The Wicked Witch of the West and Obamacare

[ponderingturtle]

And we can find horror stories about the US system too. It does not, however, prove that there is a fundamental problem with the UK or US systems. For that we just have to look at statistical information regarding clinical outcomes, extent of population treated, key health indicators, and costs.

Hint: Said statistical information does not make the current US system look very good.

Yea but the horror stories in the US are about the worthless people of the poor and middle classes.

 

[Biscuit]

Ok, so we have a bunch of people who buy their own health care/insurance. And we have a bunch on a national plan- Medicare. And we have some who have neither, numbering some where between 11 M and 42M, depending on who's numbers you use. But most of the non-covered are the healthy young adults. So what percentage actually suffer from non-coverage, like dying of treatable problems without care ?

It looks to me that while we lack UHC, about 99% of use DO NOT NEED Obamacare.

Then, didn't Obama recently ummm void much of the Obamacare plan? No money to pay for it ?

I am one of those healthy young adults (31) and your assessment is nuts. We play a lot of sports almost everyone I know has torn their ACL. I tore my PCL. Young adults have children and need prenatal care. Young people get into car accidents and I know several that have had their appendix removed. Due to back surgery I racked up over 40K in hospital bills when I was 24. Young adults get colds, the flu, and soar throats. We fall down, break bones, and need things like eye exams.

I have no health insurance right now and own my own business. I chose to sacrifice health care for independence in my employment. Most of my friends would love to start their own business but are to afraid to go without health insurance. These young people who "don't need OBAMACARE" could be the ones starting new businesses, hiring new employees, and kick starting our economy if they had healthcare.

 

[Dancing David]

Oh, the US does indeed have an Obama enforced energy policy fostered by the environmentalist wackos.

And the same old Big Guns that have always been, how much policy benefits the Seven Sisters?

 

[Dancing David]

Are you really interested in facts??? Really? Would it make any difference??? Course not.

Considering you and facts are often distant relations, why not present the facts and your sources?

 

[Dancing David]

The reason health care is so expensive in the US, is the same reason for the inflated costs of higher education -- no market discipline.

Um the free market is why teh prices are high, there is no competition for items.

The more government money stolen from taxpayers or counterfeited by the Fed, and shoveled into the system, the more prices are bid up.

Nope, the private insurers are part of it too, and who do you think sets teh prices?

The answer is to take away all the Pell Grants, all the loans and the scholarships and all the federal grants to colleges and let the free market work. Ditto for health care.

Wow, that is whacked, well when you cut all the corporate subsidies, I might agree. But the cost of education has been rising while government funding has been dropping.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

When citing a source, it is usually a good idea to read it, to wit:

"...students at for-profit colleges received more than $4 billion in Pell Grants and more than $20 billion in federal loans provided by the Department of Education (Education)....

...The colleges were selected based on several factors, including those that the Department of Education reported received 89 percent or more of their revenue from federal student aid."

In other words, the so-called "for profit" colleges are not private at all, but subsidized via the poor dumb taxpayer, just like the public colleges.

The source of the funding has no bearing on the issue, the for profit colleges are opperated to maximise their profits. That is what capitalism is all about.


Furthermore, Pell grants and loans are not unique to for profit colleges. Students at public colleges receive them as well, therefore the comparison is still valid

 

[Tricky]

You know, it's almost refreshing to find someone with the viewpoint that one way to solve our country's problems is to ensure that people are less educated. I mean, really that's what Libertarians want, since mass stupidity helps them considerably, but it is rare to see someone come out and admit it openly.

 

[Darat]

The reason health care is so expensive in the US, is the same reason for the inflated costs of higher education -- no market discipline. The more government money stolen from taxpayers or counterfeited by the Fed, and shoveled into the system, the more prices are bid up. The answer is to take away all the Pell Grants, all the loans and the scholarships and all the federal grants to colleges and let the free market work. Ditto for health care.

