Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[Patrick1000]

I'd love to, really would.

I'll give you a dollar to say that to his face.

I'd love to, really would. I would dress these guys down like nobody's business. Imagine the look on the three of their faces when i asked them about the blue dot at K .2 and 5.6 east. And showed them how it matched exactly the coordinates of Tranquility Base given the inaccurate gridding of the LAM-2 map. Don't think Aldrin would punch me. I think he would freak out.

By the way, I believe the Aldrin punching Sibrel thing was stage.

Also, by the way, i am quite fit, Aldrin would not want to tangle with me.

 

[yodaluver28]

There is plenty of evidence for it. Collins says his eyes dark accommodate simply by way of pupilary dilatation. If that is the case they would dark adapt within fractions of a second, and stars would be readily seen simply by darkening the Command module cabin for a moment.

While pupils can dilate within fractions of a second, full adaptation to darkness can take 20 to 30 minutes depending on the individual. Some people adapt far more quickly while others adapt more slowly. Some people are only capable of adapting to a certain degree of darkness while others are incapable of adapting at all (night-blindness or nyctalopia). Being a test pilot, Collins probably had exceptionally adaptable eyesight but it still wouldn't happen in a fraction of a second.

 

[drewid]

The point is Aldrin is other than whom he claims to be.

In your opinion

 

[R.A.F.]

Called on what RAF?

Saying things that everyone agrees are objectively WRONG.

There is plenty of evidence for it.

In your Bizarro reality, but not in a world where thing like that can be tested.

Collins says his eyes dark accommodate simply by way of pupilary dilatation. If that is the case they would dark adapt within fractions of a second...

Dark adaptation in fractions of a second? That is an example of being objectively wrong.

If you state false things in order to make your point, then your point is worthless.

 

[Patrick1000]

Of course dark adaptation does not occur in a fraction of a second

Saying things that everyone agrees are objectively WRONG.



In your Bizarro reality, but not in a world where thing like that can be tested.



Dark adaptation in fractions of a second? That is an example of being objectively wrong.

If you state false things in order to make your point, then your point is worthless.

Of course dark adaptation does not occur in a fraction of a second. I did not claim that, Michael Collins did and does. He says the reason the astronauts cannot see stars is because they are dark adapted by virtue of pupilary constriction. And so of course you are so correct RAF, as the not so very bright not astronaut Michael Collins is so very wrong.

Full dark adaptation may take up to 40 minutes, and mostly involves regeneration of the potosensitive chemicals found in the retinae.

My point was/is, were Michael Collins correct in his assertion about dark adaptation being soley pupilary constriction dependent, then his eyes would dark adapt in a moment's time. And, given that, he would see stars off and on, all of the time, his eyes essentially instantlty adapting the moment a room, or a pretended space capsule got dark.

I actually have the USAF flight surgeons' manual on physiology from 1968. a very good treatment of dark adaptation in there. Quite modern. The astronauts/fighter pilots are all aware of this stuff. Especially a person like Armstrong who flew the X-15. they have strong practical knowledge of what really goes on with dark adaptation as their eys depend on it.

 

[TjW]

The LRRRs definitely had military applications. The reflectors were used at the very least in the measuring of ocean distances and the study of the earth moon system and gravity in general.

As such, the LRRRs played a direct role in American ICBM targeting calculations. With the LRRR data, the calculations improved.

Right there, Apollo is not "peaceful".

mil·i·tar·y/ˈmiləˌterē/
Adjective:
Of, relating to, or characteristic of soldiers or armed forces: "both leaders condemned the buildup of military activity".
Noun:
The armed forces of a country.

NASA is not military.

 

[Agatha]

I suspect that you are misquoting Collins, or misinterpreting what he said.

 

[JayUtah]

Of course dark adaptation does not occur in a fraction of a second. I did not claim that, Michael Collins did and does.

Who cares? He's not a physician nor ever claimed to be.

My point was/is, were Michael Collins correct in his assertion about dark adaptation being soley pupilary constriction dependent, then his eyes would dark adapt in a moment's time. And, given that, he would see stars off and on, all of the time...

But he isn't correct about it, so the issue is a tempest in a teapot.

