Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Malfie Henpox]

This is off topic Malfie. There was a relevant thread about this thread. You can write there or start a new one.

The whole post wasn't off topic!

I quite clearly stated I though Knox was not guilty in the very sentence before the one you chose to quote.

 

[Brooktrout]

The most interesting point of Kikkomani's story new story is that his black Golf was parked at the cottage. This is the first I have seen of any lead as to whose car was parked in that driveway. Another example of the total incompence of the Perugin ploice forces.

Wouldn't this mean that the strange blogger who was always going on about Albanian drug involvement was....right? Cue the four horsemen!

 

[Almo]

7 pages in 24 hours?!? Somehow, deep down, I knew that her acquittal would not stop the flood.

 

[Onofarar]

Between which hours do you believe that Amanda could have been consuming so much alcohol ('binge drinking') in order for your possible theory to carry any weight?

Exactly, and since Raf's friend Johnna Popovic (spelling?) saw them both at 8:40 and made no reference to their appearing "blotto" or otherwise seriously inebriated your theory to hold water must have them "chug" a lot of alcohol in a very short time (or do likewise with drugs) then in that state get over to the cottage (without being seen) and kill Meredith by 9:30 or so. Hmmm - don't think so...

I think the PG poster you responded to also made a big deal about the cell phones being turned off. Well ... I must be a murderer since I often do the same thing when about to enjoy some pleasurable time in bed with my wife.

 

[Kaosium]

Madness. Total, utter madness.

Yes. It was hilarious. And once again is indicative of why I made a comment initially.

But let's get this straight once and for all shall we, as people seem to keep ignoring it:

I do not think Knox is guilty. I do think this thread has descended into madness.

Then perhaps you could make an argument and not a judgment? At this instant your perception skills seem incapable of noting the nuances in posts and you've displayed virtually no knowledge of the case, thus how could we be expected to analyze your opinion?

Just saying it doesn't make it true.

 

[Diocletus]

I find this very interesting:

The exception to German rule of no mandatory exclusions is section 136a of the Code of Criminal Procedure (CCP). This section excludes any confessions obtained by ill-treatment, induced fatigue, physical interference, administration of drugs, torment, deception or hypnosis.[11] The police are prohibited from using such methods and the court will exclude any confession made in an interrogation that uses such techniques, even if the confession itself was voluntary.

They had me there for a minute, because I had read it to say "and hypnosis." But since it says "or hypnosis", then I guess it's pretty clear that Knox's "confession" would be excluded in Germany. http://defensewiki.ibj.org/index.php/Confessions

Another interesting observation is that in the US and some other nations, the police must prove that the confession is voluntary, but in other nations, it appears that the defendant claiming involuntariness must prove the claim of involuntariness.

I'll make a wild-ass-guess that Hellmann will simply say that Knox didn't sufficiently prove involuntariness. To which I say "duh"--she had no lawyer and the cops got rid of the tapes.

 

[Kaosium]

7 pages in 24 hours?!? Somehow, deep down, I knew that her acquittal would not stop the flood.

Almo, there's three more entirely separate trials regarding this case, which still hasn't been confirmed by the Supreme Court and won't be heard until next year at the earliest.

 

[Malfie Henpox]

Then perhaps you could make an argument and not a judgment? At this instant your perception skills seem incapable of noting the nuances in posts and you've displayed virtually no knowledge of the case, thus how could we be expected to analyze your opinion?

Just saying it doesn't make it true.

My argument is that this thread has become out of hand. Your post saying you wanted to 'fix' me is my evidence. Amongst others by others.

And now you insult my perceptive skill. Despite seemingly missing the point that I agree with you. Just not the delivery of it.

I don't require you to analyse my opinion, thanks. But I do think some of you should analyse your behaviour. And let's drop this 'vindicated' talk, shall we? You're just people making comments on the internet.

The mantra 'irrational, irrational' does not apply when no one here is wrong. I merely expressed a concern with the way people respond to each others here. And I was attacked for it. It's funny. Tragic, but funny.

Now, unless you can respond without vitriol, this discussion is over.

 

[RWVBWL]

Exactly, and since Raf's friend Johnna Popovic (spelling?) saw them both at 8:40 and made no reference to their appearing "blotto" or otherwise seriously inebriated your theory to hold water must have them "chug" a lot of alcohol in a very short time (or do likewise with drugs) then in that state get over to the cottage (without being seen) and kill Meredith by 9:30 or so. Hmmm - don't think so...

I think the PG poster you responded to also made a big deal about the cell phones being turned off. Well ... I must be a murderer since I often do the same thing when about to enjoy some pleasurable time in bed with my wife.

Good onya, Onofarar!
I can remember being ah, interupted, more than a few times by thtat darn cell phone ringin' while bein' intimately involved with my last gal, a Mom...
Turn them things off!
Esh,
RW

 

[Grinder]

Hi Grinder,
I wrote this the other day:

Barbie Nadeau writing, on page 162 of 'Angel Face':
"Later toxicology reports showed that she may have been very drunk, but the prosecution wrote those off as bad forensics - they said her body had not been stored properly, so the blood alchol levels were due to fermentation, not intoxication."
RW

There was a bad reading that had drunk as a skunk but they indicate she had had a drink

From Massei - He [Lalli]stated that the results of the toxicological analyses revealed the absence of psychotropic drugs and a blood alcohol level of 0.43 grams/litre.

