Merged Steve Jobs has died.

I think the thing I find most amusing is I would guess the kid was thrilled to have his keyboard signed after he gave permission for jobs to remove the keys. Seems that people in some random internet forum are probably the most upset about it :D

Yeah, it shows a bad side of Jobs. He was arrogant and narrow-minded on some topics. If the student gave permission, then it seems like a light-hearted way to show his arrogance about keyboards of all things. What's to be upset about?

Really, why does it bother you that this is a valid criticism of Jobs?
 
The point being that if you're one of the people who use a product in a way Jobs has decided that most people shouldn't, you're doing it wrong and need to have your stuff destroyed.

Ever considered that he (or whoever was behind it) may have been right?

It's actually well thought out: command keys require minimal movement of your left hand from rest position, with your left thumb an inch away from the command key. A function key requires a reach. Normally your the left hand says "what" while your right hand on the mouse says "where".

It was painful when they gave in and added the numeric keypad to the Mac: now you had to reach over it every time for two-handed typing. And there was already a perfectly good row of numbers in easy reach above. Too bad Jobs couldn't stop that one on desktops, but nice that you can get MacBooks without them.
 
You know you can fairly easily jailbreak it and remove newsstand, etc.
Like I said, because I need this phone fully functional 24 hours a day, I'm not dealing with risking being unable to boot with tethered or risk of downtime needing to restore.

As for deleting songs ... really ? I just slide my finger to the left over the song and/or album and the delete button comes up ... please do try and keep up with how the OS works.
Wise guy eh? Thanks for the tip. This is apparently a new feature for ios5, when I googled for the answer all I got was people either saying you had to use itunes or download an app to do this, I assumed it was still the case. So, thank god they finally added this mundane feature that allows you to get around having to use itunes... :rolleyes:
 
How dare you think you know what you need better than Jobs??!?!

Did you hear the story about Jobs when he was asked to sign a keyboard? The keyboard was manufactured when he wasn't at Apple, so it had function keys and cursor keys. When it was handed to him he pulled out his car keys and pried them all off. You know, because you are supposed to use the mouse to do everything, so those keys are worthless.
:eye-poppi

Nevermind that the cursor keys are always a) closer than the mouse b) in the same place. Plus, the customer wanted them (oh look they are there now aren't they?!) Plus I could just never play any kind of video game without those things on there.

I thought this was funny

When it came time to assign employee badge numbers, Apple's first president, Mike Scott, gave Wozniak No. 1 and Jobs No. 2. Jobs was furious and demanded to be No. 1, but Scott refused. Finally, they reached a compromise: Jobs would be badge No. 0.
 
Yeah, it shows a bad side of Jobs. He was arrogant and narrow-minded on some topics. If the student gave permission, then it seems like a light-hearted way to show his arrogance about keyboards of all things. What's to be upset about?

Really, why does it bother you that this is a valid criticism of Jobs?

Ever considered that he (or whoever was behind it) may have been right?

It's actually well thought out: command keys require minimal movement of your left hand from rest position, with your left thumb an inch away from the command key. A function key requires a reach. Normally your the left hand says "what" while your right hand on the mouse says "where".

It was painful when they gave in and added the numeric keypad to the Mac: now you had to reach over it every time for two-handed typing. And there was already a perfectly good row of numbers in easy reach above. Too bad Jobs couldn't stop that one on desktops, but nice that you can get MacBooks without them.

The above response is a great answer. My point was more simplistic - If you want to pick an example of Jobs being an arrogant ass, I think there are a whole lot of better examples :) Also, I think the way you and Roger described it was a bit skewed, as opposed to the way it read from the book.

Additionally, when you say arrogance about keyboards of all things - that's kinda the point about a lot of the Jobs stories - he was passionate about thinking about things like keyboards instead of just accepting 'meh, it's a keyboard, it's supposed to be like this'.

What actually caused me to jump into the thread was the stereotype about the 'cult' and how Apple is all just 'marketing' and they could offer the iTurd and 25 million people will buy it. While that may have had some truth at some point in the past, I don't think it holds water now, any more than the old 'macs cost twice as much as a pc' nonsense.
 
Like I said, because I need this phone fully functional 24 hours a day, I'm not dealing with risking being unable to boot with tethered or risk of downtime needing to restore.

The point was - that is not something exclusive to iphones. Rooting your android device runs essentially the same potential issues.

