Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

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Bri said:
Why wouldn't you? Do you think you could find two people with exactly the same goals? The whole point of a protest is to join other people who have a goal in common and hope that the numbers will pressure politicians to act towards that goal.

In this case, the common goal seems to be to make things more equitable between the rich/powerful and the middle class. And according to recent polls, the vast majority of Americans agree with the sentiment.

-Bri
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And I agree with it too. But this alliance won't last when someone finally starts to think of what should be done to make it happen. And then all the protests will be for naught and we'll be back to square one.

Or more likely, given the new groups entering the fray, the whole thing will be coopted by the American labor unions and we'll still be back to square one.

The problem is you're thinking that everyone does have the same goal, bt they don't. They have the same TARGET. And that is completely different.
 
Emperor_Gestahl said:
Here's a good place to start.. Page 6 is very educational as to how this situation is able to continue.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/why-isnt-wall-street-in-jail-20110216

As for particular people, Fabrice Tourre. Anyone materially involved with the GS fraud against their clients involving John Paulson.. Hell, anyone involved in misrepresenting the quality of CMBS could be charged with fraud, when money is changing hands based on knowingly false or incomplete information the executive branch could make a case if they felt like it. They don't feel like it.

And hey how about the fraud shops where people were paid $10/hr to sign other people's names on mortgage documents? Good old fashioned forgery mills.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7361572n

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/01/60minutes/main20049646.shtml

How about anyone involved in setting up that outfit? How bout anyone who had knowledge of these felonies while they were being committed? Much like with a roach infestation these are just the criminals I can see crawling around out in the open, if the Justice Dept were brave enough to look behind the fridge we could likely get up to the several thousands of indictments we saw in the 1990s the last time banks decided laws were only for poor people. (edit) Turns out they were wrong.. that time.
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Right, you sited Matt Taibbi. Is anyone capable of passing the third grade capable of explaining which Wall Street insiders belong in jail?
 
WildCat said:
Did you read my links about how Chicago union bosses got a sweetheart pension law passed for labor bosses in return for union support? The other one showing Illinois' public pensions are underfunded by $80 billion, and the recent 66% tax increase went entirely to paying off pension benefits> How Gov. Quinn cut a deal with the unioins just prior to the election agreeing not to lay off any union worker until after 2012? And how the budget will have to be cut in other areas solely to keep unneeded union members on the payroll?

Public unions have so much influence over Springfield they received benefits the state simply cannot afford. Corporations are threatening to flee the state to avoid the tax hikes they anticipate coming to fund the $80 billion state pension deficit. Big companies are negotiating deals to stay, small companies just move with little fanfare or notice except to their few employees. Those that remain must pay the pension bills when they come due.
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I've read the links now. The first sounds like dodgy political dealings, the second sounds like outright corruption. But these examples of trade union corruption don't show that other branches elsewhere must have unscrupulous motives in protesting in such a way that on paper falls in line with their typical political beliefs. Careful with that tar and brush set.
 
Neally said:
And the current protest fails since they are all over the map with what they are protesting, other than "Wall street bad". Stay tuned next week when we will see Wall street responding by being less bad.
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Wall street is not a group that will be particularly swayed by the protests, but what they might do is show political leaders that there are votes to be won by acting in a way that curbs the worst excesses of banker bonuses and the control of huge portions of wealth by a small portion of society. And it may be largely inneffective, but it's certainly better than doing nothing if those are your political beliefs.
 
WildCat said:
What identity? It's a collection of every wingnut cause out there, from Ron Paultards to communists to anarchists to anti-Israel to people who like to dress as zombies.

They want more government, less government, more immigration, protectionism, etc etc. They protest corporations even as they organize on Facebook and Twitter and Youtube using laptop computers and smart phones, all fruits of corporations. They rail against oil companies while powering generators with gasoline. They want to end capitalism, while also getting better pay. What entity will pay them absent capitalism I have no idea.

Kids throwing a temper tantrum, basically.
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Correct and well stated.
 
stokes234 said:
And it may be largely inneffective, but it's certainly better than doing nothing if those are your political beliefs.
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The city of Los Angeles passed an ordinance requiring certain strandards of ethics from any financial instituion doing business with the city.