This has got to be one of the weakest arguments ever, and it's one of the oldest going back to Bill Kaysing in 1975. He wasn't a doctor either. But it boils down to nothing more than hoax theorists claiming assertively that stars should or should not have been seen at various times, and reading into either the astronauts' statements or silence on the subject.

Do you really think anyone here puts any stock in what you ignorantly say should have been the case? Again, you're just begging the question. Your arguments amount to nothing more than, "It's fake because I say it's fake."

I actually have the USAF flight surgeons' manual on physiology from 1968. a very good treatment of dark adaptation in there. Quite modern.

You're not qualified to make that judgment.

 

[JayUtah]

To answer you question, I presume because they know nothing about...

That was not my question. My question has always been why suitably informed people disagree with you. You're changing my question into one that's easier for you to answer.

Or, perhaps, as it turns out, we'll all decide they are not so suitably infoprmed after all.

What if you're the one who isn't suitably informed? We've already seen how unsuitable your expertise is on a number of subjects. Are you really about to say that all the world's experts are wrong and you alone are right?

time will tell.

I think it already has.

 

[JayUtah]

I'd love to, really would.

Then tell us what you've done to contact any of the flight crews or ground controllers to present your findings. As I said, you called out Steven Bales by name. Have you tried to contact him? He's quite reachable.

Have you contacted any other Apollo historians to conduct a peer review on your work? Have you in fact done anything except post walls of text at web forums and ignore the responses?

I think he would freak out.

For decades the Apollo crews have endured heckling from misinformed and unqualified people. Do you really think you're any different? After having presented your materials at three different forums and having been banned from two of them for dishonest and ill-mannered behavior, and having not one single voice of agreement throughout, do you really think a veteran combat pilot and one of the most celebrated explorers of our age is going to quake in his boots when you wave maps at him?

Is there anything besides your own self-assurance that convinces you that you have any sort of credible case?

By the way, I believe the Aldrin punching Sibrel thing was stage.

I'm not the least surprised to hear you claim this, but I won't bother asking you for proof.

Also, by the way, i am quite fit, Aldrin would not want to tangle with me.

I think we've heard quite enough bravado from you. You will impress people more if you showed some critical thinking skills.

 

[Patrick1000]

What, is this supposed to be news?

While pupils can dilate within fractions of a second, full adaptation to darkness can take 20 to 30 minutes depending on the individual. Some people adapt far more quickly while others adapt more slowly. Some people are only capable of adapting to a certain degree of darkness while others are incapable of adapting at all (night-blindness or nyctalopia). Being a test pilot, Collins probably had exceptionally adaptable eyesight but it still wouldn't happen in a fraction of a second.

What, is this supposed to be news? With all do respect yodaluver, thanks for your comment, but I have hammered this point from the time I first heard the phony lines about not seeing stars and NASA's idiotic explanation of the same.

Dark adaptation occurs over a 500,000 to 1,000,000 fold range. 30 fold due to pupilary dilatation/constriction, occurring over fractions of a second, 2,3 fold due to neural adaptation occurring within the brain/CNS itself, also a phenomenon occuring over fractions of a second time, and the balance, some 5000 to 10,000 fold plus of the adaptation response due to regeneration/consumption of photosensitive chemicals in the retina. This later mechanism occurring over 30 to 40 minutes in the case of full dark adaptation.

Flight surgeons and the pilots even more themselves are intimately familiar with this complex mechanism. The pilots' lives depend on it.

Pilots have great practical knowledge of these matters, turning there heads in the dark to allow light to strike the most exquisitely dark adapted portions of the retinae in the periphery.

Michael Collins, Neil Armstrong and Aldrin lie their rumps off when they discuss dark adaptation in these simplistic terms. They know the score and know the tale about dark adaptation they tell is bull.

As RAF would say, "I CALLED THEM ON THEIR JIVE FROM THE GET GO". . BULL BULL BULL BULL BULL!!!!!

 

[Patrick1000]

I have contacted NASA's Apollo historians.

Then tell us what you've done to contact any of the flight crews or ground controllers to present your findings. As I said, you called out Steven Bales by name. Have you tried to contact him? He's quite reachable.

Have you contacted any other Apollo historians to conduct a peer review on your work? Have you in fact done anything except post walls of text at web forums and ignore the responses?



For decades the Apollo crews have endured heckling from misinformed and unqualified people. Do you really think you're any different? After having presented your materials at three different forums and having been banned from two of them for dishonest and ill-mannered behavior, and having not one single voice of agreement throughout, do you really think a veteran combat pilot and one of the most celebrated explorers of our age is going to quake in his boots when you wave maps at him?

Is there anything besides your own self-assurance that convinces you that you have any sort of credible case?



I'm not the least surprised to hear you claim this, but I won't bother asking you for proof.



I think we've heard quite enough bravado from you. You will impress people more if you showed some critical thinking skills.

I have contacted NASA's Apollo historians. They acknowledged the truth with regard to my point that real-time moon landing successful LRRR targeting information was NOT AND COULD NOT HAVE BEEN UTILIZED in the launch solution and Tranquility Base's coordinate determination as successful targeting was first accomplished 08/01/1969. Eric Jones himself, the editor and creator of the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal, offered to include my name and bio in NASA's Apollo Lunar Surface Journal, footnoting my correction to their/his error. I respectfully declined, indicating that I prefer to remain anonymous. I plan to contact NASA and the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal about my important findings dealing with the fraudulent LAM-2 map as well. I would assume they shall acknowledge the inaccurate gridding of the map just as they acknowledged the point about the LRRR targeting. It is a simple truth after all.

I have not contacted Steve Bales. I have communicated directly with other flight officers who worked the missions. Of those participating in the Apollo project, Joseph Wampler(astronomer) and Donald Beattie(Apollo Lunar Scientist) have given me permission to use their names and ANY information they have shared with me publicly, IF I SO CHOSE. I have shared only a small bit of Wampler here in the forum. I choose at this time to keep the details of my correspondences with them private. NONE of the flight officers with whom I have been in contact have given me permission to publicly share information, and so I of course have not, and I understand their reluctance entirely.

I could easily write to Bales, Aaron, Schiesser/Shyster and the others I believe to be involved, but this seems to be very much a waste of time. As I have mentioned previously, I wrote long hand written letters to Armstrong and Aldrin. I never heard from either, so I have given up on communicating directly with fraud participants in such a manner. If I thought they would actually communicate with me honestly, I would of course write to them. I imagine both Armstrong's and Aldrin's blood ran cold when they read my words, if in fact they ever got the mail, opened the letters and bothered to read them. Aldrin, quake in his boots? I don't know, he's used to lying about all this, but the medical issues and the map business are so objective, yes, he would be very very very scared of me, as would Collins, as would Armstrong. What are they going to say, "Hey doc, you don't know what you are talking about. We are the diarrhea experts."???????? Hardly, they'd realize they were in big big trouble.

I have received plenty of positive feedback regarding my work, research, especially as regards the coordinate confusion issue and the medical issues. Granted, seldom if ever is anything posted publicly in this forum in my support, but then again, that is the whole point in my posting here, taking you and the others on directly in this most hostile environment. My work grows and stands as an inspiration to others to do likewise. We are not afraid Jay, with all due respect. We know this Apollo thing is ridiculous, bogus, a charade.

Of course my case is credible. Think about it Jay, INFECTIOUS DIARRHEA FLOATING EVERYWHERE IN A SPACESHIP! DO YOU WANT TO BE BREATHING THAT IN!!!??? This is a lie, has to be. If it was true, someone would have seen to it that it never happened again. IT IS A FACT, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Gridding the Apollo 11 LAM-2 flown map as they did? ANOTHER ABSOLUTE POSITIVE LIE, AND PROOF OF FRAUD.

I am supremely confident. This is of course all fake, cannot be otherwise.

Bravado is bravado. I am hardly built that way. My work speaks for itself. It would seem the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal people agree. They thought enough of my analysis to offer to publish my name with accompanying bio as a contributor and corrector of their error. Is your name in there Jay?

 

[drewid]

What do I have to offer? "The pretend Columbia" was not even remotely sanitary, we know that for a fact from anayzing the fake Borman illness. We know Michael Collins' Apollo 11 simulated Missionn Flown LAM-2 map was intentionally gridded incorrectly to "hide" the Eagle's non-whereabouts. Given these facts, well elaborated upon earlier, we know Aldrin's mission was quite simply phony.

You have unqualified opinion and nothing else.

Arguments you have been presenting have been flawed and full of schoolboy errors. I listed 33 of them earlier, but I'm sure there are also other examples that I missed both from this forum and others.

You put your "expert" opinion up against others who are clearly qualified (the PhDs and MDs that signed the Apollo 11 medical report for instance, but can offer no personal qualifications as ballast for that.

 

[Multivac]

This post is so full of wrongness that it's difficult to know where to start, but this really jumped out at me.

When Apollo 12 gets hit by phony lightening and Alan Bean has a spaz attack telling everyone this is out and that is out and so forth and so on, John Aaron, the environmental/electrical systems specialist, saves the day, knows exactly what to do. No abort necessary. So John Aaron is a bad space apple. He makes a decision that is not a real decision. He does the same thing by the way with phony Apollo 13.

Why on Earth would you think that the lightning is phony? There were thousands of people watching the launch.

Why is it so amazing to you that the electrical systems specialist knows exactly how to resolve a problem caused by an electrical spike? The cape is well known for electrical storms so it is hardly surprising that the electrical system specialist had considered the possibilities of the saturn V being hit by lightning and working out what to do.

Alan Bean did not have a "spaz attack", he simply listed the systems that were not working, so that the experts on the ground could work out what the problem was. This is what engineers and test pilots are trained to do.

 

[R.A.F.]

Alan Bean did not have a "spaz attack"...

Of course not...highly trained test pilots don't "do" things like lose control...


But how else is Patrick going to ignore astronaut testimony, but by making those astronauts little more than "pawns" in the great conspiracy.[/b]


You should see his "potty jokes"...they are even worse.

 

[R.A.F.]

My work speaks for itself. It would seem the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal people agree.

So the ALSJ agrees with you that the Apollo missions were a hoax?

Is your name in there Jay?

You really don't want to "match credentials" with Jay...well, unless you really enjoy making a fool of yourself.

 

[Garrison]

Was watching the 'NASAs Greatest Missions' episode about Apollo 8 and they discussed Borman's bout of illness, the astronauts made it pretty clear they were going regardless of the 'biological contamination'.

 

[Patrick1000]

Sure I have made, make and will make mistakes with regard to my analysis

You have unqualified opinion and nothing else.

Arguments you have been presenting have been flawed and full of schoolboy errors. I listed 33 of them earlier, but I'm sure there are also other examples that I missed both from this forum and others.

You put your "expert" opinion up against others who are clearly qualified (the PhDs and MDs that signed the Apollo 11 medical report for instance, but can offer no personal qualifications as ballast for that.

Sure I have made, make and will make mistakes with regard to my analyses on the Apollo frauds, but in general, my criticisms are more than valid and very much on target.

Same question to you as I asked Jay drewid; WOULD YOU BE COMFORTABLE BREATHING IN BORMAN'S DIARRHEA? I DID NOT THINK SO, AND NEITHER WOULD NEIL ARMSTRONG FEEL VERY COMFORTABLE CHOKING ON THAT IMAGINARY GUNK.

As such, we can be certain that none of these people were sent to the moon, let alone landed and walked there. They simply did not have a place to hygienically go to the bathroom, 'bout as fundamental as it gets, a flat out vacuum sealed incontrovertable proof of Apollo fraudulence.

 

[JayUtah]

They acknowledged the truth with regard to my point that real-time moon landing successful LRRR targeting information was NOT AND COULD NOT HAVE BEEN UTILIZED in the launch solution.

We told you that repeatedly at Apollohoax, while you were claiming otherwise.

I respectfully declined, indicating that I prefer to remain anonymous.

A few pages ago you were crowing about having your name in the history books as the scholar who undid the Moon landings. Why the modesty now? You've consistently kept up a program of concealing your real identity and assuming a host of other identities. Could that be the reason you don't want your real identity a matter of record?

Other hoax authors and scholars seem to be able to use their real identities without undue harm. What makes you so special or so dangerous?

In any case, I've written to Eric. We'll see what he really thinks of you.

I would assume they shall acknowledge...

I wouldn't. What you were acknowledged for earlier was the point others tried for weeks to hammer into your head. You came to Apollohoax claiming that without super-accurate landing coordinates, the LM couldn't have made a successful rendezvous. It took much persuasion before you finally showed some hint of understanding, whereupon you ended up having to admit that the Moon landings were probably genuine.

I have not contacted Steve Bales.

Why not? Remember according to you, you're the most accomplished Apollo scholar ever. What do you have to fear from him? Don't you think it's a bit cowardly to accuse someone of lying when he's so accessible either for a response or a clarification? Even the most aggressive journalists try to contact their subjects for comment, even if it's just to be able to say, "So-and-so declined to comment for this story."

Would you mind if I contacted him on your behalf?

NONE of the flight officers with whom I have been in contact have given me permission to publicly share information, and so I of course have not, and I understand their reluctance entirely.

I don't believe you. The end result of this claim would be exactly the same as if you had not contacted them at all. "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you."

Send me a private message with their names, and I'll contact them too and verify that you've corresponded, and see if they'll agree to let me share their comments. I'll also obviously need the name you contacted them under.

If we give you the benefit of the doubt and agree that you have contacted Apollo flight controllers, do you tell them your goal is to prove that their work is fraudulent? When I talk to them and ask them if you've been honest with them about your intentions, what will I learn?

I could easily write to Bales, Aaron, Schiesser/Shyster and the others I believe to be involved, but this seems to be very much a waste of time.

No. You said yourself you would very much like to confront these people in person with your findings. Why is it all of a sudden a waste of time now that you discover how easy it is?

As I have mentioned previously, I wrote long hand written letters to Armstrong and Aldrin. I never heard from either...

Why did you expect to?

I imagine both Armstrong's and Aldrin's blood ran cold when they read my words...

Your letter was promptly thrown in the trash by their publicity offices after reading the first few sentences. Do you really think your claims have any sort of credibility?

Aldrin, quake in his boots? I don't know, he's used to lying about all this...

Oh, please. Make up your mind. On the one hand, the crews are so used to lying that they don't care what you say. On the other hand you're such a powerful investigator that their blood runs cold at the mere mention of your findings. It seems that whatever the astronauts' behavior may be, it plays right into your self-centered scenario.

...but the medical issues and the map business are so objective, yes...

No. As we've discussed at length, you have poorly informed expectations. They are not a useful standard of authenticity.

I have received plenty of positive feedback regarding my work...

Show us.

We are not afraid Jay, with all due respect.

Of course you're afraid. You scrupulously avoid any sort of accountability or disclosure that would identify you or that would result in criticism from which you cannot easily flee.

I am supremely confident. This is of course all fake, cannot be otherwise.

Nobody questions your confidence, however misplaced it may be. They question your knowledge and ability to reason. You still haven't gotten beyond setting up your uninformed opinion as the standard by which the facts are to be judged, then complaining when your case fails to convince.

Your only explanation for why all the suitably informed people disagree with you is that they must all actually be ignorant. Do you realize how arrogant and silly that sounds?

Is your name in there Jay?

Yes. I'm also supposed to provide a photo and a bio, but frankly I just haven't gotten around to it. But my real name is there.

My name is also in the New York Times, Metropole, Newsweek, "Mythbusters," and Science -- the most prestigious scientific journal in the English language -- all on the topic of Apollo history and hoaxed Moon landings.

The difference between you and me is that I'm not afraid to attach my real identity to my work.

 

[drewid]

Was watching the 'NASAs Greatest Missions' episode about Apollo 8 and they discussed Borman's bout of illness, the astronauts made it pretty clear they were going regardless of the 'biological contamination'.

'Biological contamination' was hardly likely to stop a test pilot in that or any other era. I remember reading that test pilots in the 60's only had a 56% (IIRC) , chance of surviving a 20 year career, Navy test pilots were even worse off, though I can't remember the stats for that. Colleagues died during the course of everyday work. Upset stomach stop a mission? Not likely.