Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

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RandFan said:
She took out a loan against her equity. Sheesh.

:rolleyes: Couldn't even wait for an answer. Don't look now but you are being smarmy and arrogant.
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Don't you think that affects our discussion about the profitability of her investment? How much did she borrow?
 
Stout said:
I hope OWS pull it off but I'm skeptical that the rich are just going to laugh them off as a bunch of disaffected youth looking to get out of their student loans.
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They're unlikely to simply laugh this off. Instead, those bankers will just pay off enough leftist leaders to make the problem go away. It's a protection racket. And a racket never shuts down the businesses they leach off of, or they wouldn't be able to leach anymore.
 
Stout said:
That's not what i got when I went and looked it up, I got "it could have been much worse" like your mother not only lost her home but she's lucky she wasn't was forcibly evicted in the middle of the night and had all her personal possessions seized as well.
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Dude, it's really damn simple. You offered consolation and yeah, you basically said it could have been much worse". Unless "way better" isn't the opposite of "much worse".

So comparatively speaking, your mother is making out way better than me
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"way better"? C'mon, accept it. We all engage in fallacies from time to time.

At the risk of committing another one of these fallacies I'll add this is my pension I'm dealing with, my future and i was half thinking about pulling the whole lot out and sticking it in a high interest savings account and sucking up the 1.5% that I know I'll get. At least it would be safe from further losses. He talked me into waiting it out for another year.

Hopefully... There's always the option of investing outside the country, they'll let the American industry know the middle class means business. I hope OWS pull it off but I'm skeptical that the rich are just going to laugh them off as a bunch of disaffected youth looking to get out of their student loans.
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It would be nice if we could just regulate the way we used to. I like the Volker rule but the GOP will have none of that.
 
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Zuccotti Park attracting big rats:

Newly sprung ex-cons and vagrants rousted from other parks are crashing the Occupy Wall Street protest, where gourmet meals are free and boozy, drug*fueled parties are on tap, the movement’s leaders griped yesterday.

“They’re telling people who leave prison to go to Zuccotti Park,” lamented Daniel Zetah, a leader of the OWS community-relations group.
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Brainster said:
Don't you think that affects our discussion about the profitability of her investment? How much did she borrow?
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No, I don't at all. Have you had a course in accounting? Do you know what a T account is?

  1. If you have $100,000 that's $100,000 in the cash account.
  2. Purchase a home with that money that's $100,000 in fixed assets.
  3. Borrow $30,000 against the home that's $30,000 in the cash account minus finance fees and $70,000 in fixed assets.
  4. It was a low interest rate loan.
  5. When she sold the home she paid back the loan and paid off the interest.
  6. He had the loan for a short time. It was basically a wash. No BFD.
  7. If she had the money in a CD she could have borrowed the money or liquidated the CD and still would have had more money than the house netted her.
 
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Stout said:
Well, houses around here ( Victoria BC ) start at about 650K.
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Oh, man. Victoria BC sounds so good right now. I don't think the bubble will burst there; it is just such an outstanding place.

When you talk about the long commute do you mean, you'd move to the mainland and take the ferry, or do you mean a commute on VI itself?
 
Meanwhile, OWS-sympathizer Michael Moore pretends he's not in the 1%:

According to our friends at Celebrity Net Worth, Moore's fortune currently totals $50 million:

Fahrenheit 911 raked in $230 million in theaters and another $3 million in DVD sales. After the theaters take their traditional 50% cut, that leaves roughly $130 million. Take away marketing, production and distribution expenses and Moore is conservatively left with $80 million. Moore was able to secure a deal from Miramax which guaranteed him 27% of his film’s net revenues, or roughly $21.6 million. Michael also was entitled to 50% of the profits of Sicko which are estimated to be $17 million.

Moore wants to dress and act as if he's just a regular guy part of the 99 percenters, but he is every bit a multimillionaire doing everything in his power to make more money for himself.

He invests his fortune in stocks - including the Left's most-hated company Halliburton! - and isn't pro-union when it comes to managing his own business.
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Brainster said:
Zuccotti Park attracting big rats:
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The NYPD should set up a shuttle bus service from Rikers's Island (huge NYC jail) to Zuccotti Park. It will be more effective than tear gas and rubber bullets at getting these people out of the park. After all, that guy out on bail for attempted murder who is sleeping in the tent next to you is part of the 99%!
 
Brainster said:
Meanwhile, OWS-sympathizer Michael Moore pretends he's not in the 1%:
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I'm not a Moore fan but this is a fallacy.

It presumes that rich people like Buffet can't advocate on behalf of the poor. And accusing Moore of pretending to be poor by the way he dresses is just a personal attack.

Now, if you get Moore claiming to be poor I'll be with you 100% to condemn him. But just being a slob doesn't equate to pretending to be poor. It just makes him a slob.
 
