have you watched derren browns "the experiment"

ginjawarrior

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just been watching derren browns "the experiment" where he hypnotized a member of the public to assassinate steven fry

the subject had no idea of what had happened. im guessing this is gonna be gold dust to woo mongers but aside from that i kinda feel its irresponsible to air this

i'd love to hear others thoughts on here
 
Derren Brown is a mentalist, a magician. The performances he does are essentially magic tricks. That being the case, I would assume he uses many of the same techniques other mentalists use, such as audience plants.
 
just been watching derren browns "the experiment" where he hypnotized a member of the public to assassinate steven fry

the subject had no idea of what had happened. im guessing this is gonna be gold dust to woo mongers but aside from that i kinda feel its irresponsible to air this

i'd love to hear others thoughts on here

Does Steven Fry know about this? :eek:
 
channel 4 uk

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/derren-brown-the-experiments/4od#3242945

it was a show to look at the claims about government mind control in the 60's leading to people becoming assassins without their knowledge

derren started with a test group that he hypnotized and then proceeded to pick out the most suggestible out of all of them

that one person was then worked on by derren for a couple of weeks thru hypnotism

it ended up in a theater with a talk with stephen fry (he was in on it and had blood packs hidden under his clothes) when the mark was given the triggers he picked up the gun that was given to him before the show ad fired 3 shots at stephen fry thinking he hit him then went back into a trance

while he slept everything was put back as it was before he fired shots and they woke him back up he had no recollection of what he had done even when the showed the video back to him

i dont believe this was a act from derren was much more an experiment
IMO very much worth the watch if you got the time
 
channel 4 uk

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/derren-brown-the-experiments/4od#3242945

it was a show to look at the claims about government mind control in the 60's leading to people becoming assassins without their knowledge

derren started with a test group that he hypnotized and then proceeded to pick out the most suggestible out of all of them

that one person was then worked on by derren for a couple of weeks thru hypnotism

it ended up in a theater with a talk with stephen fry (he was in on it and had blood packs hidden under his clothes) when the mark was given the triggers he picked up the gun that was given to him before the show ad fired 3 shots at stephen fry thinking he hit him then went back into a trance

while he slept everything was put back as it was before he fired shots and they woke him back up he had no recollection of what he had done even when the showed the video back to him

i dont believe this was a act from derren was much more an experiment
IMO very much worth the watch if you got the time



I did not see the show but why should we believe it was 'real'?

Derren Brown uses the same techniques that other magicians and mentalists use, misdirection and trickery. Given that he has used stooges in the past where is the evidence that this was any different?

The one thing you can pretty much rely on with Derren Brown (and every other magician/mentalist/whatever) is that whatever he says is his method is definitely NOT the way he is acheiving his effect. That you can be sure of!
 
You can watch the full episode from here:



I've seen everything by Derren Brown before, and I'm a big fan, but this one is a bit puzzling. I enjoyed watching it, but was left with the strong impression that Derren Brown actively endorses the idea that through heavy suggestion and hypnotism one can "program" a person to commit something as serious as this (shoot someone in public), even if the person has no previous reasons or motives to do it. Makes me want to look into it more closely, if it's purely woo, I think he has crossed the line here.
 
I did not see the show but why should we believe it was 'real'?


I don't think we should, but if the idea is bunk, we should ask why Derren and his team seems to endorse it so strongly.

Given that he has used stooges in the past where is the evidence that this was any different?


Evidence? Context?
 
It's purely woo.

A person cannot be "programmed" like that. There's no way a person can be influenced that easily, in that short a time span.

Derren Brown endorses a lot of things which are highly unlikely to be factual.
 
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I love Derren Brown, but my general opinion of him is this:

He does "programming" and tricks of persuasion only in the sense and to the extent that a magician casts spells. His actual tricks are those of misdirection, sleight of hand, memory, and the like.
 
It's purely woo.

A person cannot be "programmed" like that. There's no way a person can be influenced that easily, in that short a time span.

Derren Brown endorses a lot of things which are highly unlikely to be factual.


What is the time span you're talking about?

Yes he does, but like I said, this one is different. At least it seems different* to me.

*Edit: Clarification, throughout the episode he compares the situation to the guy that shot Robert Kennedy, who claims he was "programmed" to do it. Derren seems to strongly endorse the idea that the guy actually could've been "programmed" to kill Kennedy.

EDIT 2: Here's a link to a video interview where Derren discusses the episode, use the arrows to find "Derren Discusses the Assassin": http://www.channel4.com/programmes/derren-brown/articles/derren-brown-on-channel-4
 
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Yes he does, but like I said, this one is different. At least it seems different* to me.

*Edit: Clarification, throughout the episode he compares the situation to the guy that shot Robert Kennedy, who claims he was "programmed" to do it. Derren seems to strongly endorse the idea that the guy actually could've been "programmed" to kill Kennedy.


Of course he does! That's his whole schtick!

He's a mentalist. Do you know what that means? He's a stage magician who performs tricks wherein he appears to read or control peoples' minds.

What part of "it's a trick" don't you understand?

Assuming such a thing even were possible in the first place, do you think he would really take the chance of deliberately "programming" somebody to attempt the murder of another human being?

Derren Brown is a good showman. He pulled off a convincing magic trick. You were fooled. Get over it already.
 
Of course he does! That's his whole schtick!

He's a mentalist. Do you know what that means? He's a stage magician who performs tricks wherein he appears to read or control peoples' minds.

What part of "it's a trick" don't you understand?

Assuming such a thing even were possible in the first place, do you think he would really take the chance of deliberately "programming" somebody to attempt the murder of another human being?

Derren Brown is a good showman. He pulled off a convincing magic trick. You were fooled. Get over it already.


:boggled:

What on earth are you talking about. Of course I know what a mentalist is, of course I know that Derren gives the impression that he's doing some sort of a psychological trick when he's in fact doing a simple sleight of a hand or something like that. What he does here to the guy and the audience is a combination of different tricks as usual, BUT, he compares this process to the guy who killed Robert Kennedy in a way that makes it seem like he actually endorses the idea that the killer of Robert Kennedy could've been "programmed" to do it. That's where I think he crosses the line this time, have you even seen the episode?


EDIT: ...or even read the thread:

bencg said:
I did not see the show but why should we believe it was 'real'?

Kuko 4000 said:
I don't think we should
 
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The trick comes less in the hypnosis part and more in the selecting the right person part. Does anyone doubt that you could get a Jeffrey Dahmer to kill and eat someone?

Do terrorists hypnotize their suicide bombers with mysterious Darren Brown techniques?
 
What he does here to the guy and the audience is a combination of different tricks as usual


That girl he did the "glued hands" trick on was an obvious plant. Watch her behavior immediately after the trick was over. She acted totally unlike a person who'd just been singled out by a magician in the middle of a live show.


BUT, he compares this process to the guy who killed Robert Kennedy in a way that makes it seem like he actually endorses the idea that the killer of Robert Kennedy could've been "programmed" to do it. That's where I think he crosses the line this time, have you even seen the episode?


Yeah I watched it. He's talking BS about the Robert Kennedy assassination to bolster the credibility of his act. Sure it's irresponsible, but what do you expect?

Derren Brown is an "edgy" TV entertainer. He's kind of known for treading the line of controversy in the way he presents his tricks. Remember the one where he played Russian roulette with a gun loaded by a member of the audience? Or the one where he stopped random people on the street, asked them for directions, and then supposedly talked them into giving him their wallets, keys, mobile phones, and wristwatches? Do you think those tricks were real? Of course not. They were staged magic tricks that relied on paid actors, audience plants and stooges. It totally does not surprise me that Derren Brown would stoop to exploiting a 40-year-old political assassination for some TV ratings.

There has never been any compelling evidence to believe it's even possible to hypnotize and "program" somebody against their will to commit an assassination.

Of course "brainwashing" is possible in some cases, in the form of a general, forced ideological realignment. But that is a much different thing from basic hypnosis. Real "brainwashing" techniques are violent and abusive, involving long periods of physical and psychological torture. It exploits the Stockholm Syndrome by meting out intermittent cycles of punishment and reward with no predictable pattern, until the captive's mental state breaks down to the point of total physical and emotional dependence on the captor. At that point the captive becomes highly vulnerable to suggestion. That kind of brainwashing does not work on everybody, and it still does not involve "programming" a person to autonomously carry out a task against his own will without any knowledge or memory.

Derren Brown, however, is not going to torture, starve and thirst some poor audience member half to death for the purposes of a TV show. And I certainly think that if it even were possible to "program" a person to become an assassin, it would be highly irresponsible for a TV entertainer to do that for a live performance. What if something went wrong? What if the guy somehow managed to obtain a real gun on his own? What if he decided to use a different method of murder, or to kill somebody else? The whole thing is obviously a complete hoax, a magic trick.


