Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Grinder]

50 Euros for a place to crash - don't think so. There are real hotels that charge less and I'm sure there are even cheaper ones that don't make Hotels.com.

Rudy most certainly was involved in some burglaries and other crimes.

I'm pretty sure that Koko said he knew Rudy before the night of the murder.

From ABC:

PERUGIA, Italy, March 28, 2009
Driving past Knox's cottage on either the night of the murder or the night before, Kokomani said, he noticed what looked like a large garbage bag in the middle of the road. He tried to brake, he said, but skidded on the wet road and bumped into the bag. At that point he realized that it was not a bag, but two people, whom he identified in court as Knox and Sollecito.

Sollecito approached his car in a threatening manner, he said, and he punched Sollecito. Knox then pulled a large knife out of her green handbag and brandished it at him, holding it with two hands, he said.

"I grabbed some olives that were in my car, and threw them at her," said Kokomani. "And I also threw a Nokia cell phone at her."

At that point he saw Rudy Guede, Kokomani said, whom he had met before. When he asked Guede what the two young people were doing with the knives, "He told me they were having a party, and the knife was for the cake," Kokomani testified.

I thought it was two phones but regardless, I wonder if the police found that phone the next morning?

A drug dealer admits to being at the crime scene at the time of the murder but is only considered a witness. Go figure.

 

[Grinder]

Double post

 

[Machiavelli]

So are you saying that the Questore gave an order that led to the non-apprehension of Guede prior to his killing of Kercher?

There has never been any order about Rudy Guede, of course. And I am not saying any order concerning any specific individual was ever given nor could have been given. Orders by a Questore do not deal with arrest or investigation of a specific person.

 

[Dan O.]

What is the truth? Machiavelli claims that a certain photo could have been part of a case file that any number of people could have access to. This is a truth that should be assertainable. If the photo is in the case file it should be possible to locate the photo in the case file. This would also provide the date the photo was added to the file which is a piece of information that is currently unknown. Once the date of insertion is known, the supposition that anybody could access that photo is narrowed down to the definite list of those persons that did access the file between the date the photo was inserted and the date the photo was published.

The truth is out there. If someone were looking for the truth, that file would be a place to look.

 

[Diocletus]

This is plainly false. For example the press immediatly dismissed the accusation against Patrick Lumumba stating it was not credible, days before the authorities changed their position.

So why didn't they start asking the cops about how they extracted this false accusation and about the memoriale that stated that she had been hit by the cops? Where are the questions about the interrogation and the civil rights?

Moreover, the Italian press reported correctly in real time about the investigation on Knox and Sollecito.

Wrong. There's a whole list of lies that the press published without asking follow-up questions. Sollecito's shoes, bleach receipts, Curatalo, etc.

No sane person or press source in Italy would think that an Italian authoritiy released a picture (from an existing investigation file) in the UK to create prejudice in Perugia, and that this claim can make sense. But seems you request the Italian press to come out with this nonsense theories, and you call this nonsense "questioning authority".

Oh. How would a sane person think it got there? Some other party to the case must have illegally released it to earn money?

Your claim is about a "source" and a "leak" which is an event imagined by yourself and not proven nor corroborated by any element

We know the cops created the picture. The cops either placed the picture in the investigation file or held it privately. Some authority in Perugia had custody of the investigation file (you won't tell us who), and enforced restrictions on who could access the file. The picture was published in the UK press.

So, what is imagined?

If you lived in Italy, you would just accept and comprehend the principle that the "leaks" you give much importance to are irrelevant, are unrelated to authority and do not constitute a matter for an investigation on authorites as you think. You would just see that your theory is not only unsupported but illogical.

Well, I don't live in Italy. And I don't accept that the authorities can use lies and leaks to compromise a defendant's civil rights. Sorry.

 

[Grinder]

Hi RW
I wonder what your view is on the bomb hoax at the house where the two cellphones were found in the garden.
Also the white car outside the cottage - I seem to recall LMT saying the engine was running and its headlights were on. Belonged to a drug dealer.

Not RW but I don't remember anything about a white car of a drug dealer. There was the car that broke down and needed the tow truck.

How would it be known that a car was that of a drug dealer?

 

[Mairanse]

I'm back with another question.

Did investigators find Amanda's clothes from the night before in her room indicating her story that she'd taken a shower the morning after the murder was true?

I know I've read that but i can't find the source of it.

I can't find the prosecution argue that any clothes are missing, am I mistaken and they did argue that?

