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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Because they used 'drugs' (aspirin perhaps?) they are guilty of murder?

Massei says they are guilty of murder for other reasons, entirely different.


Antonio Curatolo is 'established to be reliable'?

Well, I think he's far more reliable than Amanda Knox. He never changed his version. And was never disproven. Anyway, I'm not his judge.
 
But, a sentencing report validated by Cassazione is, by Italian law, a valid piece of evidence to be used in a trial. It is technically a piece of circumstantial evidence.
So the events are not entirely independent.


But you seem to be claiming that because Rudy Guede's conviction was upheld by the higher court (Cassazione) that the appellate court in Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito's separate trial was somehow bound by the "multiple attacker" theory that both Guede and the prosecution promoted in Guede's trial.

This is wrong.

Judge Hellmann's court had no obligation whatsoever to accept that scenario and was perfectly entitled to come to a different conclusion (whether it did or not, we won't know until we read the reasons for judgment (motivations report)) based upon the evidence presented to it in Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito's trial.

One is not dependent on the other or bound by the other.
 
Aviello and Alessi bring in false testimonies. There is no doubt their accounts are false. This fact, alone, can be considered evidence against the suspects because innocent defendants don't attempt to bring false accounts in teir defense. It happens that a topic in these testimonies is the defendants alibi, that is the argument of their "not being there". What those defendents are called to say, is that Sollecito and Knox were not there. But at the same time their purpose is also to bring in some suspicion that there could be a scenario with multiple attackers other than Sollecito and Knox.

Why is there no doubt that Alessis testimony is false? It's backed by other prisoners. It casts more than a shadow of a doubt over Guedes already shaky testimony.
 
With respect, Machiavelli, this makes no sense.

In Rudy Guede's trial, neither Ms. Knox, Mr. Sollecito, or their respective lawyers were parties or had any standing to cross-examine witnesses, call evidence, or make submissions, so it is not the case that the factual findings made by the court of first instance in Rudy Guede's trial are binding in any way, shape or form on the trials of Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito. It matters not at all that the Italian higher court found that Guede's trial was such that no legal errors were made that would entitle him to a reversal of his conviction. There is a vast difference between findings of fact based on the evidence proffered by the prosecution and the defence, and errors of law.

To contend that the higher court's confirmation of Rudy Guede's conviction in his separate trial somehow binds the trial judges in the trial of Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito as to findings of fact that were made in Guede's trial is incorrect, and demonstrates an egregious miscomprehension of the law.

When the trials of multiple accused persons are separated, there is always the risk of inconsistent verdicts insofar as factual findings are concerned because the evidence presented in one trial may be very different than the evidence presented in another. This is well known and recognized, but it does not serve to make the factual findings made in the trial of one of the accused binding upon the court hearing the evidence in the trial of the other accused. To suggest otherwise would be perverse, since the accused in the later trial were not parties to the earlier trial.

The reality in this case is that it was in Rudy Guede's best interests to promote the idea of multiple attackers, in order to try to minimize his own actions, and it was simultaneously in the best interests of the prosecution in Rudy Guede's trial to promote the idea of multiple attackers because the police and prosecution had already nailed their colours to the multiple attacker mast by prematurely jailing Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito (and Mr. Lumumba) and had long since wed themselves to a particular scenario that they set out to prove come hell or high water. But none of that makes any of the factual findings made in Rudy Guede's case - at any level - binding upon those hearing the case of Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito, because they were not parties to that trial, had no representation at that trial, had no right of cross-examination at that trial, and no right to call evidence or make submissions at that trial.

The fact that Rudy's verdict is not binding, does not mean that has no influence. To understand the point, see two posts above. A definitive verdict can be brought into another trial as it is by the prosecution, and becomes a piece of circumstantial evidence.

The opinion about Rudy Guede's best interest is very disputable. First as a matter of fact, Rudy Guede testified of a single perpetrator scenario for the killing. Second, Rudy Guede's interest actually cannot be considered a factor from which other decisions may depend.