Protestors one, banksters SQUAT.
 
stokes234 said:
I've read the links now. The first sounds like dodgy political dealings, the second sounds like outright corruption. But these examples of trade union corruption don't show that other branches elsewhere must have unscrupulous motives in protesting in such a way that on paper falls in line with their typical political beliefs. Careful with that tar and brush set.
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What it demontrates is a real-world example of why FDR thought public employee unions were a bad idea. Too much conflict of interest and inherent corruption.
 
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I would rather have the unions in place to watch out for the interests of the workers and the people they are there to serve. Their first duty should be to the agencies, rather than to the political appointees temporarily running the show.

A union worker is more likely to blow the whistle if an appointee tries to sabotage the department because it is harder for a vengeful superior to fire them for speaking out.
 
WildCat said:
What it demontrates is a real-world example of why FDR thought public employee unions were a bad idea. Too much conflict of interest and inherent corruption.
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Right. So you've got an example. If I post an example of private healthcare corruption, have I won the argument against private healthcare everywhere? If I post an example of a rogue trader losing $2 billion dollars, have I shown that banks everywhere are incompetent and corrupt and need to be brought in line?
 
WildCat said:
What it demontrates is a real-world example of why FDR thought public employee unions were a bad idea. Too much conflict of interest and inherent corruption.
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Of course, you know, he would also have hadd worthless scum like the executives of KBR in Leavenworth, right?
 
Emperor_Gestahl said:
Alright, still waiting for specifics though.
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I gave it a second chance and read all the way through, and it was just what the first few pages implied, a hit piece that simply assumes that everyone on Wall Street is pure evil and that the SEC and Justice Department actively conspire with them to protect them. Without these assumptions his "evidence" which consists entirely of hearsay and more assumptions of evil presented in an extremely one sided way isn't very compelling. And it seems that he is completely unaware that errors and poor business decisions can be made without evil motives. And he is all over the place. For most of the article he accuses the SEC and Justice Department of being evil conspirators, then at the end, switches gears and claims that all government employees are stupid and everyone on Wall Street is super duper smart and that is how they get away with all of this vague fraud.

Perhaps the problem is that he seems to think that saying, "some guys told me that Wall Street is evil" is a perfectly valid reason to throw people in jail, whereas the SEC and Justice Department need actual evidence of wrongdoing to go after someone. "Someone told me..." may be good enough for Michele Bachman but it isn't good enough to bring charges and certainly isn't good enough to get a conviction.
 
Emperor_Gestahl said:
And hey how about the fraud shops where people were paid $10/hr to sign other people's names on mortgage documents? Good old fashioned forgery mills.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7361572n

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/01/60minutes/main20049646.shtml

How about anyone involved in setting up that outfit? How bout anyone who had knowledge of these felonies while they were being committed? Much like with a roach infestation these are just the criminals I can see crawling around out in the open, if the Justice Dept were brave enough to look behind the fridge we could likely get up to the several thousands of indictments we saw in the 1990s the last time banks decided laws were only for poor people. (edit) Turns out they were wrong.. that time.
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This is much better, although it is difficult to see how this will lead to anyone on Wall Street getting locked up, banks will say they outsourced work to a third party, and that third party engaged in fraud, and it has been shut down and is being investigated. Companies outsource work all of the time, if you hire a call center to do some marketing for you, and the call center employees commit fraud, you won't be in trouble but they will be.
 
What a bunch of boring old farts!

"Every generation needs a new revolution." -Thomas Jefferson

The system is collapsing. What do you expect to happen on the streets?
 
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stokes234 said:
Right. So you've got an example. If I post an example of private healthcare corruption, have I won the argument against private healthcare everywhere?
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If you posted an article likely someone either went to jail or is on trial. The corruption I pointed out is all nice and legal, which makes it far more insidious.

stokes234 said:
If I post an example of a rogue trader losing $2 billion dollars, have I shown that banks everywhere are incompetent and corrupt and need to be brought in line?
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Did the banker suffer no consequences?

I just showed you how irresponsible public union contracts have bankrupted my state, all nice and legal. And most of the people responsible are long since out of office or even dead, there's no one to hold accountable for the mess they've made. That's the problem with making deals they know are bad, but the bad things don't happen for 20-30 years. And the good things (getting re-elected, no labor strife) happen right away.

It's an inherently bad system.
 
Emperor Gestahl

I thought the tea-baggers were astroturf from the get-go?

Regardless, there is a worry that they could be corrupted by special interests, as well as the possibility of agents provocateur infiltrating the group and goading people into acts of violence justifying a crackdown.
 
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