Later in report - He could not indicate why the analysis of the blood had given a particularly high -this part wouldn't cut and paste - reading close to coma the only explanation would be the -
the exchange of samples; a contamination with the passage of alcohol to the sample,
taking place when the exhibit was in the refrigerator.
a simple hypothesis:
the exchange of samples; a contamination with the passage of alcohol to the sample,
taking place when the exhibit was in the refrigerator.
He indicated the percentage of alcohol detected by Dr. Lalli and equal to 0.43 as
compatible with the consumption of one beer or of one glass of wine. That there was
then found to be zero in the gastric content could be explained by the fact of
evaporation or by the fact of the digestion of the alcohol.

 

[Grinder]

That forum is becoming a fascinating case study in a whole host of important areas in individual and group psychology. I am not being facetious when I suggest that it is worthy of serious academic study in and of itself.

Becoming????

 

[Grinder]

The Massei report itself points out that phone records cannot show whether a phone was turned on or off. The only reason the police know Amanda's phone was turned off was because she told them so. There is no record of Raffaele ever saying his phone was turned off at any time. If it were turned off, it is unlikely he would have turned it on around 6 am (when the delayed text from his father came in) instead of just leaving it off until he got up for the day.

Yes that's what I thought. In addition had they been planning this they could have sent out text messages before leaving for the murder and hoped that replies would come in while they killed her. Then back to the flat respond to the texts a little late because they were busy

 

[Grinder]

Wouldn't this mean that the strange blogger who was always going on about Albanian drug involvement was....right? Cue the four horsemen!

Are you talking about LMT or something like that?

LMT wasn't alone although I was posting anonymously - I agreed with part of LMT's theories in particular the Albanian connection always seemed worth checking.

Koko's story never made any sense. He was there. Did the police check for all cell activity that night in the neighborhood.

 

[Justinian2]

Most famous Italians today:

1) Amanda Knox
2) Pope
3) Galileo
4) Ferrari

Just kidding. Amanda's not Italian.

 

[RWVBWL]

The Kercher Family...

<snip>
Incidentally, I did not call the Kercher's stupid if you were referring to me in one of your initial posts, I called others not stupid for instantly realizing the Massei Report was bilge and the conviction unlikely to be confirmed, mainly due to the fact two were lawyers and the other knew the case well enough. The Kerchers never had a chance in my view, they were counseled by Mignini in the beginning, they hired Maresca, they read the papers that wanted 'Foxy Knoxy' to burn, and according to one of John Kercher's articles they're aware of the 'online tribute' which could only be TJMK or PMF, which they might possibly read. It is quite natural and absolutely saddening and maddening that they might act irrationally with that information combination regarding the death of Meredith.
<snip>

Hello Kaosium, and others,
How's it? Good I hope!
I am going to use a snip from your post above to bring up something, something tht's been bothering me for awhile.


I've watched many here discuss the Kercher/prosecutor/lawyer interactions
and have seen some lame remarks brought forth regarding the Kercher Family.

I've never stepped into this mess, just didn't feel like it.
I do now though, but I don't wanna argue about it, please, just keep this in mind.

Let's put this in a different perspective,
I hope that you have a sister in your family, as I have 3,
for maybe you will see my point.

If any of my sisters were stabbed to death in her throat, had her clothes removed, she was sexually assaulted, and was found laying there dead in her own bedroom, her life's blood drained out from the terrible hole in her neck, her blood surrounding her face, lying naked except for a quilt covering her when she was found, her legs open and her vagina there for the cops to see, I would be simply LIVID!

I would wanna kill some MoFo! How dare some scumbag defile my sister like that!
The anger inside me would be tremendous. My hatred, boiling mad...


Wouldn't it be for you too?

When the cops finally found the alleged culprits,
wouldn't you too believe them? That's what they do, they solve crimes, convict criminals.
And they do it well, almost all of the time. You would not believe them?

I mean, come on, who amongst us normal folks, we who are not lawyers, goes to the cops for help, and then afterwards does not believe them to be telling the truth? No one. And even if you did, what would you do, find other cops to investigate the crime? Right...

I can not ever imagining the Kercher Family disbelieving the cops, their investigation, their own lawyer, the judges, and newspaper articles enough to then, at some point, decide to try and dig deep into the matters themselves.
Like we did here at JREF, IIP, and elsewhere...

So what that John Kercher wrote some critical articles,
and then times them perfectly to be published right before critical courtroom sessions.
Like you wouldn't have done so too if your sister had been murdered, you who believed the cops, the prosecution, and your own lawyer. You too would not have been concerned whatsoever with the culprits, who were sitting in prison, awaiting their fate. If I was a journalist, I would have been writing the same also. My sister is DEAD!

