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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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What is even more a mind-boggletation here is that they did not even test the rock until the defense insisted on it. I doubt Stefi really tried very hard to find anything, same with reps 198/199.


Steffanoni's decisions on what to concentrate on are bizarre. To go bananas cranking up the sensitivity on a knife with no DNA on it, that was neither found at the murder scene nor fitted the imprints of knives associated with the murder, while not testing that alleged semen stain - what's that all about?

Rolfe.
 
Absolutely no. Hellmann explicitly declared that it would be wrong to criticize the prosecution.
And, as I said, there is a big number of judges and magistrates who subscried to the guilty scenario and who still do, so it makes no sense to "blame" MIgnini.

Some of the points you make against Mignini, are false, or judements made by the US press, and by some minority Italian gossip magazines.
There are no "prejudicial" arguments, except those that you believe they exist because you leart about them by the falsely reporting English speaking media. There is no lie to the press; there is instead a big number of proven lies by the press, for example the CNN interview falsely reported.
There is no unlawful interrogation; instead there is a defendant who was convicted for calunnia, which means proven to be a malicious liar beyond doubt.

What is 'falsely reported' about the CNN interview?

If the police broke the law (section 141 bis) during the interrogation, and the statements were thrown out by the Supreme Court, then how is it that the interrogation was not 'unlawful?'
 
It would seem common sense to ask FR what items were not in the position she left them in and then test those items. We know the rock was handled by the burglar/stager, but no result on that one. We do know that Filomena indicated one item that had changed position and that was her computer. If the burglar that left the presumed blood substance on the broken window, they could have left a trace of blood or DNA on the computer. Of course, the crack team let Filomena in to take her computer, failed to take pictures of the glass on clothes, and as far as I can tell, failed to ask her a simple question of what is different from how you left it?


Again, this is nuts. The alleged glass-on-top-of-ransacked-items is a major point repeated by the guilt camp, but there's no evidence for this. Which items was the glass on top of? We have no photos to show this, so how can we tell if anyone's recollection is correct?

Is it possible Filomena left some items of clothing lying around when she went out? If the glass is on top of items that were already lying there, then so what. Where's the evidence there was glass on top of something Filomena has sworn definitely was not left lying by her? There isn't any.

And it seems Filomena barged her way in and took her computer before any of this was looked at in the first place. What if her movements during that exercise showered some loose glass on top of ransacked clothing at that stage?

For this allegation about glass on top of clothes to point strongly to a botched staging, there would have had to be meticulous investigation of all these points, and it seems none of that information exists. I just don't believe in the glass on top of ransacked items story. If something like that was notived, and it was so damn important and significant, why the hell not document it with photographs and detailed descriptions?

Rolfe.
 
You have to accept that Amanda is a proven liar.

Right from the start she..

1) Lied about Mez's door always being closed.

2) Lied about Mez being a close friend of hers.


All the witnesses testified under oath otherwise...THEY told the truth!

1. Says who? How do you know Amanda lied about the door? I don't think it was a lie, simply beacuse Amanda and Meredith were much closer to each other than to Filomena or Laura, therefore, if anyone knew about Meredith closing the door, then it would be Amanda, not Filomena. There must've been hundreds of situations where Amanda noticed Meredith locking her door, beacuse their rooms were close both to each other and to the shared bathroom.

2. How do you know that? There were clear indicators that the two were good pals to say the least:
- SMSs Meredith and Amanda sent to each other few days before the murder(one on 31st of October where Amanda asked Meredith to go out with her) ended with kisses,
- they went out to the music concert week before the murder
- apparently Amanda and Meredith liked to lay on the balcony together just to catch some sun
- no witness testified that Amanda and Meredith didn't like each other, no one said they hated each other, no one claimed there were fights
- Meredith and her friends went with Amanda to Le Chic(?) to support her during the early days
 
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BTW, did anyone see this picture? Rocco Girlanda just posted it on his Facebook. It's right before Amanda's departure to Rome, from what I understand. Touching.
 

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You have to accept that Amanda is a proven liar.

Right from the start she..

1) Lied about Mez's door always being closed.

2) Lied about Mez being a close friend of hers.

All the witnesses testified under oath otherwise...THEY told the truth!


You don't know that at all. She could have stated her honest belief about Meredith's door, while her housemates stated theirs. Either could be wrong. Amanda may be more likely to be right as her room was in the same part of the house as Meredith's.

Nobody is a "close" friend of anybody's after the short time these girls knew each other. There's plenty of evidence they were on perfectly friendly terms, and other acquaintances passing on bitchy gossip doesn't change that.

Maybe you've never said something a bit snarky about a friend behind her back, but I can assure you many people do.

Rolfe.
 
