• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
bri1 said:
Moodstream at IIP just posted this (thanks Moodstream):

from - the Daily Star Sunday, 11/09/2011

Patrick said: “One thing I could never understand is that Amanda has always said she was given a rough time by the police but I – the black Third World African – was named as the one who killed Meredith and they never gave me any problems.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/vie...redith-murder-says-she-is-fantastic-actress-/


____________________________________________________


From the Daily Mail 11/25/2007

At 6.30am on Tuesday, November 6, the bell to his fourth-floor flat in the town buzzed insistently and a woman's voice outside demanded he opened the door. He had barely had time to do so when the woman, assisted by, Patrick estimates, 15 to 20 others, barged their way in.
"They were wearing normal clothes and carrying guns," he says. "I thought it must be some sort of armed gang about to kill me. I was terrified.
"They hit me over the head and yelled 'dirty black'. Then they put handcuffs on me and shoved me out of the door, as Aleksandra pulled Davide away, screaming."
He was greeted outside by a convoy of seven police cars, sirens blazing, and driven to Perugia's police station, where he was subjected to a ten-hour interrogation.
"I was questioned by five men and women, some of whom punched and kicked me," he claims. "They forced me on my knees against the wall and said I should be in America where I would be given the electric chair for my crime. All they kept saying was, 'You did it, you did it.'
"I didn't know what I'd 'done'. I was scared and humiliated. Then, after a couple of hours one of them suggested they show me a picture of 'the dead girl' to get me to confess.
"It might sound naive, but it was only then that I made the connection between Meredith's death and my arrest. Stunned, I said, 'You think I killed Meredith?'
"They said, 'Oh, so now you've remembered' and told me that if I confessed I'd only get half the 30-year sentence." It wasn't until 5.30pm that still handcuffed and unfed he was shown the evidence against him...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Lumumba-reveals-framed-Merediths-murder.html
Click to expand...

Very strange indeed. I can't of course say I know for sure that Lumumba is lying now and really said those things to The Daily Mail and that the blogger who reported that he had said the same things just before the calunnia verdict is truthful, but it definitely needs to be looked in to.

Was Lumumba mistreated by the police or not? That is surely an important question.
 
Fine said:
Now that Amanda has "escaped," Patrick's attorney, Carlo Pacelli, is now asking the Knox/Mellas clan---and the United States of America--- whether Amanda will pay the court ordered damages to Patrick (oh, and Pacelli's legal fees). HERE.

///
Click to expand...

Ding Dong the witch has escapatated.

I feel really bad for Patrick and so does Pacelli. I suggest Pacelli waive his legal fees.
 
DarkStar2011 said:
Well, Knox and Sollecito initiated their appeal, and Mignini tried to get their sentences raised to life plus a term in solitary confinement, so I'd guess "no" is the answer.
Click to expand...

Ah, but in that case the prosecution also appealed the verdict. If the prosecution hadn't appealed their sentences couldn't have been increased by the court. What I'm curious about is whether there are any nuances to Rudy's situation, seeing as how his appeal would fall outside the mandatory process.

ETA: I know this is nitpicky, but to state things more precisely: if Rudy appeals on the grounds of conflicting findings of fact, is the case also open to appeal by the prosecution?
 
Last edited:
Machiavelli said:
The problem for me is he did not say "we apply the 530.1", neither.
(moreover he only made declarations consistent with 530.2 speaking about "sufficience" and "contradiction" of evidence)
I need to know what is mentioned, not what is not mentioned.
To me, he has not taken a position. He must say that in a positive phrasing, he must say what he wants and what he decides, not what he does not want and doed not decide. To me, until now Hellmann has just been contradictory in his declaration and appears to me as not taking any position.
Click to expand...

Yes, he did not say clearly, but it was not asked clearly, either.
It was a comparison to another case in which there had been an acqittal on insufficient evidence.
Although not the insufficiency was the point of the question, Hellmann's answer shows that even if he had not decided between 530.1 and 530.2, he clearly does not have in mind that his ruling will be based on 530.2.

So this answer convinced me that 530.1 is more likely.

Whatever it will be, however, this case has gone.
The C&V report has sunk it.
Even if the report were successfully excluded procedurally and partially refuted in merit, I don't think that the next judge would ignore it in his weighting of the DNA evidence.
Even if, hypothetically, Massei were given the same job again, he would not necessarily rule the same way.

The prosecution did not do a good job in handling the evidence they had.
But the basic problem is that their theory that the three together committed the murder is wrong.

Alone or with others, Rudy is the chief murderer and Raffaele likely was not there at the time of the murder.
 
Last edited:
charlatan said:
If only it were as benign as you suggest. Remember how some people were arguing that Rudy's trial should influence the proceedings in Hellmann's court? It's actually the exact opposite. Assuming the supreme court upholds Hellmann's ruling, any conflicting findings of fact between Rudy's appeal and the recently concluded trial will serve as grounds for appeal by Rudy's lawyers. Mignini's crazed conspiracy theories have opened an avenue of appeal that should have been denied to the real killer. I find this outrageous no matter how limited Rudy's chances may be on appeal.
Click to expand...