Thanks!

 

[Diocletus]

I'm back with another question.

Did investigators find Amanda's clothes from the night before in her room indicating her story that she'd taken a shower the morning after the murder was true?

I know I've read that but i can't find the source of it.

I can't find the prosecution argue that any clothes are missing, am I mistaken and they did argue that?

Thanks!

They found her sweatshirt on her bed. But then they lied about it and said it was missing. And the press repeated this.

 

[Diocletus]

What is the truth? Machiavelli claims that a certain photo could have been part of a case file that any number of people could have access to. This is a truth that should be assertainable. If the photo is in the case file it should be possible to locate the photo in the case file. This would also provide the date the photo was added to the file which is a piece of information that is currently unknown. Once the date of insertion is known, the supposition that anybody could access that photo is narrowed down to the definite list of those persons that did access the file between the date the photo was inserted and the date the photo was published.

The truth is out there. If someone were looking for the truth, that file would be a place to look.

Another thing I was thinking is that to claim a copyright, the UK publisher (forget name) must have some record of the creator of the photograph and how the rights were assigned. They would have to come up with this if the copyright is ever challenged/enforced.

 

[Antony]

I hate lies, injustice and what I consider intellectuall arrogance from whenever it comes from (Russia, America, Italy, the Vatican or else).

Yet you fail to recognise the official lies that littered this case, the injustice of blaming 3 false arrests on a traumatised 20-year-old student, and the arrogance of the police and prosecution in presenting a completely implausible murder scenario based on contrived and manipulated evidence.

 

[Kaosium]

Komonistos translation for linking

Perugia Police Department
Mobile Squad

Subject: Transcript of briefing [sommarie informazioni] by person informed of facts given by:
Amanda Marie KNOX, born in Washington [sic] (U.S.A.) on 7-09-87, resident in Perugia at Via della Pergola no.7;
identified via Passport N. 422687114 issued by the U.S. Government on 06-13-2007.

Date: November 6, 2007, at 1:45 am in Perugia, at the Offices of the Mobile Squad of the Perugia Police Department.
Present are the undersigned Officials of the Judicial Police, Inspector Rita FICARRA, and Officers Lorena ZUGARINI and Ivano RAFFO, in service at the office indicated above, and the named subject, who adequately understands and speaks the Italian language, assisted by English-language interpreter Anna Donnino, [and] who, regarding the death of Meredith Susanna Cara KERCHER, and following statements made previously, declares as follows:

"In addition to what has already been reported via the preceding statements rendered here at this Office, I wish to explain that I am aware of other persons whom I frequent and who have frequented (if occasionally) my residence, who have also made the acquaintance of Meredith, and whose cellular phone information [relative utenze cellulari] I [hereby] provide.

"One of these persons is Patrik, a citizen of color about 1.70-1.75 [m] tall, with pigtails, owner of the "Le Chic" pub located on Via Alessi, whom I know to live in the area near the Porta Pesa rotunda. Tel. 393387195723, a location where I am employed two times per week on Monday and Thursday, from 10:00 pm to around 2:00 am.

"Last Thursday, November 1, a day on which I normally work, while I was at the house of my boyfriend Raffaele, at around 8:30 pm, I received a message on my cellular phone from Patrik, who told me that the premises would remain closed that evening, because there were no customers, and thus I would not need to go to work.

"I responded to the message by telling him that we would see each other at once; I then left the house, telling my boyfriend that I had to go to work. In view of the fact that during the afternoon I had smoked a joint, I felt confused, since I do not frequently make use of mind-altering substances, nor of heavier substances.

"I met Patrik immediately afterward, at the basketball court on Piazza Grimana, and together we went [to my] home. I do not recall whether Meredith was there or arrived afterward. I struggle to remember those moments, but Patrik had sex with Meredith, with whom he was infatuated, but I do not recall whether Meredith had been threatened beforehand. I recall confusedly that he killed her."

The Office records that the statement was interrupted and that Amanda KNOX was placed at the disposition of the Judicial Authority for further proceedings.


