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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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How's this for a particularly unpleasant stance to be taking - made all the more nasty because it's cloaked in the language of "pity" for Knox:




It doesn't take a genius to understand the subtext of this post: "I am glad when I imagine that Amanda is suffering far more now than when she was in prison. My disgust at her release is more than mitigated by my new belief that she is destined to live a tortured and damaged life out in the world".

I have to say that I find this particular individual (the one who wrote this post) particularly pernicious, unpleasant and obnoxious. She presents a very thin facade of equanimity, compassion and care. But behind the facade lurks a nasty, vindictive, misanthropic human being. I wish that she would get some help with her passive-aggressive proselytising. But I suspect that she's so far gone that she doesn't even realise who she is any more.

This is a hard one to call LJ, but I don't agree with your characterization of this poster. If this poster believed Amanda was innocent or had substantial doubt about guilt I would be more in agreement with you. The comments by this poster are still wrong, in my opinion, but this is one of Machiavelli's less wrong things, also my opinion. This poster seems to me to be honest, open, and sincere about her feelings, wrong though they may be.
 
Wait, what?

How is Mignini in any different position after his first instance conviction than Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito were after their initial conviction in the court of first instance, when you personally were all too willing - and continue to be all too willing - to say every unproven thing you can think of to say about them? By your "reasoning" (and I use the term loosely here), woudn't that make yours a dirty campaign? A dirty campaign made of falsehoods? An instrument to take advantage in order to insinuate lies? (whatever that means)

See, you can't have it both ways, Machiavelli. You can't pick and choose, and only apply your "reasoning" to the one scenario that you're trying to promote (even though it has no evidence to support it).

...

I think you have dropped the discussion whent you acused me of double standard in my addressing Maori as a liar, and claiming a dirty campaign on Comodi and others on the same point.

Though, I have demonstrated that I am right on the point as the point can be proven, wherease statments about "obfuscating reality" are unproven and illogical speculations.

The point is very simple: only one among us is right. These points of view cannot be both true; only one can be right. One has arguments rooted in certainity or precise topics, which could be unfold, the other has not. For example I have read Mignini's conviction motivation report and the Supreme Court ruling concerning Knox's statements, others have not. Just examples concerning sources. Also the value of our judgement is differently rooted: I know Maori is lying, and have no negative judgement even less prejudice about Maori nor I think he is doing anything bad in lying. Instead you think Comodi and Mignini lie without any direct evidence, and this stems from a negative prejudice on them that you already have.

Another example: back some pages you asserted that Amanda and Raffaele were "prematurely arrested" and you made an argument. I pointed out that your statement is false. Knox and Solelcito were not arrested prematurely, but after serious evidence against them emerged. As by the law. You did not correct this point. But this point is proven, and things are made of details. You are asserting a false detail, not me. So on on many other points, like for example the wrong statement of Wikipedia that it was found that Knox's human rights were violated, or the false assertion that the Supreme Court declared the statements inadmissible. I did not prove that definitive sentences can be used in an unrelated trial as pieces of circumstantial evidence, but I encourage you to research yourself as it is easilly provable. However, you asserted that it was false without basis, without verifyng.

There is no double standard: the one who can prove is right. And only one can be right if the arguments are so polarized. All things that I say about Amanda and Sollecito can be proven, and if there is anything about the case that is my speculation , I try to make it clear. The fact that she is a liar and a felony criminal is also officially proven by now. In fact, for everything else that is not argumented i my post is stated clearly as being my conclusion from a previous analysis.

What I think is, you work in your rational analysis on the basis of many wrong asumptions. We can also may have different principles about legitimacy and justice, about how things have to be proven and tho whom. But I suggest you to verify many things that you give for granted and instead can be verified by yourself too.
 
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It's not bothering me.
What is bothering me is that the Knox/Mellas family, including Amanda Knox is being harrased. What is bothering me is that Meredith's Kercher memory is being falsely used as the excuse of existance of PMF, while it's nothing more than a hate site.

OK. Thanks.

What makes this case so special do you think? Do you think that it's become an allegory for the way Americans see themselves? Serious question. Don't shoot me down.
 
OK. Thanks.

What makes this case so special do you think? Do you think that it's become an allegory for the way Americans see themselves? Serious question. Don't shoot me down.

What?
No, not really. To be quite honest, I don't care for the way Americans see themselves. It has nothing to do with the case and I can assure you that people that were heavily involved in following the case and people that know the facts of this case, don't think about being American, Italian, British...All they care about is justice for Meredith, Amanda and Raffaele. Guede got what he deserved, or actually he got less than that.
 
