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Could the very high rate of mental illness in Europe be related to religion decline?

Funny how the people asking if we are being punished for sin always feel sin is defined as something their religion prohibits. Strange how you never hear a Christian saying "Oh man, we are sinning against Shiva!" or a Muslim saying, "Oh man, we have angered the Buddha!!"
 
Funny how the people asking if we are being punished for sin always feel sin is defined as something their religion prohibits. Strange how you never hear a Christian saying "Oh man, we are sinning against Shiva!" or a Muslim saying, "Oh man, we have angered the Buddha!!"


Apart from DOC, Ive never heard of anyone describing "the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors".
 
"Very high" compared to what, exactly? You don't have any baseline rate of mental illness to compare them to, so what makes you think they're at all unusual?

Yeah, I was wondering that. What's DOC's example of a religious country with a low rate of mental illness compared to similar countries that aren't religious? What's the ideal we're supposedly striving for?

Apart from DOC, Ive never heard of anyone describing "the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors".

Covetousness and failing to love your neighbor? I think it would fit.

Honestly, I get the point of what DOC's saying. A lot of things that successful religions preach would lead to good mental and physical health if they're properly cherry-picked, because religious leaders need reasonably healthy, happy followers. So if they're going to enforce a system that causes poor health, insanity and the dissolution of society, it won't last long.

So if a person followed exactly what a particular church preached--let's take a random Christian protestant denomination--they probably would turn out pretty healthy and happy. Or if not happy, at least benign. Love your neighbor, don't be greedy (balance of recreation and work, healthy weight, no substance abuse), don't have random sex (i.e. don't spread/contract sexual disease or create babies you won't care for), obey the law (so no jail time and consequent stress), don't worry about the morrow (less stress), don't suffer from guilt, help those in need, etc.

The problem is that it's easy for a happy, well adjusted person to do those things, but not so easy for someone suffering from OCD, depression, etc., and the religion doesn't give any practical instructions how to switch from being one to the other, it just says do it or else.

I think that's the main reason religion doesn't have much correlation with good mental health. A lot of the advice is good, but there's no help in following it, except maybe with the broadest, vaguest sort of peer pressure and advice to pray.

And that's not even getting into all the silliness about grooming, clothing, rituals, etc., that religions tack on to the things that might actually be practical, and which they're just as apt to condemn people for disobeying as the more practical stuff.
 
Can we just get the thread merged with the 'Natural Disasters could be a punishment from God' thread? Maybe get it renamed, 'Every bad thing that ever happens is probably deserved because you might have been mean to God'?

Thanks for the laugh!
Hey.
That satellite that's falling to Earth even as I write.
If it falls in a place rife with depression, that will be proof of something, won't it?
 
Yeah, I was wondering that. What's DOC's example of a religious country with a low rate of mental illness compared to similar countries that aren't religious? What's the ideal we're supposedly striving for?
There isn't one. That will be his proof that all the world is sinful. clearly, if it wasn't sinful, than the mental health illness rate would be 0%.

It's fun to make up crap instead of making a rational argument.
 
Apart from DOC, Ive never heard of anyone describing "the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors".

I can think of one other person...... Jesus.
Seriously, It's one of the few things DOC has said that I agree with.
Jesus was a communist, not capitalist.
 
I can think of one other person...... Jesus.
Seriously, It's one of the few things DOC has said that I agree with.
Jesus was a communist, not capitalist.

He was a prudent capitalist

(To the tune of 'John Brown's Body)

Jesus puts his money in the Cardiff Savings Bank
Jesus puts his money in the Cardiff Savings Bank
Jesus puts his money in the Cardiff Savings Bank
Jesus saves,Jesus saves.

A popular song in Wales when I was a lad.
 
David Nutt, a neuropsychopharmacology expert at Imperial College London who was not involved in this study, agreed.

"If you can get in early you may be able to change the trajectory of the illness so that it isn't inevitable that people go into disability," he said. "If we really want not to be left with this huge reservoir of mental and brain illness for the next few centuries, then we ought to be investing more now."