5:45 am:

Quote:
Perugia Police Department
Mobile Squad

Subject: Transcript of spontaneous statement made by:
Amanda Marie KNOX, born in Washington [sic] (U.S.A) on 07-09-87, resident in Perugia at Via della Pergola no. 7;identified via Passport No. 422687114 issued by the U.S. Goverment on 06-13-2007

Date: November 6, 2007, at 5:45 am, in Perugia at the Offices of the Mobile Squad of the Police Department. Present are the undersigned Dr. Giuliano MIGNINI, Deputy Prosecutor at the Prosecutor's Office of the Tribunal of Perugia, and the Officials of the Judicial Police, Inspector Rita FICARRA, in service at the office indicated above, and the named subject, who, despite adequately understanding and speaking the Italian language, is assisted by the English-language interpreter Anna Donnino, and who, regarding the death of Meredith Susanna Cara KERCHER, declares as follows:

"I wish to spontaneously report what happened because this case has deeply disturbed me and I am very afraid of Patrick, the African owner if the pub called 'Le Chic' on Via Alessi where I occasionally work. I met him on the evening of the first of November, after having sent him a message replying to his, with the words 'see you' ['ci vediamo', lit. "we'll see each other"].

"We met immediately afterward around 9:00 pm at the basketball court on Piazza Grimana. We went to my house at Via Della Pergola no. 7. I do not recall exactly whether my friend Meredith was already home or if she arrived later, [but] what I can say is that Patrik and Meredith went off to Meredith's room, while it seems to me that I stayed in the kitchen. I cannot recall how much time they stayed together in the room but can only say that at a certain point I heard Meredith screaming and I, frightened, covered my ears. Then I don't remember anything anymore, I am very confused in my head. I do not recall whether Meredith was screaming and if [I? she?](*) also heard thuds [tonfi] because I was involved, but I was imagining what could have happened.

"I met Patrik this morning, in front of the Univeristy for Foreigners, and he asked me some questions, specifcially he wanted to know what questions I had been asked by the Police. I think that he also asked if I wanted to meet with journalists perhaps in order to find out if I knew anything about Meredith's death. [I am] not sure whether Raffaele was present that evening but I do remember waking up at my boyfriend's house in his bed, and that I returned in the morning to my residence, where I found the door to the apartment open. When I woke up, the morning of November 2, I was in bed with my boyfriend."

It is recorded that KNOX repeatedly brings her hands to her head and shakes the latter.

Read[,] confirmed and signed [sottoscritto] at the time and place indicated above.


(*)what is written is senti, which does not make sense here; appears to be a typo for either sentii ("I heard") or sentì ("she heard"); sentivo ("I was hearing") or sentiva ("she was hearing") would also make (as much) sense.

 

[Kaosium]

Ugh, typo, I meant Komponisto's on the above. I wanted a clean copy to be able to link to so I posted the above.

 

[Diocletus]

I hate lies, injustice and what I consider intellectuall arrogance from whenever it comes from (Russia, America, Italy, the Vatican or else).

No you don't. You don't hate lies, injustice and intellectual arrogance that comes from Perugia, its Stato Polizia and Procura. You embrace their lies, injustices and arrogance.

 

[Fine]

* * *

[1] This is plainly false. For example the press immediatly dismissed the accusation against Patrick Lumumba stating it was not credible, days before the authorities changed their position.

[2] Moreover, the Italian press reported correctly in real time about the investigation on Knox and Sollecito.

* * *

____________________________

Machiavelli,

[1] The Italian press immediately dismissed Amanda's accusation against Patrick as not credible? So the Italian journalists are better qualified to establish the credibility of a witness than the cops and prosecutors. Do the cops and prosecutors therefore need more training? Or, maybe, they should decide who to arrest by reading the newspapers?

[2] The murder investigation was reported correctly in real time? Yeah, within hours of Amanda's "confession" on November 6th, we read about it in the Italian press. The 1:45 and 5:45 statements composed by the cops in Italian. But Amanda's own statements written the same day in her Memorandum accusing the cops of molesting her are not reported till two weeks later. HERE. Why?

///

 

[Malkmus]

What's up everyone,

Was Hekuran Kokomani buddies with Rudy Guede?
Google his name, Hekuran Kokomani. He's 1 scary lookin' dude.
What was their relationship before Miss Kercher was slain? Were they buddies? What was Herkuran Kokomani's car, IIRC, a back Golf doing near the cottage that night?

Hi, RW, I found this quote from Judge Micheli interesting:

GUP Paolo Micheli, granting the request of Rudy Guede's lawyers to hear the 'Albanians in the classroom, he stated: "The testimony of Kokomani is the main if not sole source of evidence to support a link between the three defendants" .

I wonder what the chances are that Kokomani was among the "group of drug dealers" Rudy was caught with in Milan two days after the nursery break-in.

