• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
I have recently become interested in the Meredith Kercher case and I have a few questions (which were probably already discussed here but I can't go through all these long threads). The Massei report notes some inconsistencies in Amanda's account of the events around the murder and I would like to know if the Amanda/Raffaele defense addressed the following and how:

Page 78: The time of Amanda and Raffaele's dinner on November 1, 2007 - Amanda said they had it around 9:30-10:00 pm or even 11 pm, but according to a phone call between Raffaele and his father, the dinner was before 8:42 pm.

Pages 78-81: Witness Antonio Curatolo said that he had seen Amanda and Raffaele in a town square between 10-11 pm on the evening of November 1, 2007, while Amanda claimed that she and Raffaele had been in Raffaele's house the whole evening and night.

Pages 83-85: Witness Marco Quintavalle said that he had seen Amanda in his shop around 7:45 am on November 2, 2007, while Amanda said that she was sleeping in Raffaele's house from the night of November 1 to about 10:00-10:30 am November 2.
 
Can anyone point me to any research or information about the false negative rates of TMB? And has anyone studied what the probability is of a positive luminol hit and then a false negative for TMB?

I keep seeing the pro guilt folks arguing that blood comes up negative in a TMB test 50% of the time and can't imagine that is true?

That's a misinterpretation of what Gino said. She testified in her experience that due to the greater selectivity of TMB, that roughly half of all things picked up by luminol would test negative with a TMB test. In other words there are things other than blood that will cause a positive reaction to luminol and TMB, and in her experience there's about twice as many that do so with luminol than TMB as the latter is less likely to be 'fooled.'

As for false negatives, you won't find much literature about that because it's a natural chemical reaction. As long as there's something to oxidize the reagent TMB (Tetramethylbenzidine) then it will change colors, just like luminol, another reagent, will light up really cool, called 'chemiluminescence.' Think of it like water boiling, as long as there's enough heat, water will boil at some point, though it may be affected by air pressure or something in the water.

In the case of a TMB test the things that can interfere with it are basically dilution, age and the presence of a reduction agent. After the discovery of the negative TMB tests, Stefanoni hit the books and developed the 'hypothesis' that the material tested was between the detection threshold of luminol and TMB, meaning it was too diluted to be picked up with TMB but could be revealed with luminol. Unfortunately she, nor Massei, realized that doesn't work either, as if it was diluted to that extent it wouldn't have lit up so much for the pictures, and how she described in court that she 'knew' it was blood due to the intensity of the reaction.

As for age, that doesn't work either, they're talking on the order of years not weeks. There's a number of papers that have been posted by both sides in this debate demonstrating positive blood tests after years of potential decay.

As for reduction agents, that ought to have interfered with the luminol test as well, and if for some esoteric reason they didn't, then it would have to have been extremely localized as it didn't interfere with the TMB tests performed on Rudy's bloody shoeprints right next to some of them, making it pretty much assured they would have had to have been actually on the feet (or whatever--some of these don't actually look much like footprints to me) of the person who made them, and a lot of the most common reduction agents are kinda nasty. One is aluminum-something or another which is rather acidic. At this point I opted out, any further questions can be directed to the biochemist! :)

Just so this might make more sense, here's how it's supposed to work. They spray luminol in suspected areas as it's easy to use on big areas and it will discover potential blood even when you can't see it. Then they look at what lights up and ones that look like they might be blood traces (a perfect square far more likely to be where a metallic object sat for years) and they test them with TMB to verify. Then they take the sample back to the lab for the confirmation test which actually proves for human blood, and a DNA test it to determine who it belonged to.

In this case Stefanoni applied the luminol, tested the items with TMB and got a negative, then took them back where (almost all) tested negative for DNA. Nothing was ever reported about a confirmatory test. So they went to court, lied about the negative TMB test, had it discovered later in the process and then came up with that 'hypothesis' that it could be between the detection thresholds and Comodi said 'It could be turnip juice or blood, you decide.' Then they pretended they hadn't lied about the TMB test because only a confirmatory test, that they never reported doing, actually proves for blood!

So in other words, they tried to claim because of the presumptive luminol test it was definitely blood, but they didn't lie about the TMB test because it's a presumptive test too and doesn't count as a blood test, so they never actually tested for blood because they didn't do (or report...) a confirmatory test!

'Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.'
 
Last edited:
BTW, did anyone see this picture? Rocco Girlanda just posted it on his Facebook. It's right before Amanda's departure to Rome, from what I understand. Touching.
That is actually a beautiful picture. Something transcendent about it.
 
In the case of a TMB test the things that can interfere with it are basically dilution, age and the presence of a reduction agent. After the discovery of the negative TMB tests, Stefanoni hit the books and developed the 'hypothesis' that the material tested was between the detection threshold of luminol and TMB, meaning it was too diluted to be picked up with TMB but could be revealed with luminol. Unfortunately she, nor Massei, realized that doesn't work either, as if it was diluted to that extent it wouldn't have light up so much for the pictures, and how she described in court that she 'knew' it was blood due to the intensity of the reaction.

Weren't the pictures over-exposed, the luminol appearing brighter in the photographs than it really was? I remember that being discussed a while ago but I'm not sure how it would affect that theory.
 
Thank you Kaosium for that very detailed and thoughtful response! My ask if they said why they didn't perform the confirmatory test and what that test would have comprised of? That seems crazy to me that they wouldn't do it( unless they did perform the test and didn't like the results).

Thanks again!!
 
Your negativity towards Amanda's exoneration is unwelcome. Thanks for stopping by, LJ.

Just kidding ;). Actually, I've found your informed analysis and objectivity on this case hard to fault, and a real resource in understanding this case. If only certain others imagining themselves to be authorities on the details of the case could be as impartial.


While I agree with all that, if what you say about the SC only considering points of law is correct, then how can they take into account the evidence of police coercion?

In American law the voluntariness of a statement made to police is considered a question of law. Perhaps that is the same in Italian law?

Also, it seems to me that the defense has a pretty good argument that the evidence of coercion is strong enough at least to create reasonable doubt as to the the requisite mens rea of the offense. The legal sufficiency of the evidence is a question of law.
 
I have recently become interested in the Meredith Kercher case and I have a few questions (which were probably already discussed here but I can't go through all these long threads). The Massei report notes some inconsistencies in Amanda's account of the events around the murder and I would like to know if the Amanda/Raffaele defense addressed the following and how:

Page 78: The time of Amanda and Raffaele's dinner on November 1, 2007 - Amanda said they had it around 9:30-10:00 pm or even 11 pm, but according to a phone call between Raffaele and his father, the dinner was before 8:42 pm.

Pages 78-81: Witness Antonio Curatolo said that he had seen Amanda and Raffaele in a town square between 10-11 pm on the evening of November 1, 2007, while Amanda claimed that she and Raffaele had been in Raffaele's house the whole evening and night.

Pages 83-85: Witness Marco Quintavalle said that he had seen Amanda in his shop around 7:45 am on November 2, 2007, while Amanda said that she was sleeping in Raffaele's house from the night of November 1 to about 10:00-10:30 am November 2.

The first discrepancy is trivia. People don't have perfect memories.

The credibility of Curatolo was questioned during the first trial, it was totally destroyed during the appeal.

As for the third, let me quote from a summary of Raffaele's appeal:
The court inexplicably ignored the testimony of Inspector Orestes Volturno who subsequently questioned Quintavalle after the initial questioning that happened within a day or so of the murder. Volturno's service record shows he questioned Quintavalle on November 19, 2007. The record makes it clear he was shown photos of Amanda and Raffaele and he said they had been to his store two or so times but not on November 2nd. and they were always together. The record shows Volturno went with officer Stephen Gubbiotti. The record indicates that they spoke with Quintavalle and then his two employees. On March 21, 2009 Volturno testifies to the same. Volturno showed Quintavalle pictures of Amanda and Raffaele and Quintavalle denied she was in his store on November 2, 2007.

Quintavalle only came forward almost a year later following contact with a reporter which ended up getting him on TV. Quintavalle claims Amanda was wearing a cap and scarf and she wore a grey jacket. Quintavalle states that he only saw the side of Amanda's face. Then he claims it was Amanda's blue eyes that he remembers despite earlier saying he never saw the front of her face. No grey coat was ever found to be part of Amanda's clothing and it doesn't match anything anyone else ever saw. Ana Marina Chiriboga who worked in the store was asked in October, 2008 if she had seen Amanda on November 2, 2007 and she said no which she repeated in court on June 26, 2009.

Memories change over time, but they don't get more accurate.
 
I have recently become interested in the Meredith Kercher case and I have a few questions (which were probably already discussed here but I can't go through all these long threads). The Massei report notes some inconsistencies in Amanda's account of the events around the murder and I would like to know if the Amanda/Raffaele defense addressed the following and how:

Hi! Welcome to the thread! :)

Page 78: The time of Amanda and Raffaele's dinner on November 1, 2007 - Amanda said they had it around 9:30-10:00 pm or even 11 pm, but according to a phone call between Raffaele and his father, the dinner was before 8:42 pm.

Amanda was stoned on hash and cuddling with her boyfriend watching movies not paying any attention to the clock and made it clear she didn't know for sure. She just thought it was 'late' which a dinner about 8 PM would be for most Americans.

Pages 78-81: Witness Antonio Curatolo said that he had seen Amanda and Raffaele in a town square between 10-11 pm on the evening of November 1, 2007, while Amanda claimed that she and Raffaele had been in Raffaele's house the whole evening and night.

Curatolo was a homeless drug-dealer and user under investigation from the police due to them having pictures of him peddling smack from ~2003 and this was the third murder trial he'd testified at in that short time. He admitted he was high on smack when he was recalled for the appeal, reiterated that he saw the college kids walking around in masks and boarding disco buses--which would have been Halloween, not November first when Meredith was killed. He also wasn't quite sure where he was living at the time he re-testified, which was prison incidentally.

He was laughed out of court, and if you think on it would actually give Amanda and Raffaele an 'alibi' for the scientific time of death were his testimony accurate. In fact, it was his rambling on the stand which caused Mignini to have to extend the time of death to 11:30 in his closing remarks, which Massei had to extend to 11:40 when writing the report as that didn't allow time for the murder and the dying part. Note that in Italy they are supposed to allow any person who can have information about a case to testify, which leads to weirdos like this guy and later Aviello testifying to absurd things for whatever reason people do that.

Pages 83-85: Witness Marco Quintavalle said that he had seen Amanda in his shop around 7:45 am on November 2, 2007, while Amanda said that she was sleeping in Raffaele's house from the night of November 1 to about 10:00-10:30 am November 2.

Quintavalle came forward a year later at the repeated urgings of a journalist and his story was refuted by the records of Inspector Volturno who'd interviewed him at the time and showed him pictures of Raffaele and Amanda and he'd denied seeing them that morning. The person that was working with him also said they didn't see Raffaele or Amanda. His claim was that he saw Amanda lurking around the bleach, which is damned curious as they had bleach, didn't use bleach, and there wasn't a clean-up. He also claimed to have a perfect memory of what Amanda was wearing, which matched the famous picture of Amanda wearing Raffaele's jacket/sweatshirt at the scene, which was a one-time event due to the fact Amanda couldn't get any of her things from inside the cottage as it was a crime scene and she was cold.

There was a sparse report from an Italian outlet that suggested the day of the appeal verdict that he'd recanted his testimony or something. I never saw any more detail than that and it hasn't been followed up on, probably as his testimony was already discredited and it was the shame of the Massei Court they ever accepted it.
 
Here is something I could use some help with.

http://translate.googleusercontent....greto/&usg=ALkJrhjdqK32nZXw8rE2gNTZwVhKYCW9ig

I am curious just how much of the courts deliberations a judge/juror is allowed to discuss (beyond the Motivation report). Certainly we have had Hellmann and another judge discussing why they found Raffaele innocent. Is there something different about this? Curious, sounds familiar the book part anyway. Does anyone have some information on this?

I think they're not allowed to discuss what went on during the deliberations; when Hellmann gave his interview it was on condition that he wasn't asked about the discussions in the jury room (or whatever it would be termed when there are only judges instead of a jury!). Neither Hellmann nor the alternate judge spoke about that (not sure that the alternate would even have been present) but apparently that's what this woman is writing a book about. No idea what she's supposed to have said, though.
 
animal blood

Kaosium,

Good summary. I just wanted to add that animal blood will also give a false positive in the luminol or TMB tests, in addition to other substances.
 