I think you have dropped the discussion whent you acused me of double standard in my addressing Maori as a liar, and claiming a dirty campaign on Comodi and others on the same point.

Though, I have demonstrated that I am right on the point as the point can be proven, wherease statments about "obfuscating reality" are unproven and illogical speculations.

The point is very simple: only one among us is right. These points of view cannot be both true; only one can be right. One has arguments rooted in certainity or precise topics, which could be unfold, the other has not. For example I have read Mignini's conviction motivation report and the Supreme Court ruling concerning Knox's statements, others have not. Just examples concerning sources. Also the value of our judgement is differently rooted: I know Maori is lying, and have no negative judgement even less prejudice about Maori nor I think he is doing anything bad in lying. Instead you think Comodi and Mignini lie without any direct evidence, and this stems from a negative prejudice on them that you already have.

Another example: back some pages you asserted that Amanda and Raffaele were "prematurely arrested" and you made an argument. I pointed out that your statement is false. Knox and Solelcito were not arrested prematurely, but after serious evidence against them emerged. As by the law. You did not correct this point. But this point is proven, and things are made of details. You are asserting a false detail, not me. So on on many other points, like for example the wrong statement of Wikipedia that it was found that Knox's human rights were violated, or the false assertion that the Supreme Court declared the statements inadmissible. I did not prove that definitive sentences can be used in an unrelated trial as pieces of circumstantial evidence, but I encourage you to research yourself as it is easilly provable. However, you asserted that it was false without basis, without verifyng.

There is no double standard: the one who can prove is right. And only one can be right if the arguments are so polarized. All things that I say about Amanda and Sollecito can be proven, and if there is anything about the case that is my speculation , I try to make it clear. The fact that she is a liar and a felony criminal is also officially proven by now. In fact, for everything else that is not argumented i my post is stated clearly as being my conclusion from a previous analysis.

What I think is, you work in your rational analysis on the basis of many wrong asumptions. We can also may have different principles about legitimacy and justice, about how things have to be proven and tho whom. But I suggest you to verify many things that you give for granted and instead can be verified by yourself too.

I am curious, Machiavelli. do you think Hellmann should be suing people who are claiming he made a decision based on politics or PR Machines?
 
You say this and

and yet you blindly refuse to accept any form of criticism of police and prosecutors in connection with the Meredith Kercher case and defend them in every detail?

Take away the word "blindly". And take away the word "any".
I don't accept your form of "criticism". Stationg that someone is a criminal involved in a conspiracy against all evidence of any sort is not "any form of criticism".

Do you really think that lying in itself is a criminal offence worth three years in prison?

In certain conditions the law thinks so.
But in any case what we think may be a secondary matter. A fact is that the person is a liar of a certain kind, and we may point it out in accord to our view.

We're discussing a murder here, something very serious. Plain lying surely is nothing in comparison?

In my personal opinion - but also for many aspects in the law, and from the point of view of victims like the Kerchers - lying on certain circumstances is a very serious matter and makes the person dangerous to society.
 
Meredith's statements and opinons about her were recalled by witnesses in court, and also reported from her written e-mails.

Did the Italian girls claim that they did most of the cleaning and not Knox or Kercher or did they just say Knox? Was there something more than the occasional not flushing and the sharing of cleaning duties involved here?
 
What?
No, not really. To be quite honest, I don't care for the way Americans see themselves. It has nothing to do with the case and I can assure you that people that were heavily involved in following the case and people that know the facts of this case, don't think about being American, Italian, British...All they care about is justice for Meredith, Amanda and Raffaele. Guede got what he deserved, or actually he got less than that.

But this kind of thing happens all the time. I just wonder what makes it so special. I'd be interested to see if there is a geographical divide on opinions of guilt.

Being British, I would definitely say that their is a stronger feeling of guilt there. And the whole affair has been compared to Americans in general. I don't subscribe to this view, but I do wonder if the opposite opinion is, in general, held by the states.

What I mean is this:

UK: American girl kills poor British girl. Money thrown at case. Tramples all over local justice.

US: Innocent angel held captive by evil foreigners. But we'll get her back.

See what I'm saying? Am I right?
 
I understand what you are saying, but my point from the very beginning is that the police believed Amanda Knox to be a suspect at least as early as the moment when she made the oral declarations that the police then typed into a note and persuaded Knox to sign. If they hadn't believed her comments to be incriminating, then they would not have typed them and persuaded her to sign.

