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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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"We" Is Me And My Homies

Couple of things:

Who's "we"? Everyone that has responded to you here has disagreed with you. If you have an opinion, and there's No co-signer with you, I suggest you use first person, singular.

Second, I was the poster that asked you about your day job, not Abaddon. If you do not want people to know what you do, then say that. I would strongly suggest that your credibility, such as it was, has been badly tattered, nay, utterly destroyed, because you made a simple declarative statement as to your profession and then said it was a brush off or metaphor or some such.

Third, it is difficult enough to wade through all of the text you throw up; even if you think that the program was a fake (it wasn't), please use people's correct names. Quite frankly, one email in my company with that type of name calling, even if you were correct on facts, would have you out the door. There is no call for it, it makes you look like a fool, and even if you had a scintilla of a case, it is hopelessly polluted.

Fourth, and I will be persistent on this: why do you want so badly for the Apollo program to have been a fake?

Yo Fresh! WAZ Up?!!!

"We" is me and my home boys SUSpilot, the other guys and gals that believe Commander Borman wears "Pretends" and not real poopie pants. 'Course it don't refer to you. You are a good guy I am sure, but not a Homie in that special sense. So consider yourself excluded Fresh.

I know you asked the day job question. I'm payin' attention Fresh. But then abaddon responded to my "claim" of being a root canal specialist with;

"Wait, what?

You were formerly a doctor, and/or a maths graduate from alternately harvard or berkely or whatever, but now you are a dentist?"

Don't read my text then SUSpilot, I don't care if you do or do not. No big deal to me either way. So you don't want to wade through it? Then don't. Do something else. I don't care.

It is fake, Apollo is phony. In the special sense to which I refer that is. Apollo is a real space program SUSpilot. They just are not landing men. They landed other junk to keep your parents from having to go Cyrillic. I am not stressing on it all that much Fresh.
 
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Sure Redtail

Still wrong Patrick, & like pretty much everything else, if you'd go back & check your work you'd see why.

Sure Redtail, like you really know about the 1968/1969 influenza pandemic, or anything as regards influenza for that matter.

Nice try, but you should try saying something substantive.
 
My Claim Is Very Substantive


My Claims Is Very Substantive.

Apollo was/is a military program that sought to and succeeded in instrumenting the moon for earth/space surveillance, reconnaissance and communication. Apollo program military equipment was also used in an ultimate sense to not only "defensively" detect Soviet ICBM activity, but was employed in an offensive capacity to aid in the targeting of US ICBMs upon the soil of Russia, China and the land of other nations viewed as hostile, or potentially so. .
 
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My Claims Is Very Substantive.

Apollo was/is a military program that sought to and succeeded in instrumenting the moon for earth/space surveillance, reconnaissance and communication. Apollo program military equipment was also used in an ultimate sense to not only "defensively" detect Soviet ICBM activity, but was employed in an offensive capacity to aid in the targeting of US ICBMs upon the soil of Russia, China and the land of other nations viewed as hostile, or potentially so. .

Now all you need is the proof to your claims.

Good luck with that - it's only taken 1,145 posts for you to get to the point.

Pop Quiz: Based upon timeline to date, what will happen first:
- proof of claims
- Sun goes Red Giant
 
My Claims Is Very Substantive.

Apollo was/is a military program that sought to and succeeded in instrumenting the moon for earth/space surveillance, reconnaissance and communication. Apollo program military equipment was also used in an ultimate sense to not only "defensively" detect Soviet ICBM activity, but was employed in an offensive capacity to aid in the targeting of US ICBMs upon the soil of Russia, China and the land of other nations viewed as hostile, or potentially so. .

Patrick1000 said:
By primary sources I mean the voice transcript and , debriefing reports
..
 
Well, here's a list of the ALSEP packages deployed, and how they were used:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Lunar_Surface_Experiments_Package
Along with some pictures of the units in situ...not really seeing anything that could have any real military application...
All things considered, loads of evidence that Apollo went to the moon & deployed said experiments in comparison to the frantic handwavings of an exposed liar who cannot properly cite evidence or even frame a coherent theory. You would think that someone with a PhD would understand & know how to write a proper paper. Based on his current style of writing, I would love to see what Patrick presented for his Doctoral Thesis (or been in on his Thesis defense for that matter)
 
A lie is a literary device?

You were asked in a straightforward manner what your day job is. You responded in a straightforward manner that you were a dentist.

Proof again that you're unable or unwilling to give a straight answer to a simple question.

No, it's not obvious that you're employing some "literary device." You've been caught lying too much to get that benefit of the doubt.

As a lurker in the thread, it was apparent to me that he was making a joke, but your answer points out the general problem of mocking your opponents in the middle of a heated online debate. Also the more specific problem of P1K making a joke when there is no reliable way to distinguish one piece of his nonsense from another. The joke would have been funny if he was presenting a sound argument, but instead the humor was in highlighting the pretense of competence that P1K labors under.
 
I have already posted more than once that one thing they needed back in 1960 for improved ICBM targeting was empiric data to give better numbers for k2, J, K and ke2.

