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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Actually, they did. Italian jurisprudence as a concept of alibi, quite literal to the word "alibi" = elsewere (not here).
Any argument that talks about a person being not in the place when the crime took place is an alibi. This was contanied in Aviello and Alessi's second-ahd accounts.
Moreover, it is worth to point out that Alessi and in particular Aviello's testimonies came out at a specific moment of the trial, having a specific function: they were needed to counter-balance the definitive Casazione ruling on Rudy Guede's verdict, which became a piece of evidence indicating that the crime was committed by more than one person. Because of this new evidence of a "multiple-assailants" scenario, the defence called new witnesses that would make it become compatible with Sollecito's absence.

This what I was getting at. You use extreme technical legal points to refute a common language argument. The convicts clearly didn't provide an alibi but rather provided an alternative partner in crime for Rudy.

If the supreme court upholding the conviction of Rudy in which no effort was made to disprove the multiple attacker theory of the prosecutor means that in some way the Italian system now takes that theory to be true, it is a sad commentary on their system.

Mignini is more guilty at this point than Amanda and Raffaele are for murder and as guilty for calumnia.
 
Unfortunately it was a camera that was activated by cars/people moving in the parking lot, so not constantly filming; they could have gone into the cottage at a moment when the camera wasn't active.

Ah...thanks.

I guess I have to admit that it is therefore not impossible that they started 'Naruto' playing, grabbed the knife in one hand and Rudy in the other, raced over to the cottage, pausing every 15 yards to gulp down a bottle of beer each, popped a few pills at the same time, quickly took some drugs every 50 yards or so, finally staggered into the house and..........stabbed Meredith.

Ok then.

I concede that the guilters may have a point. :jaw-dropp
 
A few posts moved to AAH.

This thread is about the case, not each other. Thanks.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Gaspode
 
I wish that we could have a little less rancor. I'm challenging Mach but hopefully on substance of his argument and his methods of argument but not character.

I do find that elsewhere people are now focusing on the calumnia charge and are seemingly happy about it.

I wonder if the supremes send it back to the court of first instance (if that's possible) will the PGP focus on Amanda's noise ticket and the $250 fine?

It is also noteworthy that they don't seem very concerned that Raffaele has no remaining charges.
 
Of course, but the Cassazione ruling on Guede makes his appeal verdict become definitive. The Cassazione verdict was anticipated. It was predictable thus that the appeal verdict would have become definitive.

I think it's more likely the introduction of Alessi/Aviello was a reaction to the Massei motivations - the mindset that if Rudy didn't act alone Amanda and Raffaele are guilty - than it was to the Supreme Court ruling eight months later. It was just to make sure all bases were covered: Rudy acted alone; but even if he didn't, that doesn't implicate the defendants. That would be my take on it anyway.

If it really was so predictable the Supreme Court would just rubber stamp the lower courts' multiple attacker theory, even eight months beforehand, then that seems to rob the SC ruling of any real significance: they predictably just repeated what the lower courts said.
 
I wish that we could have a little less rancor. I'm challenging Mach but hopefully on substance of his argument and his methods of argument but not character.

Thank you. I was trying to find a way to say this but you already did it.
 
Ensure your posts address the argument, not the arguer.

(Just emphasizing the point I made in my previous mod box since some of you apparently missed it).
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Gaspode
 
Did you know that in Mignini's conviction, the Procura of Florence who indicted him and the victims of his alleged crime are the same people?
And, do you know that not even one piece of evidence and not one accusation argument is about Mignini? All "evidence" is against Michele Giuttari. Mignini was convicted, literally, because he did not side with the judge against Giuttari in the trial.
Do you know that the verdict is pending before the Supreme Court even if it is just a first instance trial?
Did you read that sentencing report?