Feb. 15 2009:

the' day before yesterday the police arrested after caught with eight grams of cocaine Hekuran Kokomani, the 'Albanian' s considered a charge against Amanda and Raffaele Supertest.

 

[RWVBWL]

50 Euros for a place to crash - don't think so. There are real hotels that charge less and I'm sure there are even cheaper ones that don't make Hotels.com.
<snip>

Hi Grinder,
I agree.
Keep in mind that Rudy did not have a job and rent was due soon.
Why would he pay 50 euros, over 50 US dollars, to stay somewhere when he could have just continued on his way to his Aunt's place?

It's fun digging for old posts. sometimes other ones pop up and scream out for you to re-read again! Fulcanelli wrote that he believed that Rudy Guede bought a stolen laptop. He did not steal it. This laptop, when confiscated by the police, has a screensaver photograph of Rudy with Giorgio Armani on it. Good for Rudy, hangin' with the upper class, high society.

But why would Rudy,
who did not have a job, buy a stolen laptop with his limited funds available? Surely he knew that rent was due soon. Fulcanelli even wroite tha Rudy had to pay train fare when he came back to Perugia. Duh!

How was Rudy Guede makin' $$$ to ride trains, buy laptops, pay 50 euro's to sleep overnight at a nursery school instead of just continuing onward to his Aunt's place? I'm on a very tight budget as I do shark research in here L.A. And I for 1 can not see a guy, who does not have a job, deciding to pay somebody over 50 US dollars to sleep inside of a lil' kids school, instead of just cruisibn' merrily along to his Aunt's place. Can you?

 

[RWVBWL]

Not RW but I don't remember anything about a white car of a drug dealer. There was the car that broke down and needed the tow truck.

How would it be known that a car was that of a drug dealer?

Hi Grinder,
There was an interesting site compiled by a few folks called Alternate Theories. I quoted a few postings, glad I did, for the site is down.

A poster named LMT wrote alot back the the pre-shutdown days over at Perugia Shock, and was very detailed in description of how the knife penetrated Miss Kercher's neck. He/she also answered some of my questions about bruising, for I had wondered if some of the bruises found after death on Miss Kercher were from havin' rough sex with her new boyfriend Giacomo. For I learned from reading Barbie Nadeau's book Angel Face Giacomo and Meredith experimented in their lovemaking during their short time together.

This post I dug up below makes mentions of the white car and the fact that Rudy saw a drug dealer he recognised. Have a look:
[Post 79: Alternate motive: Possibly a drug dealer was picking up his supply in front of the house and thought that Meredith was a police informant.

"Perugia may boast stunning views across the Umbrian hills and a world-class jazz festival held in frescoed palazzi, but it also has the highest number of overdose deaths per capita in Italy, as addicts move to be where the wholesalers are. North African dealers lurk on corners in the city centre and Nigerians control the suburbs, all under the watchful eye of the Calabrian 'Ndrangheta mafia."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...rugia-students

"I was in the bathroom when it happened. One thing is certain, Amanda wasn't there."

"I fought with a man when I came out. She was not there." Rudy Guede's taped conversation while on the run in Germay.

Rudy Guede mentions in his German diary that when he arrived at the house that he saw a white car with lights on and a drug dealer that he recognized from Garibaldi street. We have heard from other students that the park near the house was a known area of drug dealing and drug use.

From Rudy's German diary:
"Then I headed for Meredith's house. With all the running around I did, I think it would have been around 8:30 p.m. Because we were supposed to see each other at that time, even though I didn't have a watch I tried to arrive on time, because I usually arrive late. As I arrived in front of the house, I noticed a white car with headlights on, and a Drug-Dealer I often saw on Garibaldi Avenue, but I didn't make much of this and I went into the yard. I knocked on the door, but no one answered. I went downstairs to the guy's place but no one was there either. So then, I waited in the yard."

Whoever controls the supply of drugs controls the entire drug operation. Small time dealers are supplied with only a limited amount of drugs. They must make contact with their supplier to receive product to sell and then the supplier picks up the money. Hekuran Kokomani was caught with 8 grams of cocaine in February 2009. Who is he? A small time dealer or a supplier? Or as he says innocent because the drugs were not his?

8:01 p.m. Hekuran Kokomani's mobile phone record shows that he entered the area of the cottage at this time, where it had earlier that day placed him in the Assisi locality.

It is not a stretch to believe that possibly Rudy saw a drug dealer making a connection with his supplier right there in front of the house. At that same time, Meredith was arriving at the house from having dinner with her friends. We also know that her cellphone shows that she tried to call home at that very time.