RandFan said:
It presumes that rich people like Buffet can't advocate on behalf of the poor.
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Certainly rich people do advocate for the poor and this is what I don't like about OWS, the us vs. them mentality. People are good or bad based on their actions, not just because they have a lot of money. And being in the 1% doesn't even mean being a millionaire. It's about $350,000.
 
RandFan said:
I'm not a Moore fan but this is a fallacy.

It presumes that rich people like Buffet can't advocate on behalf of the poor. And accusing Moore of pretending to be poor by the way he dresses is just a personal attack.

Now, if you get Moore claiming to be poor I'll be with you 100% to condemn him. But just being a slob doesn't equate to pretending to be poor. It just makes him a slob.
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Read the link. He went on Piers Morgan and said he wasn't part of the 1%. His claim was "I do well."
 
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RandFan said:
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See, the fallacy works like this.

  1. Find a group or movement you don't like.
  2. Identify a behavior of some in the group or movement that most will find repugnant.
  3. Point it out in an attempt to paint all members of the group with the same brush.
I've already pointed this out and you keep doing it. If a person knows a line of argument is fallacious and continues to engage in the fallacy doesn't that make the person intellectually dishonest?
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I understand your point but its not just a few bad apples that make for good publicity like racist signs and misspelled signs of the Tea Party or other ridiculous signs in the anti war movement and other protests. This whole movement is a massive train wreck and gives a bad name to protesting in general. It's literally filthy and a public health and safety concern with rampant criminal activity, in fighting, and no discernible goals of any kind. Its simply a disaster with no good to come out of it such as better regulation of the financial industry or other reasonable objectives which you would like to see accomplished.
 
Alt+F4 said:
Certainly rich people do advocate for the poor and this is what I don't like about OWS, the us vs. them mentality. People are good or bad based on their actions, not just because they have a lot of money. And being in the 1% doesn't even mean being a millionaire. It's about $350,000.
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That's a straw man. I don't know of anyone who says that people are bad because they are rich. We are saying that the policies of America favor the rich and the rich lobby to protect those policies. Look at what happened to Elizabeth Warren. Look at the gutting of regulations and the harm caused. Consider the fact that Canada and other nations don't have they dynamics that we have to allow such predatory lending and complex derivatives.

On the other hand, the OWS group is under attack by many who are rich and/or on the right. The proof is in this thread. They are maligned and belittled just for speaking out and seeking redress. So if you are upset with single minded characterizations I think you are looking in the wrong place.
 
portlandatheist said:
This whole movement is a massive train wreck and gives a bad name to protesting in general.
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Nonsense.

It's literally filthy and a public health and safety concern with rampant criminal activity, in fighting, and no discernible goals of any kind. Its simply a disaster with no good to come out of it such as better regulation of the financial industry or other reasonable objectives which you would like to see accomplished.
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I'm sorry but I'm not a leftist or liberal. I've been critical of OWS particularly at the beginning. I'm anything but a sycophant and I find your characterization childish. Seriously. Obviously you are perceiving this through an echo chamber. I watch Fox News and follow right leaning blogs as well as left leaning ones and you clearly are just regurgitating the talking points of the right.

This is one of the things that really opened my eyes after I came here 10 years ago. The willingness to drink the kool-aid by people who really should no better and who really should be motivated by more than ideology and emotion. It's disappointing but hey, I'm not immune either. It's hard to be intellectually honest and not simply accept ideological dogma.
 
RandFan said:
Nonsense.

I'm sorry but I'm not a leftist or liberal. I've been critical of OWS particularly at the beginning. I'm anything but a sycophant and I find your characterization childish. Seriously. Obviously you are perceiving this through an echo chamber. I watch Fox News and follow right leaning blogs as well as left leaning ones and you clearly are just regurgitating the talking points of the right.

This is one of the things that really opened my eyes after I came here 10 years ago. The willingness to drink the kool-aid by people who really should no better and who really should be motivated by more than ideology and emotion. It's disappointing but hey, I'm not immune either. It's hard to be intellectually honest and not simply accept ideological dogma.
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Um, I've seen the filth downtown first hand with my very own eyes, not just via the media's eyes and I don't listen to any right wing radio or watch Fox News (I'm an NPR fan). I read one "right leaning" blog that hasn't even breached the topic of the OWS movement once.
 
RandFan said:
On the other hand, the OWS group is under attack by many who are rich and/or on the right. The proof is in this thread. They are maligned and belittled just for speaking out and seeking redress. So if you are upset with single minded characterizations I think you are looking in the wrong place.
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I am neither rich nor on the right and I think OWS is useless and I want these people to get the hell out of my city. They are not being maligned and belittled for speaking out and seeking redress. They are being maligned and belittled because they couldn't care less about the harm they inflict on communities.

I have not heard even one single complaint against OWS having to do with free speech. No one wants to silence them, we just want them to move to an in door space, stop enabling criminals and stop defecating in our doorways. Is that too much to ask?
 
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