I trust Mignini and I see absolutely no reason to distrust him, I can only see reasons for trusting him.
On the other hand, the Associazione Nazionale Magistrati of Umbria has issued and signed unanimusly a document of solidarity expresing total support of him, and the Supreme Council of Magistrates had promoted him.
But anyway, did you consider that in this case there is a prosecution office, another prosecutor, a prosecutor general, and a chief prosecutor: all the highest authorities of Public Ministers in Umbria, all aligned in the accusation line? They all accuse Knox and Sollecito. Nobody has ever taken distance from Mignini, never in any occasion. Moreover, there is a chain of 20+ judges who took part in building the accusation.

Amanda Knox is not just a convicted liar. She was a proven liar even before, she is a person who had told lies since day one.


1) Are you suggesting that Mignini was not given a fair trial? Do you realise the implications of what you are suggesting? Do you realise what a massive accusation you would be making about the Florentine judicial system? Do you think that might get you into trouble?

2) How supportive of Mignini/Comodi was the lead prosecutor in the appeal trial, Giancarlo Costagliola? Why did he apparently play almost no role whatsoever in the entire appeal trial? Why did he seemingly make no public statement after the verdict?

3) Amanda Knox is not a convicted liar. Please stop repeating that untruth. You ought to know far better.
 
Barbie, yesterday:

"2. Why were you bleeding? Your lawyers agree with the prosecution’s findings that at least one of the spots of Meredith’s blood found in the house where she was killed had your blood mixed with it. Your mother told me that you had your period. Your stepfather told others that your ear piercings were infected. Which was it? Even if this mixed blood drop is contentious in its genetic makeup (all blood or blood mixed with DNA), the appellate court was shown a picture of a drop of blood attributed entirely to Knox on the faucet." Barbie Nadeau
____________________________

No. I'm not making this up. As you can see, Barbie's still confused after four long years and (she says) after consulting several dozen forensic scientists about the "mixed blood" evidence. Amanda's lawyers at no time agreed that any of Meredith's blood was found mixed with Amanda's blood.
///


It's hard to believe that Nadeau is still either ignorant or being deliberately deceptive on this issue: it has to be one of those two alternatives.

To be clear: there was no proven mixed blood evidence. The swabs taken from the bowl of the sink contained mixed DNA, but this was very likely Meredith's blood plus Knox's DNA from normal washing or tooth-brushing. The video of the swab collection shows that the evidence in the sink bowl was extraordinarily improperly collected: the collector (who evidently doubled as the police photographer!) swabbed the sink in long, wide sweeps, almost as if trying to clean the sink rather than delicately collect forensic evidence.

It's therefore entirely probable that these swabs picked up a large amount of material from the bowl of the sink, and this material most likely would have included DNA from Knox (and from Meredith, for that matter) since both women used this sink for their normal ablutions. Had the collector/photographer employed proper procedures - and had carefully and lightly spotted the blood traces in the sink with a fine swab - then the results could have been treated with much more confidence. If there had been mixed DNA under such proper collection procedures, then this would have been much more likely to constitute real probative evidence against Knox. But the dreadful and incompetent way in which the evidence was demonstrably collected virtually rules out its worth.

By contrast, the only place where Knox definitely deposited blood was on the top edge of the tap (faucet): there was a very small drop and smear, that was quite difficult to even see under the normal artificial lighting in the bathroom. This drop/smear contained Knox's DNA, but only Knox's DNA. It was also clearly different in its state of coagulation, colour and dryness to the blood in the bowl of the sink. It is not only possible, but in fact likely, that Knox deposited this small amount of blood onto the tap some days prior to the murder, when she was trying unsuccessfully to add extra piercings to her ears. It's likely that this small spot/smear of blood went unnoticed by Knox (or Meredith).
 
I think it's more likely the introduction of Alessi/Aviello was a reaction to the Massei motivations - the mindset that if Rudy didn't act alone Amanda and Raffaele are guilty - than it was to the Supreme Court ruling eight months later. It was just to make sure all bases were covered: Rudy acted alone; but even if he didn't, that doesn't implicate the defendants. That would be my take on it anyway.