Amanda Knox was not jailed prematurely, she was jailed when she falsely accused an innocent person, btw a crime she committed maliciously for which she was found guilty; and they were jailed when Raffaele Sollecito changed his version dramatically withdrawing her alibi, he said he was not in her company and said she had asked him to tell lies. The two suspects were jailed after these things happened, not prematurely. Lumumba was also jailed after Amanda released stetements against him.

Finally, about Rudy Guede, the law is that their being or not being party in that trial doesn't matter at all: a verdict from a trial can be used in another trial, when it becomes definitive. No matter who was party or represented. That is the law. It is also true that, while they were not parties, if they wanted to they could have taken part as witnesses in his trial. Rudy was asked by the prosecution to take part in their trial, he declined. They always decline.
 
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In case of judicial corruption, one of these two forces is required to play: money or massonry. They are required but they are not sufficient.

Surely you are not advocating a... <dramatic music> conspiracy theory?

(How am I the first to raise this issue? Don't we have a corps of ever-alert and completely even-handed posters here who are definitely not guilters and who will pull people up without fear or favour if they argue for a <dramatic music> conspiracy theory? I guess they were all asleep).
 
But you seem to be claiming that because Rudy Guede's conviction was upheld by the higher court (Cassazione) that the appellate court in Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito's separate trial was somehow bound by the "multiple attacker" theory that both Guede and the prosecution promoted in Guede's trial.

This is wrong.

Judge Hellmann's court had no obligation whatsoever to accept that scenario and was perfectly entitled to come to a different conclusion (whether it did or not, we won't know until we read the reasons for judgment (motivations report)) based upon the evidence presented to it in Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito's trial.

One is not dependent on the other or bound by the other.

The female judge on Porta a porta and the host of the show apparently argue that it is: http://www.rai.tv/dl/RaiTV/programmi/media/ContentItem-5b19958e-38c2-4728-bd65-8bf4cf9a1dcf.html

I don't know what they're saying, but maybe Machiavelli can help us out.
 
But you seem to be claiming that because Rudy Guede's conviction was upheld by the higher court (Cassazione) that the appellate court in Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito's separate trial was somehow bound by the "multiple attacker" theory that both Guede and the prosecution promoted in Guede's trial.

This is wrong.

Judge Hellmann's court had no obligation whatsoever to accept that scenario and was perfectly entitled to come to a different conclusion (whether it did or not, we won't know until we read the reasons for judgment (motivations report)) based upon the evidence presented to it in Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito's trial.

One is not dependent on the other or bound by the other.

It is not bound to it, but there is one more piece of circumstantial evidence that points to the multiple assailants scenario.
 
Maori is not ignorant, Maori is just lying,

You are offending Maresca, Mignini and Comodi asserting that they "try to obfuscate",

I think the famous profiler should be sued, had he been in Italy.


Wait, what?

It appears that you think it's okay for you to opine that Maori is lying, but it's not okay for anyone to opine that Maresca, Mignini or Comodi are "trying to obfuscate," and it's not okay for Mr. Douglas to state his opinions about the case and so he should be sued.

The way I see it, everyone is entitled to state their opinions about the matter. Why is it that you (apparently) think otherwise? If Mr. Douglas deserves being sued (in your view) for stating his opinion about the matter, shouldn't you also deserve to be sued for accusing Maori of lying?
 
The female judge on Porta a porta and the host of the show apparently argue that it is: http://www.rai.tv/dl/RaiTV/programmi/media/ContentItem-5b19958e-38c2-4728-bd65-8bf4cf9a1dcf.html

I don't know what they're saying, but maybe Machiavelli can help us out.

LOL. Could you imagine if the Supreme Court decided that it would reinstate the guilty verdict on the grounds that in some other proceeding, in which Amanda Knox was not a participant, it was decided that Amanda Knox was guilty? Italy would be a laughingstock.
 
Andrea Vogt on Guede

Ms. Vogt wrote, "And Rudy Guede himself feels indignant, according to La Repubblica. He is serving a 16-year jail sentence for a murder he has always denied (he said he was in the bathroom when he heard Meredith's screams) and now he wants to know why he's the 'only one left to pay... I want to yell at my lawyers, everyone... They were found innocent and I am still here.'"
I would say that she is in a league of her own, but there is always Barbie.
 