You don't know that at all. She could have stated her honest belief about Meredith's door, while her housemates stated theirs. Either could be wrong. Amanda may be more likely to be right as her room was in the same part of the house as Meredith's.

Nobody is a "close" friend of anybody's after the short time these girls knew each other. There's plenty of evidence they were on perfectly friendly terms, and other acquaintances passing on bitchy gossip doesn't change that.

Maybe you've never said something a bit snarky about a friend behind her back, but I can assure you many people do.

Rolfe.


Its a convoluted reply..they were all living in the same house and for a long enough amount of time to know the habits of other housemates. Moreover the other housemates had no reason to lie about the matter.
 
someone is on a roll

You have to accept that Amanda is a proven liar.

Right from the start she..

1) Lied about Mez's door always being closed.

2) Lied about Mez being a close friend of hers.


All the witnesses testified under oath otherwise...THEY told the truth!
Madrigal,

The information about what Amanda said with respect to the door came from Luca, IIRC. There could easily have been a language-based misunderstanding. Amanda was reported to have said that Meredith locked her door when she showered and when she took an out-of-town trip (perhaps to England). If Amanda said it to someone whose English was not good, he or she could have inferred "always locked her door, even when she showered and went away" when what Amanda meant was more like "only locked her door on these occasions." I seem to recall that Katy_did commented on this long ago.

We know that Amanda sent Meredith a friendly text message on Halloween. There were allegedly photos of the two of them at the chocolate festival, and they went to a concert together. Can you document where Amanda specifically said "close friend?"
 
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Its a convoluted reply..they were all living in the same house and for a long enough amount of time to know the habits of other housemates. Moreover the other housemates had no reason to lie about the matter.

You don't seem to be really trying to understand what is written in response.

We're too familiar with this kind of reaction, but here we go again. The two girls, Amanda and Meredith, had their rooms close to each other and they shared a bathroom. Their section of the cottage was at the very end of the whole building and it was often reffered to as a new part. Filomena's and Laura's rooms were rather far from Amanda's and Meredith's. Amanda would see Meredith leaving her room and going into the bathroom without even leaving her own room, it's therefore very possible that Amanda knew better what Meredith was doing when she left her room, if she closed the door or not.

Also, answer, please Rose's question.
 
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BTW, did anyone see this picture? Rocco Girlanda just posted it on his Facebook. It's right before Amanda's departure to Rome, from what I understand. Touching.

It is a touching shot. Thanks for posting this.

I have no doubt that certain parties will find something nasty about this.
 
Closed or locked are about the same word in Italian.

How would Filomena know that Meredith never locked her door unless she tested the door while others were not there.

They didn't have similar schedules as Filomena had a regular job not a school schedule
 
interesting term

spectral evidence

Increase Mather, the father of Cotton, published what has been called "America's first tract on evidence," a work entitled Cases of Conscience, which argued that it "were better that ten suspected witches should escape than one innocent person should be condemned."

Increase Mather urged the court to exclude spectral evidence. Samuel Willard, a highly regarded Boston minister, circulated Some Miscellany Observations, which suggested that the Devil might create the specter of an innocent person. Mather's and Willard's works were given to Governor Phips. The writings most likely influenced the decision of Phips to order the court to exclude spectral evidence and touching tests and to require proof of guilt by clear and convincing evidence. With spectral evidence not admitted, twenty-eight of the last thirty-three witchcraft trials ended in acquittals. The three convicted witches were later pardoned. In May of 1693, Phips released from prison all remaining accused or convicted witches.

Wiki-> Spectral evidence is a form of evidence based upon dreams and visions.



> Seems to me Migninni and Giobbi still rely on "spectral evidence".
 
No, all the statements are admissible in the issue of the Lumumba slander. They were only inadmissible in the murder trial, as they were self-incriminating statements made by Knox under unlawful circumstances (not being read rights, no access to legal representation). There is prima facie evidence that Knox accused Lumumba of the murder of Meredith Kercher, and there is also prima facie evidence that this was a false accusation.

Your negativity towards Amanda's exoneration is unwelcome. Thanks for stopping by, LJ.

Just kidding ;). Actually, I've found your informed analysis and objectivity on this case hard to fault, and a real resource in understanding this case. If only certain others imagining themselves to be authorities on the details of the case could be as impartial.
The issue is now entirely one of whether the law was properly applied/followed in finding Knox guilty of criminal slander. As I've written before, I think there are two strong legal grounds for appeal to the Supreme Court. The first point is that the Lumumba slander charge was tried concurrent with the murder charge, in both the first trial and the appeal trial. I think this was an improper ruling (originally made by Massei). The decision to try the Lumumba slander charge concurrently was apparently based on the linking (or continuance): essentially, Massei appeared to rule that the murder and the accusation of Lumumba were all part of the same alleged criminal act by Knox. Clearly the Hellmann ruling has blown that assertion clean out of the water. I always believed that it was completely improper - on several levels - for the Lumumba slander charges to be tried in the midst of the murder trial. I believe that this point alone might well constitute solid grounds for the Supreme Court to set aside the appeal court's guilty verdict on the Lumumba slander charge.

The second point of law that I believe constitutes strong grounds for appeal is the mens rea issue. I think that it's entirely possible to prove improper police coercion; I also think that it's now possible to argue that if Knox was acquitted on the murder charges, she was in no position to knowingly make a false accusation against Lumumba (a point strengthened by the apparent fact that the police told her they had solid evidence of Lumumba's involvement in the murder). And I think that the curious lack of a video or audio recording of Knox's interrogation on the 5th/6th November may come back to play a part: I think that if the case gets referred back for retrial, a court might decide that it's reasonable to conclude that such a recording ought to exist (or to have existed), and that the apparent absence of such a recording should count against the police.

While I agree with all that, if what you say about the SC only considering points of law is correct, then how can they take into account the evidence of police coercion?
 
Can anyone point me to any research or information about the false negative rates of TMB? And has anyone studied what the probability is of a positive luminol hit and then a false negative for TMB?

I keep seeing the pro guilt folks arguing that blood comes up negative in a TMB test 50% of the time and can't imagine that is true?
 
You have to accept that Amanda is a proven liar.

Right from the start she..

1) Lied about Mez's door always being closed.

Oh, c'mon! Are we going to go through the door again? :)

At any rate here's Massei on it:

Massei PMF 31 said:
Filomena Romanelli had ascertained from a quick check of her room, even though (it was) in a complete mess with the windowpane broken, that nothing was missing. Nonetheless, what Amanda had told her about the front door being found open, about the presence of blood stains found in the bathroom used by Amanda and Meredith, and about the discovery of the two mobile phones, created a worrisome situation, all the more so because there was no news about Meredith and the door of her room appeared to be locked.

This last circumstance, downplayed by Amanda, who said that even when she went to the bathroom for a shower Meredith always locked the door to her room (see declarations of Marco Zaroli, page 180, hearing of February 6, 2009 and declarations of Luca Altieri, page 218, hearing of February 6, 2009), had alarmed Ms. Romanelli more. She said she was aware of only once, when she had returned to England and had been away for a few days, that Meredith had locked the door of her room. (This circumstance was confirmed by Laura Mezzetti, page 6, hearing of February 14, 2009).

It was in this context, full of anxiety and concern, that the decision was made by the four young people – Filomena Romanelli, Paola Grande, Luca Altieri, and Marco Zaroli - to break down the door of the room of Meredith Susanna Cara Kercher.

Nevertheless, with regard to this specific aspect – the locked door and the decision to break it down – some - to say the least - contradictory elements had emerged: Amanda, as has already been reported, had stated that Meredith always locked the door to her room and therefore it was normal that it was locked; Raffaele Sollecito had tried to break down the door with a kick, thus putting in action behaviour which contradicted the normality of the locked door claimed by Amanda; strangely, however, he had not persisted in his effort to break down the door, which had suffered only a scratch, and notwithstanding that he had not been able to offer genuine resistance to a greater and effective determination – as is evidenced by the fact that Luca Altieri, a little later, had been able to force it with a kick and a blow from his shoulder – he had not tried again to force the door.

Unfortunately the venue, (CNN In Sessions) where I often read Amanda's testimony and knew where things were, was erased for some reason. However as I recall, Amanda whose Italian was marginal at this point, testified she was simply trying to say it wasn't always unlocked. Whereas Filomena is trying to say Amanda meant something unlikely--that Meredith locked her door even when she took a shower. How do you suppose that works out with the key and all in her bathrobe and everything? :)

Why did Amanda correct Filomena when she said the door was never locked? Maybe just a quick comment to keep hope alive, that maybe just because the door was locked it didn't mean the worst had happened, something they were probably all thinking at the time judging by their actions.

What exactly were they trying to imply by all this? Amanda and Raffaele who'd called Filomena repeatedly, called Raffaele's sister, called Amanda's mom a few times, called Meredith's phones several times, and finally called the Carabinieri, were somehow trying to delay the discovery of the body? They were discovering it and sounding the alarm! When the Postal Police showed up they invited them in to investigate, showing them things that had worried them. However the mind of Mignini takes the fact that Raffaele failed to break down the door and Amanda misspoke or was misheard in a language she was learning as somehow 'proof' they were trying to avoid people discovering the body? How stupid is that?