How come you don't understand the difference between radians and degrees, minutes and seconds? Do you know what gradients are?

How come you can't read a map in standard cartesian coordinates?

How come you oscillate between different personas? Or personae?
 
You are correct about that abaddon

How come you don't understand the difference between radians and degrees, minutes and seconds? Do you know what gradients are?

How come you can't read a map in standard cartesian coordinates?

How come you oscillate between different personas? Or personae?

Radian measure is a ratio, degrees/minutes/seconds something else. I first wrote "minutes/seconds" in my posts when referring to 00 41' 15" north and 23 26' 00" east type notation which of course is correct. As you have noted I am sure, my consistent use of the terms "minutes of arc, seconds of arc" throughout when discussing the LAM 2 map and so forth. Though at times in other context's of the thread I have used the term radian incorrectly when referring to degree/minutes/seconds format. Thanks for pointing that out. Doesn't change the substance of any of my arguments and will of course be consistent moving forward as I was more careful earlier on.
 
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Every major point I make is backed by well referenced support as my post just above.

{snip}

Stalingrad, RATTENKRIEG

Apollo in its death throes, all of you running for your lives.

Well, we can add military history to the extensive list of things you don't know. Rattenkrieg refers not to foes running away like rats, but to the fierce house to house fighting that took place in the tunnels and basements of Stalingrad.

For all their faults, neither side ran away at Stalingrad.
 
This thread is being closed until a member of the Moderating Team has the time to go through it and clean up the multiple breaches of the Membership Agreement that have been brought to our attention. As always, do not start another thread on the subject matter in the interim.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL
 
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I have gone through the last 7 pages and moved those posts in breach of rule 0, rule 11, rule 12 to here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221334

If you feel your post was wrongly moved, or feel a post should have been but was not, you are welcome to PM me, post a question in Forum Moderation/Questions, or file an Appeal.

More posts may be moved as well as other moderation action (ie. infractions).

For now, I've re-opened this thread but it is on Moderated Status.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar
 
Radian measure is a ratio, degrees/minutes/seconds something else.

No. Both radians and degrees measure angles in a plane. A specific, unchanging number of each unit comprise a full circle, so there is a linear relationship between radians and degrees. A straightforward linear formula converts between them. Your problem is using the values expressed in one unit as if they had been expressed in the other unit, without apparently realizing that a difference existed. Your error didn't appear to be in omitting the conversion. Your error appeared to be in failing to comprehend the system. This is a much more serious error, as I describe below, and one that you can't easily commit and expect to still achieve credibility.

Your description of radians as a ratio seems to come from Wikipedia, which is describing how the base unit is defined in that system. The base unit in the DMS system is derived by a different strategy. But this is irrelevant to their practical use. I can point out that many EES units are derived as non-decimal (i.e., somewhat arbitrary) subdivisions of larger units, or multiples of smaller ones. And I can similarly point out that many SI base units are derived from measured properties of the physical world, such as the behavior of pure water -- a vastly different strategy. But the fact remains that linear relationships exist among them, and straightforward conversions are possible. The difference in defining the base units according to natural ratios, physically measured properties, or arbitrary standards does not convey a conceptual or theoretical difference in their use.

You're trying to parlay the notion that the vast difference in the philosophy behind how each base unit is defined somehow defeats the notion that they both create a consistent set of fixed units for measuring the same physical property. In short, you still seem not to understand the system.

Doesn't change the substance of any of my arguments...

The substance of your argument is to compare the reported facts with your expectations. If the reports fail to meet your expectations, you say that it's because the reports are the product of a hoax. But you haven't shown what you did first to test your expectations, such that they can be considered the gold standard of validity. That makes the validity of your expectations a legitimate and important line of questioning.

This is why I keep asking why your standards don't seem to be shared by other people, especially by people who can demonstrate an appropriate knowledge base from which to extract practical expectations. You don't get to beg the question that your expectations are reasonable.

Your inability to demonstrate competency in basic concepts of map-reading and angle measurement leads us to conclude that your expectations are naive. Therefore we conclude that the most likely explanation for why the reported facts don't match your expectations is that your expectations are poorly informed.

Yes, you try to pass them off as innocent errors. But it's simply not that easy. These are not the sort of errors in comprehension that suitably informed people make. So yes, this does change the substance of your argument by casting meaningful doubt on your ability to set reasonable standards for the evidence you propose to study. We again apply a check on your standards by noting that suitably qualified experts do not apply those same standards and consequently do not reject the evidence as fraudulent.

...and will of course be consistent moving forward as I was more careful earlier on.

Indeed, but the problem is that you seem to have already drawn your conclusions. For the past few months you have stood unwavering in your conclusion that Apollo was faked, except for one tactical withdrawal you made at a different forum. Aside from that, you've deployed a half dozen or so arguments you consider "smoking gun" evidence that Apollo was faked.

Normally when someone's argument is seriously undermined by egregious error, it is customary to question the strength of the conclusion. You don't appear to do this. In fact, you do explicitly the opposites -- you assert that errors in your judgment, knowledge, or reasoning are invariably inconsequential. When the principal premise of the argument is your personal judgment in assessing the value and import of historical evidence, you may not recover so easily from serious error.