I don't think we have to worry about Rudy Guede getting off. I saw Valter Biscotti quoted the other day that he was thinking about it, but the problem is Rudy might end up with a much longer sentence. I suspect that's a pretty high probability, there's nothing wrong with the DNA evidence from the first sweep and that's all they need with the other evidence, in fact there's enough of that they probably don't need the DNA. There was so much evidence against Rudy they tried to sluff some of it off on Raffaele and Amanda.
 
bri1 said:
Moodstream at IIP just posted this (thanks Moodstream):

from - the Daily Star Sunday, 11/09/2011

Patrick said: “One thing I could never understand is that Amanda has always said she was given a rough time by the police but I – the black Third World African – was named as the one who killed Meredith and they never gave me any problems.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/vie...redith-murder-says-she-is-fantastic-actress-/


____________________________________________________


From the Daily Mail 11/25/2007

At 6.30am on Tuesday, November 6, the bell to his fourth-floor flat in the town buzzed insistently and a woman's voice outside demanded he opened the door. He had barely had time to do so when the woman, assisted by, Patrick estimates, 15 to 20 others, barged their way in.
"They were wearing normal clothes and carrying guns," he says. "I thought it must be some sort of armed gang about to kill me. I was terrified.
"They hit me over the head and yelled 'dirty black'. Then they put handcuffs on me and shoved me out of the door, as Aleksandra pulled Davide away, screaming."
He was greeted outside by a convoy of seven police cars, sirens blazing, and driven to Perugia's police station, where he was subjected to a ten-hour interrogation.
"I was questioned by five men and women, some of whom punched and kicked me," he claims. "They forced me on my knees against the wall and said I should be in America where I would be given the electric chair for my crime. All they kept saying was, 'You did it, you did it.'
"I didn't know what I'd 'done'. I was scared and humiliated. Then, after a couple of hours one of them suggested they show me a picture of 'the dead girl' to get me to confess.
"It might sound naive, but it was only then that I made the connection between Meredith's death and my arrest. Stunned, I said, 'You think I killed Meredith?'
"They said, 'Oh, so now you've remembered' and told me that if I confessed I'd only get half the 30-year sentence." It wasn't until 5.30pm that still handcuffed and unfed he was shown the evidence against him...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Lumumba-reveals-framed-Merediths-murder.html
Click to expand...

Patrick is obviously traumatized by the lack of compensation.
 
Paninaro said:
Very strange indeed. I can't of course say I know for sure that Lumumba is lying now and really said those things to The Daily Mail and that the blogger who reported that he had said the same things just before the calunnia verdict is truthful, but it definitely needs to be looked in to.

Was Lumumba mistreated by the police or not? That is surely an important question.
Click to expand...

When Amanda appeals the Calunnia conviction, and seeing as the prosecution believes that the Daily Mail is admissable in court, I think they should enter the DM as evidence.
This would:
a) Prove that Lumumba is, himself a liar (in that he was either lying then, or he's lying now) and poof! there goes his moral high ground.
Considering how much Patrick was paid for the interview, use it as proof that Lumumba is himself willing to slander for his own gain, implying that's also what he's been doing to Amanda.
b) Use it as evidence that the police were using illegal and borderline illegal tactics to try and intimidate and coerce suspects in this case, thus undermining the notion that Amanda's statements were voluntarily given.
c) Use the police's 'dirty black' comment as evidence that the police were the racists ones, thus making it more likely that the police already suspected Patrick in part because of racism.
 
bolint said:
Alone or with others, Rudy is the chief murderer and Raffaele likely was not there at the time of the murder.
Click to expand...

Amanda was definitely there hovering above the crime scene in her magic canoe. I know this because 'Mandy' is a stripper name and all the strippers I've ever met have no souls. :D
 
I wonder how Patrick will feel when he comes to the realization that he has just blown his chance at an ECHR award. I suggest he just wait patiently next to his mailbox for Amanda's check. I am sure it will be coming.......any day now.
 
Grinder said:
<snip>Although at this time Dempsey appears to be correct in supporting not guilty, she is a horrible reporter if that's what she alleges to be.<snip>
Click to expand...

Candace Dempsey didn't set out to report on this case. She is a journalist, but the case just happened to occur around the same time she was starting a personal blog on the Seattle P-I's website. The blog was named "Italian Woman at the Table," which many people interpreted as a reference to cooking -- that's why so many guilters have referred to her as a "food writer." Candace can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the name was a reference to the Cezanne painting, Young Italian Woman at a Table, and I think Candace's intention was to share an Italian American's take on traveling and eating in Italy.

Candace never got a chance to focus on that subject matter because she chose to write about the murder on November 10th, four days after the arrests. That blog, in my opinion, is an excellent example of news reporting because the author maintains a sympathetic but open mind about the events that have been reported up to that point. A month later, Candace was already questioning the prosecutor's charges as well as the media presentation of the case. Her blog became one of the first, if not the first, forums for others interested in finding out more about the case.