Why does that not apply to the UK?

 

[daredelvis]

I have no health insurance right now and own my own business. I chose to sacrifice health care for independence in my employment. Most of my friends would love to start their own business but are to afraid to go without health insurance. These young people who "don't need OBAMACARE" could be the ones starting new businesses, hiring new employees, and kick starting our economy if they had healthcare.

I think this is an important point ignored by most who oppose UHC (along with the fact that we already have incredibly inefficient and expensive UHC as Upchurch pointed out). Having to rely on employer provided heal care stifles entrepreneurship. If you have a preexisting condition, or a special needs child, you must work for a large employer, there is no other choice.

Daredelvis

 

[TimCallahan]

I don't make up crap. Should we take this item as an admission that facts really do not concern you?

UK Man Collapses In Hospital And Dies After Nurses Ignore Him For 10 Hours

"When 41-year-old Peter Thompson arrived in a UK hospital after having a concoction of alcohol and drugs, it’s reasonable to expect that he would have been treated. He wasn’t. Instead, he collapsed on the floor, just 200 yards from the emergency center. And there he lay, for 10 hours, as nurses stepped around him dismissing him as a mere drunk. He died because of the inaction.

But adding to the horror is how Thompson’s body was treated after he died – he was dragged through the hall like “a dead animal,” his family said."

http://thedaleygator.wordpress.com/...nd-dies-after-nurses-ignore-him-for-10-hours/

Upon visiting the site of your link, I came across the following bit of the story:

The incident happened at the Manchester Royal Infirmary in April last year where Thompson was a voluntary patient for drug and alcohol programs. When he showed up he had a bottle of Vodka that he refused to surrender. Nurses decided to let him “sleep it off.”
The hospital and the family have reached a settlement in the case.
“It seems to me undeniable that the jury came to a conclusion the death was wholly preventable,” a local coroner said during an investigation into the matter.

While I am not condoning the actions of the hospital staff, any more than did the jury in the case (see third hilited area), the implications of the case, as you presented it, were that the man had come off the street and was simply ignored, rather than given medical attention. However, as noted in the first hilited area, Thompson was taking part of the hospital's drug and alcohol program - thus, this wasn't a one-time incident - and had a bottle of vodka (the prime alcohol delivery system favored by alcoholics), which he refused to give up, indicating that he really didn't show up there for help. The staff left him where he was to sleep off his drunk. If they were letting him sleep it off, was he actually lying on the floor, or had her merely slumped over on a bench? Again, I'm not condoning their action; but this is a lot different from a situation where someone unknown to them came in off the street needing medical help.

As to the portion of your quoted post I hilited, note that the statement that the patient's body was dragged through the halls "like a dead animal" was the family's allegation. In the photo accompanying the original story in the Daily Mail (not the most objective source), the staff seems to be pulling the body lying on a cloth. Were they short of gurneys and trying to move Thompson, or were they indeed simply treating him like a dead animal? I should point out that if one merely wants to clear away dead flesh as quickly and efficiently as possible, the best way is to load it on a gurney or a low wheeled stretcher. Pulling the body on a sheet would fit the actions of people overly hastily trying to get the comatose patient into the emergency room.

Leaving aside the second-hand, ideologically skewed aspects of the blog posting you cited, let us say, for the sake of argument, that your original assessment was correct, that this is an absolute horror story. What you imply in your post is that this is standard operating procedure in the UK's system of socialized medicine. Of course, were this actually the case, two things would be true. First, we would be hearing many more such stories. Second, the voters in the UK would vote to radically change, or even do away with, the system. As to the first point, the reason the story stands out so is that it is indeed an isolated incident. As to the second point, neither the voters of the UK, nor the voters in any other nation in which such a system is in place, have taken any action to radically reform, or even do away with, their medical systems. This includes Canada, which right now is headed by conservatives.