You convey the distinct impression that you've made up your mind ahead of time, and now you're just searching for the semblance of an intellectual argument to support what you've already decided to believe.
 
I like the idea from the youtube that Buzz Aldrin killed Michael Jackson.....
 
The facts are as follows...there is literally mountains of evidence that Apollo happened "as advertized". The recent LRO images of the Apollo landing sites are additional evidence to add to those "mountains".

Arguments against the reality of Apollo must consist of more than "I can't/don't/won't understand how they did it, therefore it must have been faked".

That is argument from ignorance, and has no place in a rational discussion.
 
Kennedy Knew We Weren't Going To the Moon, Apollo Was Military From The Get Go

It is more than obvious that Eisenhower set up NASA from the get go as a "military cover", a means to hide our intentions and actions in the weaponization of space from the prying eyes of congress and the "why should they need to know about this stuff in the first, second, or third place anyway public". Kennedy's May 25, 1961, "Let's Go to the Moon Clarion Call" was nothing more than a continuation of that Eisenhower approach; NASA, now Apollo, as a front for weapons in space.

The idea for NASA, and as it in fact played out, would be to have the space agency serve as a "civilian cover" for work on our ICBM delivery system and our system of detecting and defending against Ruskie ICBM launches in as an unihibited(by congress and the public) and unencumbered(by congress and the public) way as possible. Plenty of money and no accountability.

Part of this grand design was to instrument the moon. Right from the get go. The moon would serve once so instrumented, as the U.S. defense system's main military space platform. So instrumented, the platform would be jam-proof, or nearly so. It could never be "taken out". Measurements could be made from it and utilized in ICBM targeting and so forth and so on.


Consider that the most important governmental policy question to be addressed in the wake of the Sputnik launch and that Russian satellite's oribiting in 1957 was, "How were the Americans best to respond, not psychologically, but militarily??????????????"

Sputnik meant the Ruskies had a fully operational ICBM before the Americans did. President Eisenhower set up first the Defense Advanced Research Agency in the Office of the Secretary of Defense and then NASA was established in 1958.

NASA was said to have "inherited" three space programs from the Department of Defense;

1) Human spaceflight, what would become project Mercury.

2) The von Braun designed and directed Saturn C-1 vehicle Project. The C-1 vehicle would have 1.5 million pounds of thrust, 4 X that of the 360,000 Atlas ICBM rocket. NASA was planning on using the Atlas booster for the project Mercury orbital flights.

3) The F-1, originally an Air Force project. This single rocket engine was hoped to deliver 1.5 million pounds of thrust, equal to the eight engine compliment that was to drive the Saturn C-1.

Von Braun had been coopted by the U.S, Army after WWII. There is no way the army was going to let this guy off to do "civilian work" when the most pressing American space needs were quite simply, military needs. Von Braun went to NASA, sure as shoot, when Eisenhower formed the organization/NASA for the express purpose of hiding its nefarious activities. The simple fact that Von Braun made this move, from the US Army to NASA, proves flat out NASA was/IS military. Could not have been anything but military. NASA was our answer to Sputinik, and it most decidedly was not a "civilian" answer. Just ask Neil Armstong, a civilian who helped with NASA's weaponization of space in general, and the American weaponization of the moon in particular. This, despite Armstrong's nothing less than substandard abilities as an actor. Guess the Boy Scouts never had a "Theater Performance Merit Badge". Might have helped ol' Neil if they had had one.

NASA, right from the get go, was a big time ruse. The Kennedy, "Let's Go to the Moon Clarion Call", right from the get go, a big time ruse. Yes the Ruskies were ahead, ahead MILITARILY. NASA was our answer, our way to weaponize space regardless of the treaties we would sign(for example that of 1967, an international treaty that explicitly forbade weaponizing space, including the moon).

It is al so very very very very clear now. John F. Kennedy, one heck of a pitch man!
 
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Total weapons currently in space consist of one handgun in a russian survival kit. So weaponisation not so much.

The kind of heavy lift rockets that Apollo used have limited millitary applications.

That NASA is involved with millitary technology isn't secret. Just look at the X-planes. It's noticable that stuff the US really wants to keep secret doesn't involve NASA.

Oh and project mercury came from NACA.
 
So much wrong...where to begin
1.)Project Vanguard was severely underfunded under Eisenhower, which is why Sputnik gets off the ground first...In fact, NRL used the Viking series of rockets (which were not Ballistic missiles, unlike the Redstone) In short, for a military op, they tried to do too much with next to zero funding...That doesn't sound like a military project to me, esp. when you consider what they were dumping into ICBM development at the time
2.)Sputnik had nothing to do with a functional ICBM, it was for scientific purposes & re-entered after like 3 months...a pretty short term project...
NASA was and has always been a civilian agency. There was never any weapon development or placement by them, that is the purview of the Air Force. Once again, lots of accusations, no hard evidence on your part...
 
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