Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

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Alt+F4 said:
I am neither rich nor on the right and I think OWS is useless and I want these people to get the hell out of my city. They are not being maligned and belittled for speaking out and seeking redress. They are being maligned and belittled because they couldn't care less about the harm they inflict on communities.
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Wait, so if people want to change things like, oh I don't know, the American revolution, causing some people to be in discomfort renders their efforts wrong? I'm sorry but that simply makes no sense.

I have not heard even one single complaint against OWS having to do with free speech. No one wants to silence them, we just want them to move to an in door space, stop enabling criminals and stop defecating in our doorways. Is that too much to ask?
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No, it's not too much to ask. Perhaps it would be better but perhaps that not the best way to mobilize. And BTW, not all of them, not most of them, are there to defecate in doorways or enable criminals.

There are a lot of honest and objective reporters who are there and they are not claiming that OWS is just a lawless group bent on enabling criminals and defecating in doorways.

One more thing, you aren't everywhere. You don't know everything. You, like myself, must rely on reporting. All you hear are anecdotes and news reports and clearly you are not watching or listening to a lot of the news I'm listening to, CNN, MSNBC, etc. I only hear that when I watch FOX news.

I have a friend who is libertarian who lives in Oregon, she's not huge for OWS but she disputes what you are saying for her area. Why is it that only your view is correct?
 
RandFan said:
I'm anything but a sycophant and I find your characterization childish.
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How is portlandathiest's characterization childish when OWS themselves admit that there is rampant crime in the park? Couple that with those of us who live in NYC and have witnessed this disgrace first hand. I'm not hearing, "I'm a Republican and I don't want OWS in my community". I'm hearing, "I'm a New Yorker who lives in the area and I can't stand the crime, stink and noise that OWS has created."
 
portlandatheist said:
Um, I've seen the filth downtown first hand with my very own eyes, not just via the media's eyes and I don't listen to any right wing radio or watch Fox News (I'm an NPR fan). I read one "right leaning" blog that hasn't even breached the topic of the OWS movement once.
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FOX news daily criticizes the movement. CNN and MSNBC not so much. Many reporters are there with cameras and they don't report what you are reporting. So, tell me the objective sources to verify what you are saying? Hey, I'm open.
 
Alt+F4 said:
How is portlandathiest's characterization childish when OWS themselves admit that there is rampant crime in the park? Couple that with those of us who live in NYC and have witnessed this disgrace first hand. I'm not hearing, "I'm a Republican and I don't want OWS in my community". I'm hearing, "I'm a New Yorker who lives in the area and I can't stand the crime, stink and noise that OWS has created."
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Who the hell is going to say "I'm a republican...." Jeez, come on. Are there Democrats who don't like the protests? Sure, of course. Many Republicans didn't like the Tea Party rallys. That's par for the course. But for many this is an opportunity to get the attention of the leaders to do something about a very important problem. I understand that it's causing problems. Life is messy at times. I grew up in the 60's. There were the exact same problems with civil rights protests. Sometimes change is messy. I'm sorry. Let's hope some good will come of this. I think the odds are very good for it.
 
RandFan said:
Wait, so if people want to change things like, oh I don't know, the American revolution, causing some people to be in discomfort renders their efforts wrong? I'm sorry but that simply makes no sense.
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I and most folks I know would have no problem whatsoever being inconvienced if that inconvience was leading to positive, meaningful change. And you really want to compare folks making puppets with those who fought the American Revolution? Well maybe if Thomas Jefferson made a big, scary puppet and sent that to George III we wouldn't have needed the war or the Declaration.

One more thing, you aren't everywhere. You don't know everything. You, like myself, must rely on reporting. All you hear are anecdotes and news reports and clearly you are not watching or listening to a lot of the news I'm listening to, CNN, MSNBC, etc. I only hear that when I watch FOX news.
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Wrong. First of all I don't watch either CNN, MSNBC or FOX. I read only my local papers (Daily News, Post, Times). My information also comes from what I have seen personally and what co-workers tell me (my labor union is tight with OWS).