Therefore, she had a right to counsel and a right to remain silent that attached before she was handed the typed statement to sign.

But your point has no corresponding reference in tha law. What the police believe - suspect is she is not telling the truth, and she is covering someone - is not something that legally prevents the police from interogating her as a witness and collect statements from her.
And about the point of "signature", this makes no sense. Minutes of police questionings are no official documents. They are internale administrative acts. They do not require to be signed by the suspect.
Moreover, the police is not allowed by the law to not verbalize statements; they simply may not decide to "not type", they have to report whatever the person has said. They can only decide, then, to stop their questioning, to not go further, and call a magistrate if the verbalization of questioning already contains evidence that had shifted the legal status of the person to that of a formal suspect. This happens only if the police have collected material which is evidence usable by a magistrate.
 
Beacuse the irrational accusations are still there, the impossible scenarios are still believeable for those on the guilt side, the idiotic remarks are still being written and the harrasment of Amanda Knox (and to the lesser degree of Sollecito) didn't stop. Not to mention that they now accuse the judge of being corrupted or scared and suggesting that there is a conspiracy theory and it's the only reason why they were freed.

They still have hope that the Supreme Court will send them back to jail, but as most well known and educated people suggested, it's close to impossible.
Simple as that.

But why does this bother you?

Malfie, there is something appallingly wrong when 2 innocent people can be demonised, imprisoned and wrongly convicted in the way Amanda and Raffaele were, with apparent impunity for those responsible. It's not put right simply by letting the innocents out while leaving ignorant people the freedom to suggest that they got off lightly, or to suggest that they caused their own misfortune through lack of honesty. The answer to your question is that the system that led to the injustice still exists, and there is an unreal perception among far too many people that there was no injustice in the first place.

What is needed is a root-and-branch examination of what led to this travesty, and reform of the system that allowed it - as well as real consequences for all of the sordid individuals responsible. That's not going to happen while there are people making excuses for them.

If the acquittals are now seen as the end of the story, then the same thing is going to happen again. Of course, anyone with any awareness of injustices will know that it was nothing unique - indeed, people commenting on this case have also drawn attention to the Sabrina Misseri/Sarah Scazzi case, which is still going on.
 
Did the Italian girls claim that they did most of the cleaning and not Knox or Kercher or did they just say Knox? Was there something more than the occasional not flushing and the sharing of cleaning duties involved here?

The testimonies are focused on the relation between Meredith and Knox. Evidence reports a series of complaints from Meredith in tha latest weeks about Knox's behaviour.
 
Malfie, there is something appallingly wrong when 2 innocent people can be demonised, imprisoned and wrongly convicted in the way Amanda and Raffaele were, with apparent impunity for those responsible. It's not put right simply by letting the innocents out while leaving ignorant people the freedom to suggest that they got off lightly, or to suggest that they caused their own misfortune through lack of honesty. The answer to your question is that the system that led to the injustice still exists, and there is an unreal perception among far too many people that there was no injustice in the first place.

What is needed is a root-and-branch examination of what led to this travesty, and reform of the system that allowed it - as well as real consequences for all of the sordid individuals responsible. That's not going to happen while there are people making excuses for them.

If the acquittals are now seen as the end of the story, then the same thing is going to happen again. Of course, anyone with any awareness of injustices will know that it was nothing unique - indeed, people commenting on this case have also drawn attention to the Sabrina Misseri/Sarah Scazzi case, which is still going on.

OK, cheers. That's an excellent point.

Despite not understanding why this case is so unbelievably massive, if it helps turn people on to the many, many injustices in the world, it has to be a good thing.

Let's hope that happens!
 
The testimonies are focused on the relation between Meredith and Knox. Evidence reports a series of complaints from Meredith in tha latest weeks about Knox's behaviour.

I was asking about the reference made to Amanda being not clean and your claim along those lines.

Machiavelli said:
Time wasting questions: we know for certain Amanda was actually perceived by Meredith as being not very clean.
 
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Malfie, there is something appallingly wrong when 2 innocent people can be demonised, imprisoned and wrongly convicted in the way Amanda and Raffaele were, with apparent impunity for those responsible. It's not put right simply by letting the innocents out while leaving ignorant people the freedom to suggest that they got off lightly, or to suggest that they caused their own misfortune through lack of honesty. The answer to your question is that the system that led to the injustice still exists, and there is an unreal perception among far too many people that there was no injustice in the first place.

It's not right that people have freedom of speech?
 
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