If it really was so predictable the Supreme Court would just rubber stamp the lower courts' multiple attacker theory, even eight months beforehand, then that seems to rob the SC ruling of any real significance: they predictably just repeated what the lower courts said.

Yes, we have Massei report which endorses a theory of multiple attackers. This is one source to counter. But we have also Rudy's appeal, a conclusive report from another court, that is another piece of evidence for the multiple attacker theory, so we have two sources. To this, the defence needs a counter move. Aviello and Alessi bring in suspicion that a second attacker might have been there who is not Raffaele.

Moreover, the Aviello and Alessi testimonies might take advantage from the fact that one element of evidence - a possible semen stain - was not used in the Rudy trial and could in some way be exploited to emphasize a possible alternative scenario.

The reasoning about the SC ruling, I don't understand what you mean: the SC decision is a necessary step in order to use the Rudy verdict. But the Cassazione cannot modify the scenario; they could have rejected Rudy's appeal sentence and could have ordered a new trial, but not modify the conclusions. In this aspect, they could only repeat what the lowr court said, or in alternative reject the verdict. But not change the scenario for Rudy's conviction. Their acceptance of the verdict means that the lower court had worked properly in the evidence assessment, and thus the scenario they worked out is accepted.
 
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Will the US extradite Amanda to Italy for this?

No. There are so many levels all of whom do not want to see Amanda back in Italy. I don't even think the courts want her back. Without Amanda being in Italy they can have a nice quiet trial and debate these issues the way they normally do without all the international pressure.
 
Thanks. In that case I think Hellmann's words don't actually rule out 530.1.


At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Hellmann's comments definitely do not rule out 530.1. And the wording of Hellmann's courtroom verdict statement definitely demonstrates that 530.1 was applied to the acquittals on charges A, B, C and D (on the grounds that there was no evidence that the accused committed the crime), and the acquittals on charge E (on the grounds that the crime did not occur). I know that I am right on this (I've also had independent verification from someone close to the Italian legal system), and I tend not to make declarative statements unless I am very confident that I'm correct.


Not necessarily: he could be saying that the evidence Mignini was presented with by the police was more than enough evidence to investigate them. Things like the 112 call, the missing sweatshirt, Raffaele's shoe print in Meredith's bedroom, Amanda's shoe print on the pillow, the kitchen knife, and the bra clasp. It all looked terribly convincing, and you can't really blame Mignini for investigating them; it's just that it all turned out to be either bogus or later discredited.

In terms of the calunnia, I think it really depends on how they explain the conviction in the motivations. If they conclude that while it was a result of pressure from the police, but not sufficient pressure to lead her to make the accusation, they could find her guilty of the calunnia without it having any impact on the murder charge.


It's entirely feasible in law that Knox could be acquitted on the murder charge (and even acquitted on a 530.1 no-evidence ruling) and convicted on the criminal slander charge. Just as it's entirely feasible in law that Knox could have been convicted for the murder but acquitted of the slander. The two charges are not in continuance, and are not linked. In fact, that will be the basis of one of the grounds of appeal by the defence to the Supreme Court: Massei incorrectly and improperly ruled that the charges should be considered linked, and tried together accordingly.

My view is that the defence stand a very good change of winning an appeal in the Supreme Court on the basis of the continuance issue and the mens rea issue. I think that if the slander charge goes back to the appeal court for a stand-alone retrial, the combination of Knox's own statements (which show her confusion and coded accusations of police coercion), interpreter Donnino's court testimony (which proves that she was part of a wider police tactic of convincing Knox that she had undergone traumatic amnesia) and Police Chief De Felice's now-infamous statement in the press conference of the 6th November (in which he clearly implied that the police knew, even before Knox entered the interrogation room late on the 5th November, that Knox, Sollecito and Lumumba had grouped up to commit the murder) will be sufficient to warrant an acquittal.