I have a friend who is libertarian who lives in Oregon, she's not huge for OWS but she disputes what you are saying for her area. Why is it that only your view is correct?
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Oregon isn't New York City.
 
Sad news here:

An Iraq war veteran has a fractured skull and brain swelling after allegedly being hit by a police projectile.

Scott Olsen is in a "critical condition" in Highland hospital in Oakland, a hospital spokesman confirmed.

Olsen, 24, suffered the head injury during protests in Oakland on Tuesday evening. More than 15 people were arrested after a crowd gathered to demonstrate against the police operation to clear two Occupy Oakland camps in the early hours of Tuesday morning.
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The cops did give fair warning that the crowd needed to disperse and received nothing but curses in response (NSFW):



Still hope that Olsen recovers completely.
 
RandFan said:
Are there Democrats who don't like the protests? Sure, of course.
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Me for one. Seems like a big masturbatory celebration of nothing in particular. I'm kind of with them in the abstract, sort of like being with environmentalists in the abstract but when hanging around with environmentalists I want to pour old motor oil in the nearest street sewer.

Exhibitionist earnestness just pisses me off for some reason. I can see something like this for a few days or even two weeks. After that, go *********** organize something that can make a political difference rather than just standing there with whiny signs.
 
RandFan said:
But for many this is an opportunity to get the attention of the leaders to do something about a very important problem.
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And what is that "do something"? Rand, the OWS protestors are not interested in changing, fixing, or regulating anything. It's about reinventing society into some sort of direct democracy where all decisions are based on consensus. They want to try that, good for them, but do it in a office building or on a college campus.

When ever, in the history of planet Earth has a protest movement been successful without an intended goal?

American Revolution - independence from Great Britian
Gandhi - independence from Great Britian
Suffrage - votes for women
Civil Rights - end segregation, voting rights

Look at the example of suffrage. It was an all male government that passed the 19th Amendment. Do you think that would have happened if all the women said was, "We're mad!"
 
Suddenly said:
Me for one. Seems like a big masturbatory celebration of nothing in particular. I'm kind of with them in the abstract, sort of like being with environmentalists in the abstract but when hanging around with environmentalists I want to pour old motor oil in the nearest street sewer.

Exhibitionist earnestness just pisses me off for some reason. I can see something like this for a few days or even two weeks. After that, go *********** organize something that can make a political difference rather than just standing there with whiny signs.
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Perhaps that's best. All I know is that people are tired of the shrinking middle class. Living on less and less and they want to do something about it. In the 60s people protested and changed the world. When I was a child there were not a lot of blacks in public office or in popular culture. Now we there is a black president. People today look to the protests that changed the world and think it could happen again. Can't say I blame them. Sometimes we need agitation. Sometimes we have to make the comfortable uncomfortable to make a change. Being nice and handing out cup cakes doesn't always cut it. I don't condone violence, crime, inappropriate behavior, but over all I support OWS. I didn't at first. I was skeptical and critical but after looking into it I'm convinced it has a reasonably good chance of change. Less than 50% in my estimation but probably better than anything else. JMO.
 
RandFan said:
FOX news daily criticizes the movement. CNN and MSNBC not so much. Many reporters are there with cameras and they don't report what you are reporting. So, tell me the objective sources to verify what you are saying? Hey, I'm open.
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How about the OWS general assembly themselves? From the minutes of their meeting:

q. can you give us some idea what these inappropriate behaviors are at night.
a. sexual assault, regular assault, theft, drug dealing.
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http://www.nycga.net/category/assemblies/minutes-ga/
 
Alt+F4 said:
And what is that "do something"?
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  1. Pass the Volker rule.
  2. Implement most if not all of the policies and regulations recommended by Elizabeth Warren without the loopholes and BS that neuters them.
  3. Increase tax rates with incentives to businesses who invest in domestic jobs.
  4. Pass Obama's jobs bill.
  5. DO SOMETHING other than attack women's reproductive health rights.
Really not all that hard actually. You do that today and most if not all of these people go home tomorrow.
 