Unfortunately the venue, (CNN In Sessions) where I often read Amanda's testimony and knew where things were, was erased for some reason. However as I recall, Amanda whose Italian was marginal at this point, testified she was simply trying to say it wasn't always unlocked. Whereas Filomena is trying to say Amanda meant something unlikely--that Meredith locked her door even when she took a shower. How do you suppose that works out with the key and all in her bathrobe and everything? :)

Two relevant snippets of testimony:

Testimony said:
LG: How did you interpret the fact that Meredith's door was locked right then? Did it seem to you something normal or abnormal? Did it happen sometimes or very rarely?

AK: Well, it happened to me sometimes to find that her door was locked, for example if I called Meredith and she had just gotten out of the shower, and wanted to change her clothes, and I would get near the door, I would notice it was locked. But, then she was inside. She also locked it when she went to England. But the fact that it was locked then, I didn't know if she had gone to England, and if it was locked and she wasn't inside, for me that was strange and I didn't...

Testimony said:
GM: How then, when later Romanelli arrived, you said that it was normal for Meredith to lock her door. Yet you tried to break it down. Can you explain this?

AK: Certainly. When the police came they asked, at least they asked Filomena, if that door was ever locked, and she said "No no no no, it's never, never locked." I said "No, that's not true that it's really never locked," because sometimes it actually was locked. But for me, it was strange that it was locked and she wasn't answering, so for me it was strange, but I wanted to explain that it wasn't impossible, that she did lock her door now and then.

In my view this nonsense about the locked door was utterly demolished by the revelation that Raffaele had in fact called 112 before the Postal Police arrived. They had no reason to delay the discovery of the body.
 
Weren't the pictures over-exposed, the luminol appearing brighter in the photographs than it really was? I remember that being discussed a while ago but I'm not sure how it would affect that theory.

Yes, as LondonJohn posted, by about three times compared to normal. However the information available to me suggests that isn't enough of a difference, it looks more like orders of magnitude. However I suppose if you want to go finding out how to convert AUs to RFUs and try to compute it exactly I would be most interested in your results. I hope you find it fun and profitable and realize when you're done with all that, what was was accomplished was to put it back in the category of at least 240 things (in one study alone!) that might also be found in common households that will light up luminol and show that level of chemiluminescence. :p

I'm kidding of course, I spent hours myself trying to determine how to make that conversion and find out WTF an 'AU' even is! Then I just looked at the damn pictures from both studies, noted the change in luminosity compared to different dilution levels, and that a mere three times wouldn't seem to be anywhere close to enough, and it finally occurred to me even if it did, then I was back to where it could be any number of things and felt really stupid about it. :o
 
Last edited:
As an aside when do we find out how the 'jury' voted - does that come in the motivation report?
 
antibodies

Thank you Kaosium for that very detailed and thoughtful response! My ask if they said why they didn't perform the confirmatory test and what that test would have comprised of? That seems crazy to me that they wouldn't do it( unless they did perform the test and didn't like the results).

Thanks again!!
Mairanse,

The confirmatory tests that come to mind are all based on antibodies to substances found in blood but not other tissues. It is odd that they did not do more confirmatory testing, although they did do some.
 
Madrigal,

The information about what Amanda said with respect to the door came from Luca, IIRC. There could easily have been a language-based misunderstanding. Amanda was reported to have said that Meredith locked her door when she showered and when she took an out-of-town trip (perhaps to England). If Amanda said it to someone whose English was not good, he or she could have inferred "always locked her door, even when she showered and went away" when what Amanda meant was more like "only locked her door on these occasions." I seem to recall that Katy_did commented on this long ago.

I always wondered whether what Amanda meant to say was that Meredith did (sometimes) lock her door, for example when she went away to England, and also when she took a shower (presumably meaning when she got changed after having a shower) but that she phrased it similarly to the way Massei does in his report: Meredith locked her door when she went away and "anche quando andava al bagno per fare una doccia". Massei means Meredith locked her door even when she took a shower, but the same phrase can equally mean "also when".