My opinion is also that Knox's defence team virtually ignored the criminal slander charge in Hellmann's court. I think this was probably a wise move: I think that the defence team wanted to ensure that all their focus and argument went towards acquittal on the murder charge, and that they also didn't want to risk deflecting attention on the murder charge by spending lots of time addressing the slander charge. I think that any proper, stand-alone trial of the slander charge, with defence lawyers exclusively focussed on challenging that single charge, will very likely result in a successful defence.
 
Yes, we have Massei report which endorses a theory of multiple attackers. This is one source to counter. But we have also Rudy's appeal, a conclusive report from another court, that is another piece of evidence for the multiple attacker theory, so we have two sources. To this, the defence needs a counter move. Aviello and Alessi bring in suspicion that a second attacker might have been there who is not Raffaele.

Moreover, the Aviello and Alessi testimonies might take advantage from the fact that one element of evidence - a possible semen stain - was not used in the Rudy trial and could in some way be exploited to emphasize a possible alternative scenario.

The reasoning about the SC ruling, I don't understand what you mean: the SC decision is a necessary step in order to use the Rudy verdict. But the Cassazione cannot modify the scenario; they could have rejected Rudy's appeal sentence and could have ordered a new trial, but not modify the conclusions. In this aspect, they could only repeat what the lowr court said, or in alternative reject the verdict. But not change the scenario for Rudy's conviction. Their acceptance of the verdict means that the lower court had worked properly in the evidence assessment, and thus the scenario they worked out is accepted.


Your argument is nonsense. The defence teams do not need to "counter" either the Massei verdict or any of the rulings in Guede's trials. Hellmann's court considered the case entirely independently from any of those rulings: it formed its decisions and verdict solely and entirely upon the evidence and testimony placed before it, with the assistance of the arguments made before it by the various parties. At no point in the Hellmann trial (and at no point in the future) did/will the defence lawyers face the prospect of having to overturn or nullify any of the findings of fact of the Massei court or any of Guede's courts.

The Supreme Court needs to satisfy itself that Hellmann's court reached its verdict properly and lawfully, that it did not reach conclusions that are unsupportable by the evidence (since that would be a breach in law), and that it generally applied the law and criminal code properly and appropriately. If all that is the case, then the acquittals on the murder charges will be confirmed.
 
1) Are you suggesting that Mignini was not given a fair trial? Do you realise the implications of what you are suggesting? Do you realise what a massive accusation you would be making about the Florentine judicial system? Do you think that might get you into trouble?

2) How supportive of Mignini/Comodi was the lead prosecutor in the appeal trial, Giancarlo Costagliola? Why did he apparently play almost no role whatsoever in the entire appeal trial? Why did he seemingly make no public statement after the verdict?

3) Amanda Knox is not a convicted liar. Please stop repeating that untruth. You ought to know far better.

Well, Amanda Knox indeed is a convicted liar. Her conviction is not definitive. But may become definitive if the defence doesn't recurr to Cassazione within 130 days from today. However in Italian we use the normally term "condannato" which means convicted, even for people who are not definitively convicted, and we also use "condannato definitivamente" to indicate that appeals have exhausted. The legal effects of conviction apply when the conviction becomes definitive.

About 2), Costagliola was entirely supportive. He unfold his arguments for 2-3 hours. But the term supportive may be misleading since Costagliola, Mignini and Comodi in fact divided their task and dealt each with a different part. Costagliola dealt with the topic of "rinnovazione dibattimantale" which means, the topic he discussed was the topics of the actual appeal sessions. He was above all very thorough in defending the credibility of Antonio Curatolo. His style is very meticulous and quotes a big number of details.
He also attacked Aviello and Alessi and dealt with other topics. But, what surprised me actually, was that he also made long introductory speeches about legal principles. Something unusual. He spoke about a "media attack" (meaning Italian media) very aggressively, and also emphasized the role of the Procura Generale as a "non adversarial" organ. Costagliola was not leading the accusation and the dealing with evidence in the case, but he was in fact a leader in the topics discussied in the appeal hearing. He was focused in showing that the defendants have lost in the court discussion in the appeal round, in the part about the "new" evidence.

