud when things are looking good. Why is that?
 
A Laughing Baby said:
I'm sorry, how did this become a discussion on tax policy again?
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Because it is about tax policy. Historical marginal tax rates are closely associated with disparities in real income growth. Nothing else is even correlative.
 
stilicho said:
Because it is about tax policy. Historical marginal tax rates are closely associated with disparities in real income growth. Nothing else is even correlative.
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Strangely, tax policy reform is one of the things OWS is protesting in favor of! Imagine that!

And since I got this in a late edit in an earlier post, I'll put it here for you:

A Laughing Baby said:
Assuming equivalent funding for social programs, I would say 65-70% for the top marginal tax bracket and between 50-55% for myself. Full disclosure, I make 63k/year (unmarried) with a potential 5k bonus.
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Childlike Empress said:
It doesn't look like that at all. You are deliberately missing the enormous rise in productivity over this timespan.
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It sure looks like it to me.

Heck, people even have scads of spare time to set up drum circles and spare change to purchase Guy Fawkes masks. Never in the history of the US have "protesters" appeared so plump and well-accoutred.
 
stilicho said:
It sure looks like it to me.

Heck, people even have scads of spare time to set up drum circles and spare change to purchase Guy Fawkes masks. Never in the history of the US have "protesters" appeared so plump and well-accoutred.
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Now I feel dumb for responding to a troll. Sorry for wasting everyone's time.
 
stilicho said:
Heck, people even have scads of spare time to set up drum circles...
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Which raises a very important question, how the hell did those farmers have the time to launch a revolution against the British? Things that make you go hmmmmm.......
 
RandFan said:
They rarely launch them at all because of the incestuous relationship between the SEC and Wall Street.
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Sidestep noted.

Here's the thing. Regulations or lack thereof are never an issue when everyone has two cars in the pot and a chicken in each garage. But when things are slightly on the sour side, it's ramming speed towards the law court buildings with all phasers on kill.

Why is that?

Why wouldn't you be as outraged at things going well as at things going not-so-well if it really was some "incestuous relationship" at work? It's because we're all greedy. Not just Wall Street Fat Cats (many of whom are quite a bit more slender and fit than some of the "protesters" I've seen) or Capitol Hill Pork Eaters.

If you blame "them" for the economic downturn are you right in line to praise "them" when things are going well?
 
RandFan said:
Which raises a very important question, how the hell did those farmers have the time to launch a revolution against the British? Things that make you go hmmmmm.......
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With a great deal of assistance from French naval commanders and Prussian drillmasters. I am quite sure the OWS people would have a lot more clout if they accepted rigorous training from a top-flight marketing consultant and representatives from the Israeli military. They'd sure avoid embarrassment. They should sink that reputed half a million they raised into a consulting contract and actually do something productive.
 
One of the great difficulties the movement faces is that people at large fail to recognize that it's perfectly valid to operate (even successfully) within a system while acknowledging that the system is faulty/working to change it.
 
stilicho said:
Sidestep noted.
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Not only was it not a sidestep I provided you with documentation for it.

If you blame "them" for the economic downturn are you right in line to praise "them" when things are going well?
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You have me confused with some other body. I don't bitch when gas prices are high because I'm a capitalist and I like it when gas prices are low.

You are conflating two very different things.

1.) They should have been investigated when things "were going well". Because:
2.) Things were NOT going well. The economy can only grow so fast. But that wasn't fast enough for them so they commited fraud, wrote loans they knew were bad, packaged them with other good assets, sold them to unsuspecting investors and THEN bet against the investments (now I'll grant you that hedging investments is not per se unethical but in this case there's no question about it).

So, apples and oranges. I reject your assertion for good reason.
 
stilicho said:
With a great deal of assistance...
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Doesn't resolve it. No one said, "hey, go home and milk the cows I'll take it from here". I didn't say My point wasn't how did the farmers pull it off being farmers? My point was where the did the farmers find the time? Dude, not any ol' thing is a legitimate response. Come on.
 
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A Laughing Baby said:
One of the great difficulties the movement faces is that people at large fail to recognize that it's perfectly valid to operate (even successfully) within a system while acknowledging that the system is faulty/working to change it.
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I can buy this and would add to it.

When a "movement" appears out of "nowhere" to take advantage of an opportunity then it's best to keep a remote and sceptical appreciation. The opportunity was an economic downturn although precisely the same conditions were in place when the economy was booming (or at least appeared to be booming). This means that the "movement" was altogether content as long as the system worked to their benefit and regardless of any perception of "corruption".

In most universes this would be considered unprincipled or hypocritical. Why isn't it here? On a sceptics forum of all places?
 
stilicho said:
I can buy this and would add to it.

When a "movement" appears out of "nowhere" to take advantage of an opportunity then it's best to keep a remote and sceptical appreciation. The opportunity was an economic downturn although precisely the same conditions were in place when the economy was booming (or at least appeared to be booming). This means that the "movement" was altogether content as long as the system worked to their benefit and regardless of any perception of "corruption".

In most universes this would be considered unprincipled or hypocritical. Why isn't it here? On a sceptics forum of all places?
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I wouldn't really agree with this sentiment. There was a large contingent that agreed the system was broken for a long, long time before things ever went bad. It takes things going bad, however, for it to have a personal impact. People act when the system affects their own lives. It's just the way it's always been. Movements happen when they happen. Would you consider the Tea Party unprinicipled or hypocritical for not protesting the things they spoke against when they were going on for years before their movement began? What about white protesters in the civil rights movement?

I don't really see where you're getting at with this, unless you're about to release some "Obama/Soros grand puppetmaster scheme in time for a wag the dog operation for election year" theory on us.
 
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