 

[Architect]

As ever, facts get in the way of an anti-UHC argument.

Remember, Stephen Hawkings would have tied had be been British.....

 

[Newtons Bit]

Milton Friedman postulated that "there is no free lunch". Obviously, that goes for heath care as well. Health care is never so expensive as when it is "free."

So why is it more expensive in the USA where it is not free?

 

[Architect]

[Anti-UHC] Because we subsidise teh rest of teh world, darned socialistas [Anti-UHC]

 

[Robert Prey]

Single anecdotes don't matter at all. If you want examples of private healthcare failing, go to the wiki list of american health insurance companies, pick a few big ones, and go through the lawsuits they've had against them or the "controversy" link - for example, Aetna, or Cigna. This doesn't prove socialised medicine to be better just as your article doesn't prove it to be worse, it just shows that both systems have their flaws, and we can't use single cases to dismiss either system.

Yeah, well you can be sure in a private hospital employees would be fired and lawsuits would be filed if patients died in the hall, uncared for . In a government hospital, with government care, I don't think so. I don't think you can sue the HHS, nor the Queen of England. Thus, you can expect the same "I don't give a ****" attitude in a government hospital as you expect from the Post office or the DMV.

Do not circumvent the autocensor

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis

 

[Robert Prey]

So why is it more expensive in the USA where it is not free?

Not free? Ever hear of Medicare? Medicaid? And who pays for all the illegal's health care??/ Guess?

 

[Robert Prey]

Why does that not apply to the UK?

It's a universal truth.It applies everywhere.

 

[stokes234]

Yeah, well you can be sure in a private hospital employees would be fired and lawsuits would be filed if patients died in the hall, uncared for . In a government hospital, with government care, I don't think so.

I'm not massively concerned with what one of the most partisan forum members around thinks, unless they can back it up with evidence. Which you haven't.

I don't think you can sue the HHS, nor the Queen of England. Thus, you can expect the same "I don't give a ****" attitude in a government hospital as you expect from the Post office or the DMV.

A quick google would save you from these basic mistakes.
http://www.nhsnegligence.co.uk/sueformalpractice.htm
http://www.clinicalnegligenceteam.co.uk/suing-the-nhs

Christ, there's even a http://www.sue-the-nhs.co.uk/

 

[Biscuit]

I think this is an important point ignored by most who oppose UHC (along with the fact that we already have incredibly inefficient and expensive UHC as Upchurch pointed out). Having to rely on employer provided heal care stifles entrepreneurship. If you have a preexisting condition, or a special needs child, you must work for a large employer, there is no other choice.

Daredelvis

A friend of mine (also a young healthy american that doesn't need health care) was going to leave his college teaching job and go into business with me but that all ended when his new born needed spinal surgery. Our current health care system is preventing capitalism and stifling growth in this country.

America ranks around 37th in health care IIRC

Our current system is far too large, complex, and expensive

We have very little preventive care

Millions of your fellow citizens (and job creators like me) have to go without in order to afford what most civilized nations deem a basic right.

The very notion of "the american dream" is being smothered for millions who are shackled to their jobs healthcare plan

Yet there are people defending this situation!? Why is our current system so great? Is it because we can place a pig heart into a baboon? Why shouldn't we try UHC?

 

[Architect]

Yeah, well you can be sure in a private hospital employees would be fired and lawsuits would be filed if patients died in the hall, uncared for .

In this country you could face both a law suit and a culpable homicide or manslaughter charge, depending on the extent of negligence.

I don't think you can sue the (N)HS

Wrong.

nor the Queen of England.

You know that there's no such person, right?

Thus, you can expect the same "I don't give a ****" attitude in a government hospital as you expect from the Post office or the DMV.

Evidence based on actual events in UHC countries such as the UK, Canada, etc?

 

[Biscuit]

And who pays for all the illegal's health care??/ Guess?

People with private insurance pay for it through higher premiums. Next question.