So what that the Kercher Family sued the alleged culprits for $$$,
I would have too, as you would have also. And you know it!
Show me any amongst us who would have been concerned about the accused persons, their families, their banks accounts if that were your sister laying in her coffin that was then carried to the cemetary to be buried. There is no one who would have felt any concern for the accused whatsoever, I feel.


In humble respect, I ask you,
Come on folks, lay of the Kercher Family already!!!

Thanks,
Randy

ETA:
PS-I'm not lookin' to get into an argument about this, nor a debate.
It's simply something that has been bothering me for awhile,
so I needed to get it off my chest.
Please keep these thoughts in mind,
Peace, RW

 

[Grinder]

Mach it seems you play a game of legal rules when handy and slip into what happened at other times.

Here in US football we have a method of checking on field rulings with video. The coach may request a review but must do it before the next play is started. The coach is limited to the number of challenges therefore he weighs whether to challenge or not. Sometimes they don't challenge but replays show the judges made a mistake.

You seem to argue that if the defense missed their timely challenge that we should just accept the bad (DNA work). You may be right about the technicality but not about the forensic work.

This is my greatest frustration with the debate over this technicality. The truth should be sought in a trial and if some timing technicality is missed, so what?

In football we just argue about it and wait until the next game. This is not football and there isn't a next game (life).

It would be nice if all here worked to illuminate the truth.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

ethanol

There was a bad reading that had drunk as a skunk but they indicate she had had a drink

From Massei - He [Lalli]stated that the results of the toxicological analyses revealed the absence of psychotropic drugs and a blood alcohol level of 0.43 grams/litre.

Later in report - He could not indicate why the analysis of the blood had given a particularly high -this part wouldn't cut and paste - reading close to coma the only explanation would be the -
the exchange of samples; a contamination with the passage of alcohol to the sample,
taking place when the exhibit was in the refrigerator.
a simple hypothesis:
the exchange of samples; a contamination with the passage of alcohol to the sample,
taking place when the exhibit was in the refrigerator.
He indicated the percentage of alcohol detected by Dr. Lalli and equal to 0.43 as
compatible with the consumption of one beer or of one glass of wine. That there was
then found to be zero in the gastric content could be explained by the fact of
evaporation or by the fact of the digestion of the alcohol.

Grinder,

I certainly don't know the details of the test in question, but I can offer a few thoughts. Meredith had been out drinking the night before into the wee hours. Ethanol is metabolized over the course of several hours, so (let's say) 16 hours seems like it might be enough time to be essentially zero. However, even when ethanol is oxidized to acetaldehyde, it is still detectable in certain kinds of tests. The acetaldehyde forms a Schiff's base with lysine residues within proteins such as hemoglobin that can be observed by high performance liquid chromatography.

 

[Machiavelli]

So you trust Mignini and not Amanda?

Aside from the neverending series of lies that she told, do you think I should trust a person who has just been convicted for calunnia?

What about the Knox family?

Are you kidding?

What about Guede?

It's difficult to trust someone who doesn't speak.

Do you think a famous profiler maligned Guede by suggesting he may have the profile of a serial killer? Is Guede, in the words of Mignini, "A poor black man"

I think the famous profiler should be sued, had he been in Italy.

 

[Machiavelli]

No it wouldn't. All he has to say is that Raf and Amanda have an alibi, and that Amanda improperly caved in to pressure to falsely accuse Patrick. The issue for the Supreme Court is going to be how much "pressure" was enough "pressure" to excuse the accusation.

An alibi? If they had an alibi, do you think thay would have called Aviello and Alessi to attempt to provide them with a false alibi?

 

[codyjuneau]

This is what I wrote over at injusticeinperugia.org:

Raffaele's sister spoke. A very dignified woman - spoke of how Raffaele taught them all a lesson in integrity - how Raffaele never abandoned Amanda, how he preferred to be unjustly condemned to a life sentence than try to extricate himself from Amanda's situation. I totally agree with Raffaele's aunt!

Raffaele's father spoke also, at length. Also a very dignified man. He criticised the prosecution. He told viewers how disgusted he was that the interrogation of his son was not recorded, with the excuse of lack of funds given by the PM - he reiterated this point several times. Good on him!

The priest at Amanda's prison spoke. He was fighting back the tears. He clearly knew Amanda to be innocent, and a very nice person.

This is one of the reasons the prosecution were desperate to keep Raffaele and Amanda in jail. R&A and their families were essentially voiceless hostages with no credibility while in jail.

Now they will have a voice. Especially Amanda and her family who are protected by freedom of speech laws.

Now we have Raffaele talking. Amanda will be talking. Kokomani is starting to talk. Will Rudy start talking now that Kokomani does? We may even see the bomb threat hoax phone call and broken down car come into play.

Is it just a coincidence that so many people suddenly show up on this forum to create pages of useless noise and distractions with the same old talking points and accusations?

The quickest way to the truth is to investigate the investigation. I hope that the honest and honorable Italian police that investigated and charged Mignini the first time are working on it. Could that have been the lead prosecutor's real role? If nothing else his observations and testimony could be very useful. Find the truth. Restore Italian honor.