Wise guy eh? Thanks for the tip. This is apparently a new feature for ios5, when I googled for the answer all I got was people either saying you had to use itunes or download an app to do this, I assumed it was still the case. So, thank god they finally added this mundane feature that allows you to get around having to use itunes... :rolleyes:

The itunes thing is a valid gripe about iOS. Apple obviously knows it too, which is why they finally moved away from it. You know you can get updated without itunes now, too :) As more of a power-user, I also wish Apple included things that I also consider more 'mundane' - but that's not how they roll. I accept that as trade-off for other things, and won't go any further down this rabbit hole as the point of this thread is not iOS -vs- something else.
 
What actually caused me to jump into the thread was the stereotype about the 'cult' and how Apple is all just 'marketing' and they could offer the iTurd and 25 million people will buy it. While that may have had some truth at some point in the past, I don't think it holds water now, any more than the old 'macs cost twice as much as a pc' nonsense.

I still haven't seen any proof he was a visionary. Hell I think people would buy the iTurd listening to all the hype over other products that were pretty much the same thing with a new number, but people just had to have the new one.

As to the Air its just a thin laptop they've been going thin for a long time. If following the natural trend is visionary the standards have lowered. If people want to claim it I'd like some proof; how did he change the world and revolutionize computing? So far I've only seen rhetoric and hero worship without any actual proof.
 
OK - let me try from this angle.

Apple has a very limited selection of hardware. They chose to focus on the Air almost 4 years ago as one of their limited section of laptops. At the they had a custom CPU to meet power/size requirements, and in the second revision added the SSDD option. I think the most comparable utlra-portable wasn't really until the Dell Adamo in 2009. Apple was on the cutting edge of trying to create a workable ultra-portable in terms of size, performance, etc and was willing to reduce the number of ports, build in the battery, etc to achieve those goals way before it was mainstream.

Yes, now that hardware, etc have 'caught up' and does not have to be so carefully 'engineered'- more manufacturers are jumping in the ultra-portable game. I think this is where I would give credit to Jobs being 'visionary'.

Sorry but I just don't see that as being visionary in any way, companies like IBM were making "ultraportables" back in the 90s. Other companies used custom processors to try to get the size down (Sony and Fujitsu with the shortlived Transmeta processors comes to mind) and a myriad of other tricks. Not saying that the Air wasn't a really nice portable but it was the result of following trends in laptops that had been in place for decades.
 
Well I can't stop the idiots or conspiracy theorists. But, maybe if schools taught the reality we would have less of it (I had never even heard of the man until college). I mean we have the modern age because of the man and he gets no credit. AC makes the world go round. Radio communication helped change the world. Florescent lights are only now getting their due. His range of ideas and ingenuity set the stage for many of our modern technologies. He was a true visionary.

I learned about Tesla when I was in high school. Not from the school, though. From the band named after him.


It was painful when they gave in and added the numeric keypad to the Mac: now you had to reach over it every time for two-handed typing. And there was already a perfectly good row of numbers in easy reach above. Too bad Jobs couldn't stop that one on desktops, but nice that you can get MacBooks without them.

Ugh. I hate keyboards without number pads.
 
Re: opinions on people - probably true. :)
As to the fad aspect - are you really going there ? iPods are a 'fad' ? Tablets are a 'fad' ? I am going to have to disagree. Perhaps we need a clearer definition of what a fad is in order to go down this rabbit hole.
We can go into fads or not I have no problem either way. What I'm really talking about is the preference for a specific brand being the fad, not the devices themselves. Again he didn't create the devices just changed them to follow his preferences.

I am not sure what 'lock' on the market Apple has ? Care to elaborate ? iTunes sells unencumbered music in a relatively open format. One could easily make the case the popularity of iTunes is what drove the music industry to (mostly) remove DRM on music, to unseat iTunes' dominance. Remember Jobs' letter on open music ?
This is the Confusion of correlation and causation fallacy. Just because the industry removed DRM to unseat them doesn't mean that was their purpose. Also, if we look at history in tech having the market share for a period of time can give one dominance of that area despite having better or as good as competitors. Just look to AT&T who own the phone market. Apple has a decent product but MS still basically owns the PC market. People are creatures of habit and are loath to change.