Moreover, it is worth to point out that Alessi and in particular Aviello's testimonies came out at a specific moment of the trial, having a specific function: they were needed to counter-balance the definitive Casazione ruling on Rudy Guede's verdict, which became a piece of evidence indicating that the crime was committed by more than one person. Because of this new evidence of a "multiple-assailants" scenario, the defence called new witnesses that would make it become compatible with Sollecito's absence.

Completely wrong. This is a total misconception.

The purpose of Alessi's testimony was to show that Guede had admitted Knox and Sollecito's innocence. It had nothing to do with multiple assailants. Yes, the story Guede told Alessi involved someone else, but that was only so that Guede could shift the blame off of himself, and is entirely incidental to the purpose for which he was called.

Aviello was suggested by Knox's attorneys, apparently to show that the police had failed to investigate all leads. I think his testimony was a complete waste of time, as there was no connection between Aviello's brother and Guede, and anyone who is guilty must be connected to Guede somehow. However, once again, the number of assailants was not the issue.
 
The fact that Rudy's verdict is not binding, does not mean that has no influence. To understand the point, see two posts above. A definitive verdict can be brought into another trial as it is by the prosecution, and becomes a piece of circumstantial evidence.

The opinion about Rudy Guede's best interest is very disputable. First as a matter of fact, Rudy Guede testified of a single perpetrator scenario for the killing. Second, Rudy Guede's interest actually cannot be considered a factor from which other decisions may depend.

Amanda Knox was not jailed prematurely, she was jailed when she falsely accused an innocent person, btw a crime she committed maliciously for which she was found guilty; and they were jailed when Raffaele Sollecito changed his version dramatically withdrawing her alibi, he said he was not in her company and said she had asked him to tell lies. The two suspects were jailed after these things happened, not prematurely. Lumumba was also jailed after Amanda released stetements against him.

Finally, about Rudy Guede, the law is that their being or not being party in that trial doesn't matter at all: a verdict from a trial can be used in another trial, when it becomes definitive. No matter who was party or represented. That is the law. It is also true that, while they were not parties, if they wanted to they could have taken part as witnesses in his trial. Rudy was asked by the prosecution to take part in their trial, he declined. They always decline.


I fear you're rambling, Machiavelli, and making little sense, but I'll address the only point worth addressing.

The Guede verdict and its being upheld by the higher court is not only not binding (which a bunch of pro-guilt folks, yourself included, argued before the verdict in Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito's case), it's not even considered "persuasive"; it's completely irrelevant.

You're simply wrong on this on all counts, and it wouldn't hurt you to either admit that or just drop it.

ETA: As for the interrogations, have you seen the videotapes of them? I'd sure like to.
 
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He was above all very thorough in defending the credibility of Antonio Curatolo. . . . Costagliola was not leading the accusation and the dealing with evidence in the case, but he was in fact a leader in the topics discussied in the appeal hearing. He was focused in showing that the defendants have lost in the court discussion in the appeal round, in the part about the "new" evidence.

Perhaps it would have been better if Costagliola hadn't spoken? Because I don't think Curatalo and the "new" evidence worked out too well for him.

He spoke about a "media attack" (meaning Italian media) very aggressively, and also emphasized the role of the Procura Generale as a "non adversarial" organ.

So how did this argument go? "I urge you to convict the defendant because we are non-adversarial"? Anyone see the irony here?
 
It is not bound to it, but there is one more piece of circumstantial evidence that points to the multiple assailants scenario.


No, it is not even circumstantial evidence of the "multiple attackers" theory in the trial of Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito at all. That's rather the point, and a point that you seem to keep missing.

It is nothing more than a data point about something that was heard in some other trial, in which Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito were not parties and were not represented, and it has no bearing on the findings of fact made in the trial of Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito.

It is not evidence - circumstantial or otherwise - as to the guilt or innocence of Ms. Knox or Mr. Sollecito in their court proceedings, nor is it evidence - circumstantial or otherwise - as to the "multiple attackers" theory that both Guede and the prosecution chose to run with in Guede's trial.
 