David Nutt is an intelligent and articulate man and I'm leaning towards him either responding somewhat tongue in cheek or being misquoted entirely.

That aside, clearly 38% of the population of Europe are not laid up with mental illness at any one time. However, as they are including Alzheimer's and other ailments associated with ageing in their study it is not improbable that 38% of the population will encounter something debilitating at some point in their life. This is quite different from half the population currently under psychiatric care.

It is also fair to say that in previous eras people would be described as having black moods or melancholic now they are depressed. Ailments that were always there are now give a diagnosis. I'm impressed though if DOC can demonstrate that churches are Alzheimer free zones.

One last thought - what if they are classing obsessive religious observance as a mental illness ;)
 
If we assume the info you mention above is correct, the bottom line is that the mental illness rates in both areas is very high. The mental illness rates in the US could also be caused to a certain extant by sin but a "different" sin than the Europeans.. The US claims to be more Godly but the US seems to be more materialistic than Europe. The sin of materialism and the love of money (root of all evil) can be the fuel that causes such things as overwork to attain more goods and to keep up with the Jones. Overwork can lead to depression and other mental problems. Also the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors can lead to human suffering. A great example of this is the movie "Roger and Me" by Michael Moore. This movie shows how the policy of profit over all else practically destroyed the community of Flynt Michigan. This action of practically destroying a town can lead to mental problems.

Thus while the US seems to be more godly on the surface (by such things as a higher church attendance) it is actually less godly in certain areas than Europe. But then again Europe is less godly in certain areas, mainly in its growing lack of recognition and indifference to God.

Tell me, ruling out aging related conditions, what is the rate of mental illness in Sweden?
 
Tell me, ruling out aging related conditions, what is the rate of mental illness in Sweden?

A quick google gave me some rough numbers:
Psychiatric diseases make up about 25% of serious ilnesses in Sweden (55% amongst the age group of 45 years and below). (Source: Socialstyrelsen).
The point prevalence of psychiatric disease is stated to be somewhere around 13% of the poulation, with 2% exhibiting psychotic symptoms and 0.5% being diagnosed as schizophrenic.
AFAIK that's based on an interview study that I can't find, and the numbers for psychosis seems rather high.
If I find the time for it, I'll check with the hospital library for more exact data later today.
 
Can we just get the thread merged with the 'Natural Disasters could be a punishment from God' thread? Maybe get it renamed, 'Every bad thing that ever happens is probably deserved because you might have been mean to God'?

If god did exist it would be the other way round.
 
If we assume the info you mention above is correct, the bottom line is that the mental illness rates in both areas is very high. The mental illness rates in the US could also be caused to a certain extant by sin but a "different" sin than the Europeans.. The US claims to be more Godly but the US seems to be more materialistic than Europe. The sin of materialism and the love of money (root of all evil) can be the fuel that causes such things as overwork to attain more goods and to keep up with the Jones. Overwork can lead to depression and other mental problems. Also the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors can lead to human suffering. A great example of this is the movie "Roger and Me" by Michael Moore. This movie shows how the policy of profit over all else practically destroyed the community of Flynt Michigan. This action of practically destroying a town can lead to mental problems.
Thus while the US seems to be more godly on the surface (by such things as a higher church attendance) it is actually less godly in certain areas than Europe. But then again Europe is less godly in certain areas, mainly in its growing lack of recognition and indifference to God.

DOC:

I haven't responded to the post above for a few days because I recently had some password difficulties, which Darat solved for me after a bit of missed communication.

Allow me to point out that in your OP you asserted that Europe's rate of mental illness was greater than that of the U.S. and gave as the reason the decline of religion in Europe. Central to your assertion was the higher rate of mental illness in Europe than in the U.S. Now you're saying that the U.S. is just as bad as Europe. That would seem to totally undermine your argument.