Google has bought up 3 times the number of companies as apple in the same time period. That seems like a really fine way to kill competitors. :mad: As far as lock in deals ... well ... that's part of the whole problem. Amazon, Google, Apple, Netflix ... they are *all* beholden to the content providers in the area of digital content. Apple is hardly a standout in this regard. App store ? Not really sure how that is appreciably different than Google market and google experience devices. You tell me.
Isn't this just the Two wrongs make a right fallacy. Lock in is a bad thing: it slows innovation, just like the whole software patents problem.

Intel marks up their processors more depending on what device it's going in ? I think you are missing my point. The market for tablets and ultrabooks is going to continue to grow. Perhaps only time will tell if it's just a fad, but current market analysis doesn't appear to see it this way. Apple led the way with the Air into a burgeoning market that is now basically just catching up.
Answered in another post...

The plural of anecdote is not evidence ? I work in IT security, so yeah, I guess I know a lot of techies too, but I am not going to introduce my personal experience as some sort of evidence that apple products are a fad. That's silly.
It wasn't given as evidence just an anecdote to show that they're not as ubiquitous as you seemed to state.
 
I still haven't seen any proof he was a visionary. Hell I think people would buy the iTurd listening to all the hype over other products that were pretty much the same thing with a new number, but people just had to have the new one.

As to the Air its just a thin laptop they've been going thin for a long time. If following the natural trend is visionary the standards have lowered. If people want to claim it I'd like some proof; how did he change the world and revolutionize computing? So far I've only seen rhetoric and hero worship without any actual proof.

Sorry but I just don't see that as being visionary in any way, companies like IBM were making "ultraportables" back in the 90s. Other companies used custom processors to try to get the size down (Sony and Fujitsu with the shortlived Transmeta processors comes to mind) and a myriad of other tricks. Not saying that the Air wasn't a really nice portable but it was the result of following trends in laptops that had been in place for decades.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/10/06/141105015/the-word-for-steve-jobs-visionary

*shrugs* Not trying to just make an argument ad populum, but still ... it's not like we have a rigorous methodology to define who is and who is not a 'visionary'.

I won't defend the idea that Apple/Jobs was revolutionary instead of more evolutionary. But I do think you can be both evolutionary and a visionary at the same time - perhaps you both disagree and that is the main point of contention.

If you think the iPad is simply a computer with a touch screen, nothing new there, right ? Just the result of following trends in the computer industry - then we probably just disagree on what constitutes visionary, and that's fine.
 
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/10/06/141105015/the-word-for-steve-jobs-visionary

*shrugs* Not trying to just make an argument ad populum, but still ... it's not like we have a rigorous methodology to define who is and who is not a 'visionary'.

I won't defend the idea that Apple/Jobs was revolutionary instead of more evolutionary. But I do think you can be both evolutionary and a visionary at the same time - perhaps you both disagree and that is the main point of contention.

If you think the iPad is simply a computer with a touch screen, nothing new there, right ? Just the result of following trends in the computer industry - then we probably just disagree on what constitutes visionary, and that's fine.

My point was that the Air was not an example of him being a visionary. I actually do think he was visionary in some areas but not in making thin laptops.
 
We can go into fads or not I have no problem either way. What I'm really talking about is the preference for a specific brand being the fad, not the devices themselves. Again he didn't create the devices just changed them to follow his preferences.
I disagree that for things like mp3 player iPod was just a fad, and to a certain extent in the smartphone market in general as well,but probably not worth going into.
This is the Confusion of correlation and causation fallacy. Just because the industry removed DRM to unseat them doesn't mean that was their purpose. Also, if we look at history in tech having the market share for a period of time can give one dominance of that area despite having better or as good as competitors. Just look to AT&T who own the phone market. Apple has a decent product but MS still basically owns the PC market. People are creatures of habit and are loath to change.

Isn't this just the Two wrongs make a right fallacy. Lock in is a bad thing: it slows innovation, just like the whole software patents problem.
I was just trying to address your 'lock-in' accusation. As consumers, we simply have a little choice as to how we get locked in, not really to choose to be locked-in or not. Not yet, anyway.

It wasn't given as evidence just an anecdote to show that they're not as ubiquitous as you seemed to state.

http://www.apple.com/pr/products/ipodhistory/
Number of iPods sold through September 1, 2010: 275 million

http://venturebeat.com/2011/03/02/apple-100m-iphones/
Apple has sold 100 million iPhone as of last week (March 2011)

I think iProducts are ubiquitous.
 
