Merged So there was melted steel

[Dave Rogers]

Let me use my psychic powers and take a guess at the most recent post by our JREFF Truther friend. I have to guess because...


And here is my reply...

All the research scientists in the work and their silly textbooks are wrong...wrong, wrong, wrong. Instead, I will cite an obscure Truther scientist who may or may have any meaningful qualification. His (or her) work is gobbled up like marshmallows by the Truther community. On the other hand, the scientific community outside this crack team of experts has ignored this work completely.

Your dismal and embarrassing failure to guess the content of Miragememories' post is a classic example of the biased and agenda-driven nature of debunking on this forum. As everyone who dwells on his every pearl of wisdom is fully aware, he actually cited two obscure truther scientists.

Dave

 

[GlennB]

That point has been addressed before Sunstealer but you keep pretending otherwise.

Physicist Steven Jones, Ph.D][/b]
"...The aluminum occurs in plates that are about 40 nano-meters across. I have no idea how to make those. This is high tech material and it is embedded in a carbon-rich matrix."

MM

Elemental aluminium has a cubic crystal structure. The plates observed are not elemental aluminium.

 

[Scott Sommers]

Your dismal and embarrassing failure to guess the content of MirageMemories' post is a classic example of the biased and agenda-driven nature of debunking on this forum. As everyone who dwells on his every pearl of wisdom is fully aware, he actually cited two obscure truther scientists.

Dave

I am going to recommend to Kevin Barrett that he place your name #1 on his list of people to be disappeared when 9/11 Truth has their way.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Elemental aluminium has a cubic crystal structure. The plates observed are not elemental aluminium.

Aluminium oxide, on the other hand, is widely used as a paint pigment, in the form of thin flakes very similar to those in the Harrit et al samples. And replacing aluminium with aluminium oxide would make thermite remarkably ineffective...

Dave

 

[Miragememories]

"We have solid evidence of nano-thermite. A substance that should not exist anywhere in the WTC debris yet has been found in every sample of WTC dust."

"And there are hundreds of papers about respiratory problems of 9/11 emergency workers. I couldn't find anything about the effects of inhaled thermite...and I looked for it...really...not one paper."

Well you might start by reading this paper published in Environmental Health Perspectives;
http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info:doi/10.1289/ehp.0901159
Case Report: Lung Disease in World Trade Center Responders Exposed to Dust and Smoke: Carbon Nanotubes Found in the Lungs of World Trade Center Patients and Dust Samples

You might like to follow that up with the findings of Dr. Niel Harrit which he presented at the 9/11 Hearings in Toronto this year;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNPeMvsSbl4&feature=related
TheTorontoHearings Harrit-091011 0247PM_Dr. Niels Harrit-Incendiary-Explosive Residue in the WTC Dust.
Around 00:54:01 he addresses the above paper.

The thing you must keep in mind Scott, is that like many things in life, say athlete drug testing for example, if you don't test for it, you won't find it.

MM

 

[Oystein]

MM, I don't think I'll have the time or mind to reply to your earlier post where you replied to me, but I'll try to remember to revisit that later. Got only time for a quickie:

That point has been addressed before Sunstealer but you keep pretending otherwise.

"...just to give you a reference on the size, these particles that are in the red layer are thousands of times smaller than the width of a human hair. So these are very sophisticated particles of very sophisticated materials. Not materials that we would expect to find in the demolition debris of a building. In order to get that kind of consistency with shape and size and to be that small, these really are sophisticated materials. And probably only developed in a laboratory. They maybe processed outside a laboratory but they are developed in a laboratory."

"...The aluminum occurs in plates that are about 40 nano-meters across. I have no idea how to make those. This is high tech material and it is embedded in a carbon-rich matrix."

MM

Apart from your obvious and rather pathetic attempt at convincing people by waving academic titles, Jeff's statement contains its own debunking.

You bolded some of the interesting words yourself: "probably", "maybe" and "I have no idea".

The good thing is: We know what's going on, and we know why Jeff doesn't have the slightest idea how to turn elemental aluminium into "plates that are about 40 nano-meters across". It's because you can't, and there is no elemental aluminium. There is aluminium silicate. And I know how to make "plates that are about 40 nano-meters across" from aluminum silicate: Just go to a kaolinite mine and scrape a little off the rock. They appear naturally. That's how.

And this answers why Jeff is not sure about if these were made in a lab or manufacturing site, because neither is right. The kaolinite made by nature million years ago and was simply mined, ground and mixed with the other pigment and epoxy.

So the biggest and most impressive PhD doesn't help you if you just have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Miragememories]

"MM, I don't think I'll have the time or mind to reply to your earlier post where you replied to me..."

That is about what I expected.

As they say, "par for the course."

MM

 

[Oystein]

Aluminium oxide, on the other hand, is widely used as a paint pigment, in the form of thin flakes very similar to those in the Harrit et al samples. And replacing aluminium with aluminium oxide would make thermite remarkably ineffective...

Dave

In this case, the XEDS twin peaks of Al and Si, along with the potomicrographs, tell us we are looking at aluminium silicate. Equally ineffective when used as an Al substitute in thermite. Aluminium silicate is widely used in paint for a variety of purposes, such as affecting hue and viscosity. In fact, we know that the builders of the Twin Towers specified that the primer that was painted on the floor joists must contain aluminium silicate. We know that this paint was red, and also contained iron oxide. We know that this paint also contained small amounts of strontium chromate. We know that Harrit found small amounts of Cr and Sr in the red layers. We know that that paint was mostly painted on steel qualities that contain about 1% of manganes. We know that Harrit found traces of Mn in the gray layer, which otherwise was basically oxidized iron - the stuff that the surface of structural steel consists of. We know from Harrit that the volume of the red layer was mostly organic matrix. We know that the joist primer was 71.5% organic matrix (epoxy).

It all falls into place.

In short, we can be damned sure that the red-gray chips are some red standard primer, very likely from the floor joists.

 

[GlennB]

The thing you must keep in mind Scott, is that like many things in life, say athlete drug testing for example, if you don't test for it, you won't find it.

MM

Shame that Jones, Harrit and all didn't test for thermitic compounds in their samples then, eh?

What your PhD heroes did was the equivalent of saying "Hey, that guy is running surprisingly fast. We'll bust him as a dope-cheat"

 

[Dave Rogers]

The thing you must keep in mind Scott, is that like many things in life, say athlete drug testing for example, if you don't test for it, you won't find it.

Unlike testing for thermite, where apparently you decide in advance that you've found it, then just redefine "it" to mean whatever you actually found.

Dave

 

[Oystein]

MM, I don't think I'll have the time or mind to reply to your earlier post where you replied to me, ...

That is about what I expected.

As they say, "par for the course."

MM

MM, you dishonestly cut out the rest of the sentence:

...but I'll try to remember to revisit that later.

How low. You reached a new bottom of quote mining dishonesty.


Much worse though, you implicitly accuse me of being dishonest about my personal situation, and possibly cowardice.

You couldn't possibly be more wrong.
You have a private message. Now you know.


I hope you feel deeply ashamed.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Why is thermite being discussed again? Not even Jones's sampes showed any signs that it was there. This is already established.

There's a difference between researchers claiming something is proven by their study and that something actually being proven by their study. The Jones/Harrit data contradicts the conclusions. We've discussed this already.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

That point has been addressed before Sunstealer but you keep pretending otherwise.
MM

 

[LSSBB]

The thing you must keep in mind Scott, is that like many things in life, say athlete drug testing for example, if you don't test for it, you won't find it.

MM

You don't need to test for a drug that there's no way the athlete could have used.

 

[NoahFence]

If truthers were accident reconstructers, they'd be investigating if blizzard like conditions were responsible for a car hitting a tree in Las Vegas in August.

 

[TJM]

If truthers were accident reconstructers, they'd be investigating if blizzard like conditions were responsible for a car hitting a tree in Las Vegas in August.

I suppose you believe the OCT that Arab tourists who live in hotels, armed with credit cards were actually able to deliberately drive that car into the tree? There's reports that the driver couldn't even parallel park and yet he was somehow given a license? Really?!? Even if that's true, how do you explain how this tree fell at the speed of gravity into it's own trunk? Then there's the wide spread leaf field that suggests that an explosive demolition occurred. Read Dr. Jones paper, he's discovered the presence of explosive nano-termite larvae in the leaf field, which suggests that some other agent was added to slow down the birth rate. I'm sure you're well aware that these bugs are so complicated, they're bred only in top secret government labs. Everyone knows this.

 

[jaydeehess]

Tell me where they say extrapolated? Why should I conclude anything other then what they wrote? It was there writing they could have said those temperatures were extrapolated.

;

I merely pointed out that there is no way to DIRECTLY measure an underground temperature from a helicopter.
I also noted that the max surface temp of 1341F would corresspond to the 2800F quoted by the ASSE.
So the underground temp was approx only double the temp measured at the surface.
Rather than fight anything said to you how about actually commenting on something tangible.
How about answering the questions posed about how molten steel is indicative of another substance and unigue to the cause of the collapses of the towers.

Weren't you the one that told me we couldn't know the temperature at the core based on what we know at the WTC. In fact post 852 of this thread this is what you said (you had given an example of when you could extrapolate) "In the case of the WTC you know none of this, you don't know the distance from surface to fire, the distance travelled etc." So now it can be done? LOL I mean really come on.

Ummm, you first dispute the idea that the 2800F figure is an extrapolation from the surface temp and now you wish to berate me because I said that if one could establish a range for other factors such as the depth of and insulation value of the overburden material it can be done?

Yes, it can be done and apparently whomever the ASSE was using as reference did such a thing.
However quoting the ASSE who is in turn using these numbers is hardly a proper way to go about understanding the fire temps below the surface.

The ASSE article was NOT a technical article, the fire temps are mentioned simply in passing in this non-technical article. If you wish to use the 2800 F figure then its up to YOU to find out where the ASSE was getting that figure and then to investigate HOW it was arrived at.

The fact that you cannot even envision why this is the proper way to go about quoting figures underlines your lack of technical education and experience.

I also noted that the number 2800 is just over twice that of the max surface temp of 1341 F which hilites the fact that your calculation of 9800 F must be severely off base, as explained many times.

I look forward to catching up in this thread.

 

[beachnut]

... You might like to follow that up with the findings of Dr. Niel Harrit which he presented at the 9/11 Hearings in Toronto this year;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNPeMvsSbl4&feature=related
TheTorontoHearings Harrit-091011 0247PM_Dr. Niels Harrit-Incendiary-Explosive Residue in the WTC Dust.
Around 00:54:01 he addresses the above paper.

...

Harrit is an idiot, he shows a car that did burn, claims it did not burn, claims it was the just a lot of heat. Morons, presenting lies to bigger morons. A bunch of nuts.

They say the iron spheres were proof of thermite because they find iron at 5 or 6 percent in the dust. Fe is 5.63 %, occurring in nature, right in my yard. My back yard is a thermite conspiracy. They are all nuts. This is why their claims have no earned a Pulitzer, they are nuts.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Harrit is a no-planer. I think that's all that needs to be said about him, since to be a no-planer is to not only be a loon, but also to be complete blind ton forensics.

 

[DGM]

Harrit is a no-planer.

Wait.............What? I've never heard this before.