The point 1) is very serious. Yes I am suggesting Mignini was not given a fair trial. The issue is serious, but the Italian system had also more serious issues than this one. This one is not concluded, I think by its size it can be controlled, and I think the system will handle it and will manage to bring it back within the boundaries of legitimacy without creating a vulnus to institutions.
 
Well, Amanda Knox indeed is a convicted liar. Her conviction is not definitive. But may become definitive if the defence doesn't recurr to Cassazione within 130 days from today. However in Italian we use the normally term "condannato" which means convicted, even for people who are not definitively convicted, and we also use "condannato definitivamente" to indicate that appeals have exhausted. The legal effects of conviction apply when the conviction becomes definitive.

About 2), Costagliola was entirely supportive. He unfold his arguments for 2-3 hours. But the term supportive may be misleading since Costagliola, Mignini and Comodi in fact divided their task and dealt each with a different part. Costagliola dealt with the topic of "rinnovazione dibattimantale" which means, the topic he discussed was the topics of the actual appeal sessions. He was above all very thorough in defending the credibility of Antonio Curatolo. His style is very meticulous and quotes a big number of details.
He also attacked Aviello and Alessi and dealt with other topics. But, what surprised me actually, was that he also made long introductory speeches about legal principles. Something unusual. He spoke about a "media attack" (meaning Italian media) very aggressively, and also emphasized the role of the Procura Generale as a "non adversarial" organ. Costagliola was not leading the accusation and the dealing with evidence in the case, but he was in fact a leader in the topics discussied in the appeal hearing. He was focused in showing that the defendants have lost in the court discussion in the appeal round, in the part about the "new" evidence.

The point 1) is very serious. Yes I am suggesting Mignini was not given a fair trial. The issue is serious, but the Italian system had also more serious issues than this one. This one is not concluded, I think by its size it can be controlled, and I think the system will handle it and will manage to bring it back within the boundaries of legitimacy without creating a vulnus to institutions.

Amanda Knox is perhaps the only person in Italy that is NOT a liar!

If a roomfull of people screamed at me "blue is yellow", "blue is yellow", "blue is yellow", "blue is yellow", "blue is yellow", "blue is yellow", "blue is yellow" for six hours, I would finally say OK, have it your way: "blue is yellow" and sign an agreement to such. Tests have shown that you can do that to almost anyone that doesn't have a lawyer present.

But that does NOT make you a liar!

Being misunderstood or having a bad interpreter also does not make you a liar.

When someone is misquoted at .org, who is the liar: the person being misquoted or the misquoter?

The one person in Italy that is NOT a liar is Amanda.
 
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Your argument is nonsense. The defence teams do not need to "counter" either the Massei verdict or any of the rulings in Guede's trials. Hellmann's court considered the case entirely independently from any of those rulings: it formed its decisions and verdict solely and entirely upon the evidence and testimony placed before it, with the assistance of the arguments made before it by the various parties. At no point in the Hellmann trial (and at no point in the future) did/will the defence lawyers face the prospect of having to overturn or nullify any of the findings of fact of the Massei court or any of Guede's courts.

The Supreme Court needs to satisfy itself that Hellmann's court reached its verdict properly and lawfully, that it did not reach conclusions that are unsupportable by the evidence (since that would be a breach in law), and that it generally applied the law and criminal code properly and appropriately. If all that is the case, then the acquittals on the murder charges will be confirmed.

That's not entirely correct. The Hellmann court does not "depend on" another court ruling. But, a sentencing report validated by Cassazione is, by Italian law, a valid piece of evidence to be used in a trial. It is technically a piece of circumstantial evidence.
So the events are not entirely independent.