In the context of the situation doesn't it seem more likely the quick comment was garbled somehow and misunderstood? Isn't relying on out of context words of dubious reliability more a statement of how warped Mignini's perception is and how weak the case he was trying to make was? He takes something like this and tries to pretend it 'proves' two things, that Amanda was trying to delay the discovery of the body, and then as 'proof' she's a 'liar' when I think the body of evidence actually suggests attempting to do that is suggestive of how disingenuous his contention was, and the desperate tactics he needed to employ.

Massei PMF 31 said:
2) Lied about Mez being a close friend of hers.

'Lied?' I don't recall an exact quote of that nature, but she might have said it. I do know she also pointed out in court that they'd only known each other a couple months, a statement of fact that ought to qualify that. There's never been anything to suggest Amanda had any reason to think her and Meredith weren't friends, and the evidence suggests Meredith reciprocated. If you look at the nature of the 'complaints' she apparently voiced to her English friends behind Amanda's back, they're the same sort of thing married couples or any roommates might say of another.

I don't think it was to the credit of those English girls or Meredith's memory to reveal such things, but it was elicited by tabloids and those girls, no more wiser in the ways of the world than Amanda and Raffaele, might well have felt pressured to say something, thus they did. It's pretty meaningless when you come down to it, they might have queried Meredith about Amanda and the evidence suggests most of the reports were good, but apparently Meredith gave them the 'lowdown' on Amanda's Seattle habit of conserving water by not flushing urine and her not realizing the brush needed to be used as she was unfamiliar with European water conservation efforts regarding toilets. It might have been even in mirth, we do not know. 'Well like all Yanks she doesn't know how to use a bathroom and I had to explain what the bidet was for' or something like that. It sounds like she also thought it odd Amanda kept items like condoms and the keychain vibrator in the bathroom as opposed to her own room, but so what?

All the witnesses testified under oath otherwise...THEY told the truth!


It's merely a difference between how one characterizes a relationship. Amanda from all accounts had a good relationship with Meredith, the English girls and the boys downstairs including her boyfriend confirmed that. I couldn't find Laura or Filomena's testimony on it which was stronger than this, but here's what some of Meredith's friends and acquaintances said:

Massei PMF 37 said:
Sophie Purton declared that she had met Meredith on September 2nd and that they had taken to seeing each other nearly every day. Meredith was rather carefree and happy. Her relationship with Amanda was good, even though some things that annoyed Meredith. In particular, she was annoyed by Amanda’s bathroom habits.


Giacomo Silenzi:

Massei PMF 39 said:
The relationship between Amanda and Meredith was normal and friendly. Now and again, they would have dinner and spend time all together. This happened either in the girls’ house or in theirs, downstairs. It happened that other guys took part in such gatherings, like Giorgio Cocciaretto, who used to visit the house.

Stefano Bonassi:

Massei PMF 40 said:
He knew the girls who lived upstairs, with whom he had become close friends, and they spent time together. He believed that there was a good relationship between the girls.
 
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What items were tested in Filomena's room that might have had The Real burglar or stager's DNA?



That is it, 5 whole items. If it was a burglary and the room ransacked and the clothes scattered everywhere, that would mean the burglar probably touched the clothes and other items scattered around. It would seem common sense to ask FR what items were not in the position she left them in and then test those items. We know the rock was handled by the burglar/stager, but no result on that one. We do know that Filomena indicated one item that had changed position and that was her computer. If the burglar that left the presumed blood substance on the broken window, they could have left a trace of blood or DNA on the computer. Of course, the crack team let Filomena in to take her computer, failed to take pictures of the glass on clothes, and as far as I can tell, failed to ask her a simple question of what is different from how you left it?

So only five samples tested in a room where no bloody struggle for life and death took place (two of which came from the floor with one of those having the DNA from three people) versus dozens of samples taken and tested from the murder room. Not surprising that no DNA or fingerprints from Rudy was found then.

And can Mach explain why no DNA from Raff was found in the bathroom where, according to him and his "expertise" in footprint analysis, he cleaned up and left a footprint of his in watery blood on a bathmat? Why only DNA from the two people who shared the bathroom?
 
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What is even more a mind-boggletation here is that they did not even test the rock until the defense insisted on it. I doubt Stefi really tried very hard to find anything, same with reps 198/199.

How was this rock stored and how long after the murder was it tested? As we saw with the bra clasp, poor storage allowed bacteria to destroy the DNA preventing further testing by C&V.
 
You have to accept that Amanda is a proven liar.

Right from the start she..

1) Lied about Mez's door always being closed.

Interesting. Another suspicious thing is that Amanda and Raff told conflicting accounts about seeing or not seeing the poo in the toilet. Smells fishy.
 
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