The above response is a great answer. My point was more simplistic - If you want to pick an example of Jobs being an arrogant ass, I think there are a whole lot of better examples :) Also, I think the way you and Roger described it was a bit skewed, as opposed to the way it read from the book.
I'm confused, how was what I wrote skewed? "So Steve Jobs pulled his car keys out of his pocket and began scooping into the computer keyboard, violently disgorging all the keys that offended him...Only then, when he had mutilated the apparatus ... He was making a statment.... he yearned to restore the company in accordance with his vision".

I just relayed the story to make the point that Jobs was quite rigid about design choices. This is true; there are endless stories of him calling good work ****, of him dictating design down to the smallest screw hidden inside the computer.

It's a personality foible that I've seen in a lot of people - Jobs had the genius to turn it into a wildly successful product line. But it is a good reason why you have so many Apple haters - what Steve insists is the "right" way is often "a" way to do things. I love function keys, and can't imagine why someone would want to use the #s across the top of the keyboard instead of a numeric keypad for entering a bunch of numbers; yet, you will find somebody championing just that a few posts up from mine. Neither of us is right, other than right for us. Likewise, when keyboard shortcuts exist I tend to prefer them over using the GUI. I know others that hate all GUIs and still work in command line Linux whenever possible, whereas I'd hate that. Again, that person is not wrong, just different. Jobs did not appear to recognize that any choice other than his was right, and it leads to people complaining about things like being unable to remove an icon from their device, which is what prompted my original reply.

I haven't used Apple products in quite some time, but I used to use a Mac at my first job. I was preparing graphs from statistical data I was generating, and it drove me crazy that everything was mouse driven. An artist type with great hand-eye coordination would no doubt complain about a PC program that relied on the keyboard. Different strokes.

I recall my iPod driving me to distraction. I'd plug it into the computer, and it would immediately take over, updating with a bunch of podcasts and such. Well, I was trying to run out the door to catch the bus, and wanted to drop a song onto the device, but no, you have to wait while it downloads a bunch of stuff automatically, with dire warnings not to disconnect, and you can't do what you really want to do, drop a song on, and leave.

The last paragraph will almost certainly engender replies on how that is how it should work, and why,and how I should plan ahead, etc. Well, I don't want it that way, but I'm stuck. I'm not wrong for wanting it that way. Jobs would not only tell me I'm wrong, he'd say my way was ****.
 
Ever considered that he (or whoever was behind it) may have been right?

It's actually well thought out: command keys require minimal movement of your left hand from rest position, with your left thumb an inch away from the command key. A function key requires a reach. Normally your the left hand says "what" while your right hand on the mouse says "where".

It was painful when they gave in and added the numeric keypad to the Mac: now you had to reach over it every time for two-handed typing. And there was already a perfectly good row of numbers in easy reach above. Too bad Jobs couldn't stop that one on desktops, but nice that you can get MacBooks without them.

HE'S NOT RIGHT. Why? It's a preference, and he has no way to prove that the way many computer users wanted to use something as instantly changeable as a keyboard is 'wrong'. It's hubris, but that's what he did. He insisted that people who wanted things different from what he thought they should have were *********.

I'm confused, how was what I wrote skewed? "So Steve Jobs pulled his car keys out of his pocket and began scooping into the computer keyboard, violently disgorging all the keys that offended him...Only then, when he had mutilated the apparatus ... He was making a statment.... he yearned to restore the company in accordance with his vision".

I just relayed the story to make the point that Jobs was quite rigid about design choices. This is true; there are endless stories of him calling good work ****, of him dictating design down to the smallest screw hidden inside the computer.

It's a personality foible that I've seen in a lot of people - Jobs had the genius to turn it into a wildly successful product line. But it is a good reason why you have so many Apple haters - what Steve insists is the "right" way is often "a" way to do things. I love function keys, and can't imagine why someone would want to use the #s across the top of the keyboard instead of a numeric keypad for entering a bunch of numbers; yet, you will find somebody championing just that a few posts up from mine. Neither of us is right, other than right for us. Likewise, when keyboard shortcuts exist I tend to prefer them over using the GUI. I know others that hate all GUIs and still work in command line Linux whenever possible, whereas I'd hate that. Again, that person is not wrong, just different. Jobs did not appear to recognize that any choice other than his was right, and it leads to people complaining about things like being unable to remove an icon from their device, which is what prompted my original reply.