The Cassazione is obviously a court of legitimacy and thus does not deal directly with points of facts. But the Cassazione does not consider the validity of Hellman's decision alone: it assesses consistency of the the whole process from the beginning, including lower court acts and findings. All this material is used to make asessments about their use and argumantation about the evidence. The application of the procedure code and the logical issues are a predominant topic.
 
If you want such a definition, suit yourself. But in this circumstances I don't see any evidence to call it "false" alibis :)

Really? That's rather poor (and frankly bizarre) piece of evidence, I'd say :)

Didn't they rather call them for the "alibi"?

Aviello and Alessi bring in false testimonies. There is no doubt their accounts are false. This fact, alone, can be considered evidence against the suspects because innocent defendants don't attempt to bring false accounts in teir defense. It happens that a topic in these testimonies is the defendants alibi, that is the argument of their "not being there". What those defendents are called to say, is that Sollecito and Knox were not there. But at the same time their purpose is also to bring in some suspicion that there could be a scenario with multiple attackers other than Sollecito and Knox.
 
Yes, we have Massei report which endorses a theory of multiple attackers. This is one source to counter. But we have also Rudy's appeal, a conclusive report from another court, that is another piece of evidence for the multiple attacker theory, so we have two sources. To this, the defence needs a counter move. Aviello and Alessi bring in suspicion that a second attacker might have been there who is not Raffaele.

Moreover, the Aviello and Alessi testimonies might take advantage from the fact that one element of evidence - a possible semen stain - was not used in the Rudy trial and could in some way be exploited to emphasize a possible alternative scenario.

The reasoning about the SC ruling, I don't understand what you mean: the SC decision is a necessary step in order to use the Rudy verdict. But the Cassazione cannot modify the scenario; they could have rejected Rudy's appeal sentence and could have ordered a new trial, but not modify the conclusions. In this aspect, they could only repeat what the lowr court said, or in alternative reject the verdict. But not change the scenario for Rudy's conviction. Their acceptance of the verdict means that the lower court had worked properly in the evidence assessment, and thus the scenario they worked out is accepted.


With respect, Machiavelli, this makes no sense.

In Rudy Guede's trial, neither Ms. Knox, Mr. Sollecito, nor their respective lawyers were parties or had any standing to cross-examine witnesses, call evidence, or make submissions, so it is not the case that the factual findings made by the court of first instance in Rudy Guede's trial are binding in any way, shape or form on the trials of Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito. It matters not at all that the Italian higher court found that Guede's trial was such that no legal errors were made that would entitle him to a reversal of his conviction. There is a vast difference between findings of fact based on the evidence proffered by the prosecution and the defence, and errors of law.

To contend that the higher court's confirmation of Rudy Guede's conviction in his separate trial somehow binds the trial judges in the trial of Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito as to findings of fact that were made in Guede's trial is incorrect, and demonstrates an egregious miscomprehension of the law.

When the trials of multiple accused persons are separated, there is always the risk of inconsistent verdicts insofar as factual findings are concerned because the evidence presented in one trial may be very different than the evidence presented in another. This is well known and recognized, but it does not serve to make the factual findings made in the trial of one of the accused binding upon the court hearing the evidence in the trial of the other accused. To suggest otherwise would be perverse, since the accused in the later trial were not parties to the earlier trial.

The reality in this case is that it was in Rudy Guede's best interests to promote the idea of multiple attackers, in order to try to minimize his own actions, and it was simultaneously in the best interests of the prosecution in Rudy Guede's trial to promote the idea of multiple attackers because the police and prosecution had already nailed their colours to the multiple attacker mast by prematurely jailing Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito (and Mr. Lumumba) and had long since wed themselves to a particular scenario that they set out to prove come hell or high water. But none of that makes any of the factual findings made in Rudy Guede's case - at any level - binding upon those hearing the case of Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito, because they were not parties to that trial, had no representation at that trial, had no right of cross-examination at that trial, and no right to call evidence or make submissions at that trial.
 
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