So perhaps - given that Amanda's Italian was basic and that she probably wasn't that adept at signalling context (context being the only way of distinguishing between the two meanings, so far as I'm aware) - she was trying to say "But Meredith did [sometimes] lock her door, she locked it when she went away to England and also when she took a shower", while what Luca heard was "But Meredith did lock her door, she locked it when she went away to England and even when she took a shower!!!" Easy to wrongly assume from the latter phrase that Meredith always locked her door.

At any rate, there are so many possible misunderstandings given the language issues that it seems crazy to attribute any significance to it - especially when it makes no sense that Amanda would have wanted to delay the door being broken down anyway. As charlatan said, the 112 call being made before the postal police arrived destroys any importance the locked door question may have had.
 
Last edited:
Mairanse,

The confirmatory tests that come to mind are all based on antibodies to substances found in blood but not other tissues. It is odd that they did not do more confirmatory testing, although they did do some.

But I'm assuming none could show the luminol hits were definitely blood?
 
Yes, as LondonJohn posted, by about three times compared to normal. However the information available to me suggests that isn't enough of a difference, it looks more like orders of magnitude. However I suppose if you want to go finding out how to convert AUs to RFUs and try to compute it exactly I would be most interested in your results. I hope you find it fun and profitable and realize when you're done all that, what was was accomplished was to put it back in the category of at least 240 things (in one study alone!) that might also be found in common households that will light up luminol and show that level of chemiluminescence. :p

I'm kidding of course, I spent hours myself trying to determine how to make that conversion and find out WTF an 'AU' even is! Then I just looked at the damn pictures from both studies, noted the change in luminosity compared to different dilution levels, and that a mere three times wouldn't seem to be anywhere close to enough, and it finally occurred to me even if it did, then I was back to where it could be any number of things and felt really stupid about it. :o

Ha, well yes, it makes no difference at all really! The only way the footprints are incriminating is if one of them was Raffaele's, which is why the prosecution tried desperately to argue that one of them was. They knew if all of them were Amanda's they could easily be explained away (even if in dilute blood, as the prosecution claimed).

As far as whether the dilute blood theory can be ruled out, I'm still not sure on that one. It seems like there are a lot of variables we still don't know a lot about, in terms of how they might affect the tests (for example, if the floor was very dirty - as this one must have been - how would that affect the result of the swabbed TMB sample versus the luminol test? Did they take the swabs properly? What's the difference between the diluted blood content in the swab compared to that in the footprint itself - it must be less, but how much less?). But it could just be that I haven't done enough research into it yet to be convinced, where you obviously have! The study with the pictures sounds interesting; I've only seen the table with numbers, which I looked at with a very vague semi-comprehension.

But ultimately, as you say, it doesn't really matter: Amanda was walking around barefoot that morning, so even if we accept everything the prosecution claimed (they were hers, made in dilute blood) they're not incriminating unless they can also pin one on Raffaele. Which they tried desperately to do, but trying to say those amorphous blobs could be matched to anyone was always a nonsense.
 
cat blood downstairs

But I'm assuming none could show the luminol hits were definitely blood?
Mairanse,

The whole point of confirmatory blood tests is to examine an item of evidence that gave a positive result with a presumptive blood test with a second test that is less prone to false negatives. I seem to recall that Stefanoni used a confirmatory test to determine that some blood in the downstairs apartment was cat blood. She also used a confirmatory test on the presumed blood substance on the sill in Filomena's room. RoseMontague had a post on this some time ago.
 
It is amazing how different people can interpret the same statement. Sara Gino testified that about half the TMB tests run on positive Luminol hits come up negative. Some are taking that to mean the TMB did not detect the blood. That is simply not what she meant. What she was saying is that Luminol is so sensitive and so prone to react to other things that the TMB test does not and that those 50% negative TMB tests are actually false positive Luminol tests.
 
Point of information. Can someone tell me exactly what counts A to D were? I know E was the staging of the break-in, and I'm assuming A was the actual murder, but I'm not entirely clear exactly what charges Knox and Sollecito were absolved on.

Rolfe.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom