Could the very high rate of mental illness in Europe be related to religion decline?

[dafydd]

I haven't made any personal attacks. The relation of mental illness and belief in Christ has been challenged, and the best that the moderators of JREF can contribute is a calumnious duo of falsehood. I find your powers of interpretation on the wane.

We have the lowest wanefall on the net.

 

[Akhenaten]

We have the lowest wanefall on the net.

 

[Kopji]

I haven't made any personal attacks. The relation of mental illness and belief in Christ has been challenged, and the best that the moderators of JREF can contribute is a calumnious duo of falsehood. I find your powers of interpretation on the wane.

There is nothing really to challenge.

What specific beliefs about Jesus are claimed to be mental health enhancing? Is mental health better in fundamentalism or liberalism? Do we see any trends within Christianity itself, or is the claim about that a broad affirmation of belief that is adequate?

Muslims believe in Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit. what is the dividing line for mental health benefit?

Christianity is being claimed good for mental health, so what virtue is unique to Christianity?

It is simply that we define good mental health as including the insane notion that an invisible deity can communicate with us and punish the wicked and reward the good. Sending tsunamis and earthquakes at its bidding. Putting men in charge of women. Making some dirt more glorious than other dirt.

Healthy healthy healthy.

 

[TimCallahan]

I haven't made any personal attacks. The relation of mental illness and belief in Christ has been challenged, and the best that the moderators of JREF can contribute is a calumnious duo of falsehood. I find your powers of interpretation on the wane.

Again, when we look closely at the study cited in the OP, we see that dementias, such as Alzheimer's and strokes were included as a percentage of the mental illness in Europe. Once these entirely physical ailments are removed, the study gives pretty much the same results as earlier studies, showing that Europe and America have about the same level of mental illness (i.e., depression, anxiety, substance abuse, etc.).

Again, the rates of mental illness for more religious European countries, such as Spain and Italy, were comparable to those of Germany, a much less religious nation.

Again, though Canada and the U.S. have comparable levels of church attendance, Canada's rate of mental illness is less than half that of the U.S. Subsequent to my posting this statistic, other posters noted that many more Canadians than U.S. citizens had a negative view of religion and Christianity.

Again, the evidence is in: There is no relation, positive or negative, between belief or disbelief in Jesus Christ and levels of mental illness. This fact, in and of itself, is not an argument for or against Christianity. I'm simply saying, without any rancor, that the assertion of the OP does not hold up when the evidence is examined.

Your response?

 

[DOC]

{DOC}Allow me to point out that in your OP you asserted that Europe's rate of mental illness was greater than that of the U.S.

Actually, I never asserted this, although it could be true, nobody knows for sure. My main point was Europe's rate is very high.

and gave as the reason the decline of religion in Europe.

I think it is a good possibility.

Central to your assertion was the higher rate of mental illness in Europe than in the U.S.

Actually I don't believe I was the one who brought in the US.

Now you're saying that the U.S. is just as bad as Europe.

No, I'm not, you are.

That would seem to totally undermine your argument...

Not really for a reason I talked about in post 413.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7603410#post7603410

 

[MRC_Hans]

Actually, I never asserted this, although it could be true, nobody knows for sure. My main point was Europe's rate is very high.



Actually I don't believe I was the one who brought in the US.

Your argument will not make any sense unless you assume that the rate of mental illness is higher in Europe than in a comparable region (which can really only be the US). If religion is a factor, then there should be a difference between Europe and (certain parts of) the USA.

I think it is a good possibility.

(That the high level of mental illness is due to lack of religion)

And on what do you base that assumption?

Do you claim that this effect depends only on Christian religion (and if yes, which particular brand), or will any religion do?

Hans

ETA: This has been touched before, but I can't find any clear replies from DOC (may be a generic problem for DOC )

 

[DOC]

Your argument will not make any sense unless you assume that the rate of mental illness is higher in Europe than in a comparable region (which can really only be the US). If religion is a factor, then there should be a difference between Europe and (certain parts of) the USA

Not necessarily, and I gave 1 reason why in post 413.

{There is a good chance}that the high level of mental illness is due to lack of religion {in Europe}--

And on what do you base that assumption?

In these threads and from general reading people seem to think that Europeans are smarter and have their act together more than Americans. If that is so why the very high mental illness. If they are so smart and sophisticated it would seem its mental illness should be some of the lowest. And mental illness seems to be on the rise is the feeling I get from reading the article in the OP -- just as indifference to religion has been on the rise in Europe (and in the US for that matter).

 

[joobz]

Not necessarily, and I gave 1 reason why in post 413.

You didn't give a reason. You gave illogical conjecture. If your reason was "valid" you would also be forced to conclude that having multiple children is a sin as it very often leads towards diseases for the mother (e.g., Vaginal prolapse).

In these threads and from general reading people seem to think that Europeans are smarter and have their act together more than Americans. If that is so why the very high mental illness.

DOC, "very high" is a superlative. Without context and comparison, it is meaningless. A very high literacy rate 1000 years ago would have been 50%. Now a days that would be considered a very low literacy rate.
As such, when you use "very high", rational people assume you are comparing it to other nations.

Secondly, How can you claim that 40% is very high when we all know that the list include such a wide range of diseases (including apnea, insomnia,...)?

If they are so smart and sophisticated it would seem its mental illness should be some of the lowest.

Well this statement exposes a lot about yourself.
Why are you so antagonistic towards Europeans?

And mental illness seems to be on the rise is the feeling I get from reading the article in the OP -- just as indifference to religion has been on the rise in Europe (and in the US for that matter).

Well that's the problem. You are drawing a conclusion that isn't supported by the article. the evidence doesn't show mental illness being on the rise.

 

[Akhenaten]

{DOC}Allow me to point out that in your OP you asserted that Europe's rate of mental illness was greater than that of the U.S.

Actually, I never asserted this, although it could be true, nobody knows for sure. My main point was Europe's rate is very high.

Compared to what?

and gave as the reason the decline of religion in Europe.

I think it is a good possibility.

Based on what?

Central to your assertion was the higher rate of mental illness in Europe than in the U.S.

Actually I don't believe I was the one who brought in the US.

Does this somehow prevent you from answering the question?

Now you're saying that the U.S. is just as bad as Europe.

No, I'm not, you are.

Now's your chance then, DOC. How do the rates compare?

Keep in mind that your OP is even more utterly meaningless than usual without being able to make this comparison.

That would seem to totally undermine your argument...

Not really for a reason I talked about in post 413.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7603410#post7603410

That mish-mash of special pleading, baseless assertions, and uninformed speculation explains nothing. It's drivel.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Not necessarily, and I gave 1 reason why in post 413.

I disagree with your reason. I don't think your OP makes sense unless you imply that there is a correlation between religion and mental illness when comparing two comparable cultures.

In these threads and from general reading people seem to think that Europeans are smarter and have their act together more than Americans.

Of course we are smarter!

Seriously, I think that depends on which Americans you compare to which Europeans. However, having a huge percentage of Creationists in the US doe speak volumes to me, albeit probably not to you.

If that is so why the very high mental illness. If they are so smart and sophisticated it would seem its mental illness should be some of the lowest.

Why so? Is the sophisticated mind less prone to mental illness? I see no reason to assume so.

And mental illness seems to be on the rise is the feeling I get from reading the article in the OP -- just as indifference to religion has been on the rise in Europe (and in the US for that matter).

So you do draw a parallel. So my question stands: Do you consider just any religion a defence against mental illness or just some specific? (This important if one is to evaluate a possible correlation.)



Hans

 

[Akhenaten]

Your argument will not make any sense unless you assume that the rate of mental illness is higher in Europe than in a comparable region (which can really only be the US). If religion is a factor, then there should be a difference between Europe and (certain parts of) the USA

Not necessarily, and I gave 1 reason why in post 413.

How long are you going to pretend that nobody has refuted that garbage?

{There is a good chance}that the high level of mental illness is due to lack of religion {in Europe}--

And on what do you base that assumption?

In these threads and from general reading people seem to think that Europeans are smarter and have their act together more than Americans.

You just made it up, in other words.

If that is so why the very high mental illness.

Compared to what?

If they are so smart and sophisticated it would seem its mental illness should be some of the lowest.

You haven't yet shown that they aren't. In fact you seem to be quite emphatic about not having made a comparison between Europe and the US.

And mental illness seems to be on the rise is the feeling I get from reading the article in the OP -- just as indifference to religion has been on the rise in Europe (and in the US for that matter).

We're supposed to base our understanding of the situation on your feelings about it?

​

 

[kmortis]

Is that Wilbur I see peeking over the horizon?

 

[Akhenaten]



 

[kmortis]

WE HAVE WILBUR SIGN!!!!!

So, from my in depth reading of each and every post (why is my scroll wheel smoking like that?), can I summarize?

No? Too long?

Sum up?

The OP posited that mental illness (including neurological disorders like Alzheimer's as well as more "Software" related issues like schizophrenia) is on the rise in Europe (never explictly saying in comparison to what) and this is due to the majority of Europeans sluffing off the shackles of religion/hearlessly turning their back upon the One True God™. Everyone else has addressed the major and minor points with actual data.

Yup, it's a Wilbur sign.

 

[zooterkin]

I think it is a good possibility.

Assertion without evidence.

 

[Mojo]

Actually, I never asserted this, although it could be true, nobody knows for sure. My main point was Europe's rate is very high.

Yoer point is unsupported, because you haven't provided any source which indicates that Europe's rate is particularly high when compared with anywhere else.

On the contrary, we had sources cited in the early pages of the thread which showed that, when similar methods of assessment are used, the USA has a higher rate than European countries.

 

[TimCallahan]

Actually, I never asserted this [that Europe's rate of mental illness was greater than that of the U.S.], although it could be true, nobody knows for sure. My main point was Europe's rate is very high.
. . . (snip)

Specifically, the study you cited in the OP, upon which you based your basic assertion, said that the rate of mental illness in Europe, over all, was 38% of the population. This is greater than the 27% of the U.S. population. If you didn't say directly that Europe's rate was higher than that of the U.S., you certainly strongly implied it.

I've also pointed out to you that Canada's rate of church attendance is comparable to that of the U.S. Yet, their rate of mental illness is a bit less than half the U.S. rate. Other posters pointed out that, while levels of church attendance are comparable, most Canadians are far less religious than pare people on the U.S. This directly contradicts the idea that a decline in religion results in higher levels of mental illness.

 

[iknownothing]

My main point was Europe's rate is very high.

High compared to what standard? What do you think the rate should be?

If they are so smart and sophisticated it would seem its mental illness should be some of the lowest.

Why?

And mental illness seems to be on the rise is the feeling I get from reading the article in the OP

Have you noticed the people suggesting that what's rising is actually the understanding and diagnosis, rather than mental illness itself. (With the exception of problems such as stroke and dementia, which are explained by an aging population.)

 

[Roadtoad]

I'm still catching up on links and all, but one thing is clear:

There's nothing here. Again.

The links are interesting, but it's obvious that DOC didn't bother to look at this at all.

 

[AdMan]

The links are interesting, but it's obvious that DOC didn't bother to look at this at all.

Nope, and in his latest posts it's painfully obvious he's trying to wriggle his way out of the hole he'd dug himself into.