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Thanks. In that case I think Hellmann's words don't actually rule out 530.1.



Not necessarily: he could be saying that the evidence Mignini was presented with by the police was more than enough evidence to investigate them. Things like the 112 call, the missing sweatshirt, Raffaele's shoe print in Meredith's bedroom, Amanda's shoe print on the pillow, the kitchen knife, and the bra clasp. It all looked terribly convincing, and you can't really blame Mignini for investigating them; it's just that it all turned out to be either bogus or later discredited.

In terms of the calunnia, I think it really depends on how they explain the conviction in the motivations. If they conclude that while it was a result of pressure from the police, but not sufficient pressure to lead her to make the accusation, they could find her guilty of the calunnia without it having any impact on the murder charge.

But this reasoning is not balanced, katy. You look for a glimmer, but most of the way is blocked. The calunnia for example, does not depend entirely on how it is seen in the motivations. Because the motivations will have to contain also argumanta a contrariis, considering both possibilities. The calunnia might be totally independent and motivated independently from the murder; but this is unlikely. It is a teorethical possibility, not the most likely: the implication in a murder would be a very strong motive to commit a calunnia, logically much stronger than a generic motive as "pressure" or Amanda's strange charachter. This motive "attracts" the calunnia and this big possibility creates itself suspicion, the calunnia might be originated independently from this possibility, but because of the existence of it as a very logical link, the calunnia becomes a piece of circumstantial evidence.
The same goes for other pieces of evidence. There are many other lies told by Amanda, different from the calunnia; there are lies told by Sollecito; there are false alibies. There are witnesses against who are defintley not discredited. There are DNA findings which are certaily not reduced to zero. There are footprints and blood stains. There is an autopsy report, there is a cleaning and the staging of a break in under dispute (certainly no proven break in). The idea that there is no evidence at all is beyond the scope of reality.

On the other hand, Hellman says: the prosecutors have no fault, no responsability. He said he would have done "exactly" the same. He perfectly knows that the Procura and the scientific police spent millions to collect the evidence and push forward the trial. He alone takes responsability for the verdict. It's difficult to put this together with a "no evidence" view.
 
No, it is not even circumstantial evidence of the "multiple attackers" theory in the trial of Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito at all. That's rather the point, and a point that you seem to keep missing.

But it is. There is a law to provide this. It's something codified; it's not a matter of opinion.
 
Massei says they are guilty of murder for other reasons, entirely different.

Well, I think he's far more reliable than Amanda Knox. He never changed his version. And was never disproven. Anyway, I'm not his judge.

Well then, you can surround yourself with people like the drug dealing paid 'super witness', Mignini and the Perugian Police. I, meanwhile, will try my best to surround myself with people like the Knoxes and this forum.

You are what you like, what you want to be and what you want to emulate. And I'm not going to try to convince you what your friends should be like or who they should be.

However, I do notice that you are posting here. That's a good start.
 
Originally Posted by RWVBWL
What would make a court set both Raffaele and Amanda free, in your own opinion?
In case of judicial corruption, one of these two forces is required to play: money or massonry.
Surely you are not advocating a... <dramatic music> conspiracy theory?

(How am I the first to raise this issue? Don't we have a corps of ever-alert and completely even-handed posters here who are definitely not guilters and who will pull people up without fear or favour if they argue for a <dramatic music> conspiracy theory? I guess they were all asleep).

Must be a very big conspiracy too:
The point 1) is very serious. Yes I am suggesting Mignini was not given a fair trial. The issue is serious, but the Italian system had also more serious issues than this one.
 
The same goes for other pieces of evidence. There are many other lies told by Amanda, different from the calunnia; there are lies told by Sollecito; there are false alibies. There are witnesses against who are defintley not discredited. There are DNA findings which are certaily not reduced to zero. There are footprints and blood stains. There is an autopsy report, there is a cleaning and the staging of a break in under dispute (certainly no proven break in). The idea that there is no evidence at all is beyond the scope of reality.

Is there any other "evidence"? Because not one of these things implicates Knox and Sollecito in the murder.
 
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