As for the actual Robert Kennedy assassination, Sirhan Sirhan (himself a native Palestinian) admitted he was strongly opposed to Kennedy's pro-Israel political stance, so he had a more than adequate motive for a political assassination. I think he probably adopted the "preprogrammed zombie assassin" defense because of the popularity of the movie The Manchurian Candidate, and the rumors of US prisoners of war being brainwashed in Korea from a few years prior. It's not unheard of for criminals in high-profile jury trials to invoke pop-culture psychology memes in their defense.
 
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I don't think we should, but if the idea is bunk, we should ask why Derren and his team seems to endorse it so strongly.


Because he's a showman? I don't think he normally peddles woo as such but in the past he has trod a fine line at times. It would not surprise me if he was promoting a bunk idea like 'programming' and justifying it as misdirection. I have enjoyed some articles and stuff he has written about magic and in print he appears to be far more clearly anti-woo than he is in his shows. I have always thought his shows were kind of rubbish though.


Evidence? Context?


Well I cannot find where I read this; it was on a magic forum and people were discussing watching his live shows and seeing the same volunteers at different shows. But, it would be a weak source anyway, and its not actually relevant in that the method could be anything.
 
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The trick comes less in the hypnosis part and more in the selecting the right person part. Does anyone doubt that you could get a Jeffrey Dahmer to kill and eat someone?


I do doubt it, I mean as in doing all this covertly and being able to control them precisely enough. I also assume that if programming actually worked in this way then it would be being studied and used in the real world and would not be the preserve of men in black and Derren Brown. It would have many real world applications (besides manchurian candidate scenarios) like in education and rehabilitation etc. As such it's an extraordinary claim, and Derren Brown is a magician.


Do terrorists hypnotize their suicide bombers with mysterious Darren Brown techniques?


No.
 
But that's my point. You don't have to use mysterious techniques to force someone to become an assassin. You just find someone who will do it for whatever reason.

It's the same way you find someone who will quack like a duck on stage. You aren't forcing them to do it, you might be giving them permission in a way, but it certainly isn't akin to programming a computer.

So you convince someone you'll be playing a prank or something, or acting in a little play... I don't see the difference here, unless you buy into some idea about the subject thinking he really killed someone. Was that the entertainment value here?

"Oh my gosh, that hypnotist got that girl to kiss a pig and believe she was kissing the prime minister."
 
John Albert, do you have any proof that he uses actors and stooges, or are you simply making an assumption?
 
John Albert said:
That girl he did the "glued hands" trick on was an obvious plant. Watch her behavior immediately after the trick was over. She acted totally unlike a person who'd just been singled out by a magician in the middle of a live show.


That's the simplest explanation to me too, but I wouldn't go that far with so little information. I don't know how people should act in these situations though, do you? That might just be a form of "playing along" hypnotism, instead of an "obvious plant" in the audience. For me her behaviour was in line with the wide range of what I've seen before in similar situations. How much do you know about stage hypnotism?


Yeah I watched it. He's talking BS about the Robert Kennedy assassination to bolster the credibility of his act. Sure it's irresponsible, but what do you expect?


...something else, I think he crossed the line this time. For some people he crossed the line earlier, but for me this seems to be it. There was no alternative BS explanation offered this time, and the endorsment seemed very strong to me.

The Channel 4 site for "The Experiments" gives a more neutral feel than the actual episode: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/derren-brown-the-experiments/articles/delving-deeper-the-assassin


...text and text...Russian roulette...Do you think those tricks were real? Of course not.


Again, no, of course not.

:confused:

They were staged magic tricks that relied on paid actors, audience plants and stooges.


Evidence and context please? Or are you saying there can't be other ways of achieving the same effects? We could use the opinion of a magician, how familiar are you with the profession?


The whole thing is obviously a complete hoax, a magic trick.


...ummm, of course it was a magic show.

As for the actual Robert Kennedy assassination, Sirhan Sirhan (himself a native Palestinian) admitted he was strongly opposed to Kennedy's pro-Israel political stance, so he had a more than adequate motive for a political assassination. I think he probably adopted the "preprogrammed zombie assassin" defense because of the popularity of the movie The Manchurian Candidate, and the rumors of US prisoners of war being brainwashed in Korea from a few years prior. It's not unheard of for criminals in high-profile jury trials to invoke pop-culture psychology memes in their defense.


Well, yeah, my problem is with Derren connecting it to a real life person and ongoing situation, and it's not subtle, he doesn't seem to offer any alternative BS explanation to fall back on this time.
 

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