8:56pm (20:56) (Meredith’s house) Meredith’s cell phone calls her mother but call is cut off before it is finished.

If Meredith was making a call home outside with her cellphone at the same time that a drug dealer was picking up his supply in the area of her house, did this drug dealer believe that Meredith was a police informant? Witnessing drug deals have been the reason that others have been murdered by drug gangs.]


I've felt that Rudy mentions the white car and the dealer because he too was ID'd when he made eye contact with the guy. I wonder how long the car was there?

I've sometimes wondered if the black car supposedly seen in parked at the top of the cottage driveway is involved. Might this be Hekuran Kokomani's black Golf, and maybe they were going to try and dispose of Meredith's body somehow, someway, like in a black garbage bag? Kokomani makes mention of seeing a body (Amanda) in a black garbage bag, I wonder why? I don't know. But with the front door left unlocked and found open, and someone with Meredith's keys, who knows what really happened? Rudy does, that's for sure...

Magister and I have wrote that we believe that someone else was with Rudy. Frank Sfarzo has made mention in his cryptic style that he will dig deeper into this after Amanda and Raff are freed. I hope he does so.
Have Hekuran Kokomani's fingerprints been collected and tested against the unidentified finerprints found in the gals apartment? Has his DNA sample been also collected? For some reason, I doubt it...
RW

 

[Malkmus]

This is plainly false. For example the press immediatly dismissed the accusation against Patrick Lumumba stating it was not credible, days before the authorities changed their position.
Moreover, the Italian press reported correctly in real time about the investigation on Knox and Sollecito.
And the Italian press did not publish any pink bathroom picture nor a caption stating there was a blood soaked bathroom. (maybe you confuse that with the UK tabloid press).
No sane person or press source in Italy would think that an Italian authoritiy released a picture (from an existing investigation file) in the UK to create prejudice in Perugia, and that this claim can make sense. But seems you request the Italian press to come out with this nonsense theories, and you call this nonsense "questioning authority".

Moreover you have no proof nor element to state the "Perugian authorities" told lies of any kind.

All what you state is a nonsense series of falsehoods.

I have also explained what the laws are about; I showed why your comparison with Mignini's lawsuits make no sense: Mignini has used a legitimate venue, legal means and timings for his lawsuites (which can be right or wrong, but are legitimate), and was working on a codified charge such as defamation.
Your claim is about a "source" and a "leak" which is an event imagined by yourself and not proven nor corroborated by any element, moreover on topics that have no meaning in Italy and no weight on a trial; and you state that this *investigating the source* is comparable with Mignini sueing a journalist for defamation: this comparison is nonsense.

If you lived in Italy, you would just accept and comprehend the principle that the "leaks" you give much importance to are irrelevant, are unrelated to authority and do not constitute a matter for an investigation on authorites as you think. You would just see that your theory is not only unsupported but illogical.

The Italian press certainly was critical:

It is a fact that in just fourteen days, the case of Meredith Kircher is given loudly for "closed" three times. It is a fact that three times, you trust a reconstruction of the facts and responsibilities of suspects who gets rid of what 's preceded by a stroke of a pen.

Three times it was announced case closed!

Lumumba is a fine liar: his restaurant was closed while killing Meredith and reopens its doors to pre-establish an alibi papier-mâché. Above all, Lumumba is a great Dodger: refined connoisseur of tracking traffic from mobile phones, replacing his unit the day after the crime, in an attempt to hide a text message exchange with Amanda (what it's for having kept the same calling card is a mystery that the investigators do not address). So, like Amanda and Raffaele, deserves no less than a year in custody.

http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubb...2007/11/21/quelle-domande-senza-risposta.html

The above about Patrick, Mach, was written in the Italian press the day before he was released.

 

[Malkmus]

It seems like Patrick found Amanda's statements against him to be rather weak as well during the early days, and wondered why they never asked him for an alibi first:

Nov. 21 2007

The 'police car took him to jail, you open the door of an isolation cell. "The worst thing was not able to find a reason. I, Meredith's house, never entered into my life. But then, because that 'charges? They could ask, before you put the handcuffs, where I was that night or the night? They could do some more investigation? ".Fifteen days in jail for that "vaguely remember". "I have been wondering why Amanda pulled me into dance?

 

[Caper]

Was John Kercher a reporter? If so, what kind of stories did he write and what paper did he work for?