RandFan said:
She took out a loan against her equity.
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I've never looked into those. I do, well I used to see them advertised on TV ( DVR now so commercials are a thing of the past ) and the stipulations were no repayments until you move out of your house.

Fast forward to Michel Moore's Capitalism a Love story and the scene in there where a couple is moving out of a house they'd owned for quite some time. Maybe you remember it, they were burning their furniture.

I was curious as to how that would happen, the cause wasn't mentioned in the movie.

I haven't heard a peep out of OWS about using credit wisely.
 
RandFan said:
  1. Pass the Volker rule.
  2. Implement most if not all of the policies and regulations recommended by Elizabeth Warren without the loopholes and BS that neuters them.
  3. Increase tax rates with incentives to businesses who invest in domestic jobs.
  4. Pass Obama's jobs bill.
  5. DO SOMETHING other than attack women's reproductive health rights.
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Good ideas, all of them. OWS won't fight for any of them. OWS is about resistance, not about fighting the power. Read their website, they want a better society from the bottom up.
 
Minoosh said:
Oh, man. Victoria BC sounds so good right now. I don't think the bubble will burst there; it is just such an outstanding place.

When you talk about the long commute do you mean, you'd move to the mainland and take the ferry, or do you mean a commute on VI itself?
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I'd have to move way up island, Chemainus or somewhere like that. an hour and a half one way to the city, on a good day, double that on a bad day. I haven't looked around at real estate up that way for three years though and it might have gone up as well.

The mainland is ridiculous as art all those islands between Victoria and Vancouver ( Pender Galiano etc )
 
RandFan said:
I've not denied that these things transpire. The question becomes, does this behavior represent most or all of the people protesting? Certainly the minutes don't demonstrate that.
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It may be a minority of the protesters but there certainly is a lot more sexual assault, theft, and raw sewage associated with this movement as a whole than most protests even if it is a minority causing the problems.
 
Stout said:
I've never looked into those. I do, well I used to see them advertised on TV ( DVR now so commercials are a thing of the past ) and the stipulations were no repayments until you move out of your house.

Fast forward to Michel Moore's Capitalism a Love story and the scene in there where a couple is moving out of a house they'd owned for quite some time. Maybe you remember it, they were burning their furniture. I was curious as to how that would happen, the cause wasn't mentioned in the movie.
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I don't like Michael Moore. I like his early movies but stopped watching after Bowling for Columbine. His work is propaganda and he cares nothing for logically valid argument. Which would be fine for a sitarist but he seems to fancy himself a documentarian and I can't take that seriously. Short answer. I've no idea.

I haven't heard a peep out of OWS about using credit wisely.
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Thank you. Seriously thank you. This is a very valid and reasonable question. One I am concerned about. It's too easy to simply blame all of our problems on the lending practices of our financial institutions. There does need to be responsibility on the part of those who borrow and invest.

However, we understand human nature and we understand that we as humans can be manipulated. I don't for one moment advocate govt attempting to remove any and all risk from consumers. I don't want a govt that is strictly paternal. However, we can, like the Canadians impliment common sense policies to protect consumers and protect the economy. When the Banks gamble with deposits and financial institutions make bad loans to people with bad credit then that puts us all at risk. Especially when these banks are "too big to fail". That means that you and I must bail them out while we hold the individuals responsible for their mistakes. Uh-uh. That's got to stop.

Look, many conservatives get this. Folks like Paul Volker and David Stockman. We can have risk and let people make mistakes and suffer the consequences of their actions without bringing the entire system to the brink of disaster. It's really doable. Hell, we learned our lessons from The Great Depression.
 
bikerdruid said:
and how is this a bad thing?
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Who said it is a bad thing? I say go for it if that is what they want to do but folks should stop believing OWS is about putting those Evil Wall Street Bankers in jail and passing legislation to reform student loan practices.
 
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