So, you now switch, it seems, to an argument that ungodliness in general is the cause for high rates of mental illness in both Europe and the U.S. While I completely agree with your arguments in the hilited area, I must point out two major flaws in your new argument:

1) The depression and stress generated by the auto makers in Detroit abandoning their work force for the sake of profit is not echoed in Europe, where, despite the decline in religion (or, arguably because of it, considering religion-based opposition to such programs), welfare democracies have limited profits and provided safety nets for displaced workers. Yet, for all the increased support, their rate of mental illness are comparable to that of the U.S.

2) Though church attendance rates in the U.S. and Canada are comparable, Canada's rate of mental illness is less than half that of the U.S. I could argue that Canada, unlike the U.S., has had a decent medical care system. This, along with other factors - less stress from being in the midst of world politics, greater ethnic homogeneity, lower population - could be the reasons Canada has a considerably lower rate of mental illness than the U.S. However, I would also have to acknowledge that many European countries share many of these attributes (with the exception of lower population pressure), yet have mental illness rates comparable to that of the U.S. How, for example, could we account for the high rate of depression in France?

One thing I could not argue is that the lower rate of mental illness in Canada is the result of greater godliness. The Canadians are certainly as secular as we in the U.S. are. Unless you can demonstrate greater piety among Canadians, your argument fails here, just as it does regarding Europe.

It would appear, then, that rates of mental illness vary from country to country based on an idiosyncratic mix of factors. These may include the presence or absence of social safety nets, varying levels of ethnic and cultural homogeneity, varying levels of population pressure, political conditions and individual differences in national character. There is no indication, whatsoever that rates of mental illness are tied to the presence or absence of religious practice and conviction. Ergo, in light of the evidence, your argument fails utterly, Q.E.D.
 
One thing I could not argue is that the lower rate of mental illness in Canada is the result of greater godliness. The Canadians are certainly as secular as we in the U.S. are. Unless you can demonstrate greater piety among Canadians, your argument fails here, just as it does regarding Europe.


This recent poll also undermines DOC's argument:

Half of Canadians think religion more harmful than good, poll finds

It's no secret fewer Canadians attend church today than 20 years ago, but what may be surprising is almost half of Canadians believe religion does more harm than good, according to the results of a survey conducted by Ipsos Reid.
 

That could be it. This reminds me of one difference between Los Angeles and Detroit. When the Lakers bombed out of the playoffs a number of years ago, it was no big deal in L.A. Life went on in its generally laid-back way.

However, one year when either their football or basketball team (I don't recall which, I'm not a sports fan) won the championship, the denizens of Detroit celebrated by rioting, including torching quite a few cars. I'd hate to see what happens there should they be nosed out.

While the post about the soccer finals was, no doubt, tongue in cheek, I do recall Scottish soccer hooligans rioting over one of the games, a la Detroit. This does strengthen the assertion that much of the difference between mental illness rates from one country to the next may be based on idiosyncratic national differences.
 
While the post about the soccer finals was, no doubt, tongue in cheek, I do recall Scottish soccer hooligans rioting over one of the games, a la Detroit. This does strengthen the assertion that much of the difference between mental illness rates from one country to the next may be based on idiosyncratic national differences.
Likewise, the same applies to sects

Hell hath no fury like Glasgow when Celtic and Rangers fans collide

http://www.slate.com/id/2289101/
...match between the two clubs had coincided with 229 arrests. Statistics compiled by Scottish law enforcement suggest that rates of violent crime and domestic abuse more than double whenever Rangers and Celtic play

...

Leaders of the Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church issued a joint statement pleading with players not to "disgrace the good name of Scotland."

...

The problem is that the rivalry reflects social tensions that no one has done more to foster than the social institutions that are now blaming soccer for the country's ills. The Old Firm, as Celtic and Rangers are collectively known, preserves an ancient sectarian hatred that is baroquely entwined through all levels of Scottish society. For politicians and priests to cry J'accuse at the clubs while ignoring all the ways in which their own predecessors have stoked that same conflict is to treat a symptom as a disease.
 

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