I haven't used Apple products in quite some time, but I used to use a Mac at my first job. I was preparing graphs from statistical data I was generating, and it drove me crazy that everything was mouse driven. An artist type with great hand-eye coordination would no doubt complain about a PC program that relied on the keyboard. Different strokes.

I recall my iPod driving me to distraction. I'd plug it into the computer, and it would immediately take over, updating with a bunch of podcasts and such. Well, I was trying to run out the door to catch the bus, and wanted to drop a song onto the device, but no, you have to wait while it downloads a bunch of stuff automatically, with dire warnings not to disconnect, and you can't do what you really want to do, drop a song on, and leave.

The last paragraph will almost certainly engender replies on how that is how it should work, and why,and how I should plan ahead, etc. Well, I don't want it that way, but I'm stuck. I'm not wrong for wanting it that way. Jobs would not only tell me I'm wrong, he'd say my way was ****.

This, all of it. I was prepared to write out basically the same ideas, only I would have likely been more curt about it.
 
The above response is a great answer. My point was more simplistic - If you want to pick an example of Jobs being an arrogant ass, I think there are a whole lot of better examples :) Also, I think the way you and Roger described it was a bit skewed, as opposed to the way it read from the book.

Additionally, when you say arrogance about keyboards of all things - that's kinda the point about a lot of the Jobs stories - he was passionate about thinking about things like keyboards instead of just accepting 'meh, it's a keyboard, it's supposed to be like this'.

Roger said it better than I could. However, Jobs was dead wrong. If people wanted a number pad and function keys, he's a stupid ass to insist that they are ********* for wanting them. If he doesn't want them, that's fine too. It wasn't that he was 'passionate' about those things, that's great! What was wrong was about it was insisting that preference was 'wrong'.

What actually caused me to jump into the thread was the stereotype about the 'cult' and how Apple is all just 'marketing' and they could offer the iTurd and 25 million people will buy it. While that may have had some truth at some point in the past, I don't think it holds water now, any more than the old 'macs cost twice as much as a pc' nonsense.

Then you should re-read my posts. Apple's marketing IS probably it's most impressive feat, but they are still fine products and are very polished. They have lots of pluses. Just because someone it criticizing Apple or Jobs doesn't mean they hate them.
 
HE'S NOT RIGHT. Why? It's a preference, and he has no way to prove that the way many computer users wanted to use something as instantly changeable as a keyboard is 'wrong'. It's hubris, but that's what he did. He insisted that people who wanted things different from what he thought they should have were *********.
[rogers post - I'm too lazy to double quote]
This, all of it. I was prepared to write out basically the same ideas, only I would have likely been more curt about it.

It wasn't my intention to blindly come in and defend Steve Jobs, and I apologize if that's how it came across. As I said, I thought there were better stories to demonstrate him being an ass. My personal opinion is that the original summary of the 'keyboard story' , when taken in the context, is not particularly maniacal. I really don't have that much of a stake in defending him :)

As to the keyboard in general ... I don't think it's wrong to say that in certain instances there is a better way to do things, but yes, Jobs apparently took that to extremes in many instances. Although I will say that developers follow Apples HIG, I find it to be a much better experience overall. But that's really aside from the point.
 
Then you should re-read my posts. Apple's marketing IS probably it's most impressive feat, but they are still fine products and are very polished. They have lots of pluses. Just because someone it criticizing Apple or Jobs doesn't mean they hate them.

That was an aside, not directed at you.
 
As to the keyboard in general ... I don't think it's wrong to say that in certain instances there is a better way to do things, but yes, Jobs apparently took that to extremes in many instances. Although I will say that developers follow Apples HIG, I find it to be a much better experience overall. But that's really aside from the point.
Yes, there is much to be said for having a HIG, regardless of its content. The early day of PCs was a nightmare in that regard.
 
I do have a useless crap folder. The thing that pissed me off is that it won't go into there either. It demands to be there. It is on the last page now, of course, but every once in awhile i accidentally slip too far and there it is, a sign of disrespect right in my face.

Yeah it behooves us all to learn from the real man, from the real contributions, but the wishful thinking part of the masses gets the best of them. "Hey if everyone is just like Jobs everything will be awesome like Apple lets worship him!" I checked out a bit of a recent event @Google with thich nhat hanh, and I was reminded of this soooo many times...

1. Create new folder by dragging one app onto another
2. While the folder is being created quickly drag in the newstand
3. ???
4. Profit

But don't open the newstand app else it all goes horribly wrong
 

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