Although I haven't read her book, I have gathered that most readers found it to be the most objective representation of the case so far. Again, I don't think her blog was intended to be news reporting per se -- like Frank Sfarzo's, it contained a great deal of insightful analysis about the case, which enabled readers to reflect more thoughtfully than did straight news reports. It's also a great source for documents that weren't available elsewhere.
 
Mary_H said:
Candace Dempsey didn't set out to report on this case. She is a journalist, but the case just happened to occur around the same time she was starting a personal blog on the Seattle P-I's website. The blog was named "Italian Woman at the Table," which many people interpreted as a reference to cooking -- that's why so many guilters have referred to her as a "food writer." Candace can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the name was a reference to the Cezanne painting, Young Italian Woman at a Table, and I think Candace's intention was to share an Italian American's take on traveling and eating in Italy.

Candace never got a chance to focus on that subject matter because she chose to write about the murder on November 10th, four days after the arrests. That blog, in my opinion, is an excellent example of news reporting because the author maintains a sympathetic but open mind about the events that have been reported up to that point. A month later, Candace was already questioning the prosecutor's charges as well as the media presentation of the case. Her blog became one of the first, if not the first, forums for others interested in finding out more about the case.

Although I haven't read her book, I have gathered that most readers found it to be the most objective representation of the case so far. Again, I don't think her blog was intended to be news reporting per se -- like Frank Sfarzo's, it contained a great deal of insightful analysis about the case, which enabled readers to reflect more thoughtfully than did straight news reports. It's also a great source for documents that weren't available elsewhere.
Click to expand...

She published a short piece on 12/27/2007 called Trial By Trollarazzi which still resonates with the discussion today.
 
Poppy1016 said:
I will try again with this question. Is it normal practice to bring officials from Rome late at night and use half of the police force to " interview" someone who is not a suspect? Also, is it normal and legal to refuse legal representation? AK&RS were denied not just that night but long afterwards. Is it normal and legal to tap the phones of people who are not suspects, and also their families?
Click to expand...

All I can give you is an informative article I have cited many times before, which contains an interview with experts in the Italian legal system. It doesn't address the issue of whether it is normal to bring officials from Rome late at night to conduct an interrogation, but the information we have collected since the arrests leads us to believe that it is not normal. I think Steve Moore may have written about that, maybe in his articles on Injustice in Perugia.

According to one of the experts in the article, it is not legal to refuse legal representation, and in spite of Machiavelli's circuitous protests to the contrary, the Supreme Court did rule that Amanda was denied her legal right to legal representation. Judging from what the legal expert says, it was also illegal for the police not to videotape the interrogations. I don't know why they were never penalized for that.

I believe it is legal to tap phones in Italy.
 
Mary_H said:
Candace Dempsey didn't set out to report on this case. She is a journalist, but the case just happened to occur around the same time she was starting a personal blog on the Seattle P-I's website. The blog was named "Italian Woman at the Table," which many people interpreted as a reference to cooking -- that's why so many guilters have referred to her as a "food writer."
Click to expand...

At that time Candace self-described herself as an "award-winning food and travel writer".
Nowadays she indeed seems to have dropped the "food" from her titles.
 
Machiavelli said:
Cleaning shifts complaints and open discussions with Knox for not abiding to cleaning shifts are reported mainly by the Italian roommates (they were anyway focused on Knox and involved Meredith).
Shopie Purton recalled that Meredith had defined Amanda "not clean" , and also that she felt unconfortable by that she brought strange men into the house.
Amy Frost reported - now here I recall maybe wrongly as it appears it was not exactly a tampon - she reported that Meredith had found the toilet paper smeared with menstrual blood, and in that occasion she had to talk to Amanda and told her to be more careful. Frost also reported that Amanda used to leave the toilet sullied with feces and asked her a suggestion for a polite way to talk about it with Knox.
Click to expand...

And STILL we receive nary a citation on these claims.
 
Malfie Henpox said:
You said that by and large the supporters of innocence were well educated and even intellectual, and only a minority of those opposing it were.

I just wanted verification of this claim. No argument.
Click to expand...

I can't verify this claim. It's only my opinion.
 
madrigal said:
One presumes that as with Lumumbo, Filomena & Laura have concrete alibi's for the time of the murder thus counting them out as suspects.

Are there any witnesses to provide an alibi for Amanda and Raff?
Click to expand...

Yes. Jovana Popovic witnessed Amanda at Raffaele's apartment at about 8:40 p.m. Meredith's stomach contents tell us she was murdered within a half hour after that. It's possible Amanda and Raffaele ran over to the cottage and joined Rudy in murdering Meredith during that time frame, but neither the prosecutors nor the judge from the first trial suggested that as a potential scenario. If they ever do, they will still have to explain why there is no evidence of Amanda and/or Raffaele at the scene of the crime.

Filomena's alibi is no more concrete than Amanda's; in fact, it is less so because Jovana Popovic didn't talk to her
 
madrigal said:
One presumes that as with Lumumbo, Filomena & Laura have concrete alibi's for the time of the murder thus counting them out as suspects.

Are there any witnesses to provide an alibi for Amanda and Raff?
Click to expand...


No, there aren't any.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom