Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Antony said:
PMF.org is offline: "Server currently undergoing maintenance"

Hmmm.
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Ominous. The Machine's sources tell me to expect a slight reduction in posts during this time.

I did see where Fiona had indicated she accepted the court's decision before it went down.
 
Katody Matrass said:
The court went far beyond reasonable doubt. They explicitly stated their belief the charges were false.
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So, very much what we've been saying, and very much what all the messages coming from Hellmann were during this part of the process. The only blot is Amanda's conviction for the defamation of Lumumba (which seems to have caused confusion by being announced first). Is it possible she will appeal that?
I feel sorry for the Kercher family left sitting there stunned by the scum Maresca and his buddies from the prosecution.
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This is what was being said on PMF.net, as well - for different reasons. It seems that the Mignini gang is determined to take their ludicrous case all the way to the Supreme Court, so the Kerchers' ordeal will continue. We should all feel very sorry for them, but to an extent they have allowed their own situation to become what it has by going along with this prosecution. It's to be hoped that they will ultimately get to see the truth.
I wish all the best to Amanda and Raffaele. I wish they find some peace, recover and heal from the psychological wounds they were dealt. I wish they rebuild their lives and find happiness.
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A great day, but not one for celebration.
 
The Kerchers seem to feel their daughter has been forgotten in all of this and I think they are so wrong. I feel so badly for them and their loss of a sister and daughter.

I cannot help but wonder though just how much they have really been told, how accurate they're interpreter has been, how accurately the translation of things like the C-V report were told to them.
 
LondonJohn said:
And here is a very important thing indeed:

I have just listened to the verdicts again, in the original Italian and in a translation. Hellmann, in reading the verdict, said the following (my bolding):



This would appear to suggest to me that Hellmann was explicitly stating that his court did not believe that Knox and Sollecito had anything to do with the murder (or any staging or theft). He did not have to say anything more than announce the acquittal: I think it is highly significant that he attached those additional words. I suspect that we will subsequently find out (through the motivations document and other sources) that the verdicts were 8-0 for acquittal, and that the court indeed concluded that neither Knox nor Sollecito had anything to do with the murder of Meredith Kercher.

I hope that some people in the international media realise what Hellmann actually said during the acquittal, and that it helps quash arguments along the lines of "well, they did it, but their lawyers managed to just raise enough reasonable doubt to get them off".
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Per non aver commesso il fatto

Clander at PMF knew what it meant, the Motivations ought to be much more interesting for us to read. I think I'm going to enjoy that experience. I think you mentioned something about an acquittal document being different than a guilty one, in one respect I would expect size: it won't be 400 pages.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
And now for the recap.

Point #1) When you see a cockamamy charge involving a Satanic ritual murder, unless it's a guy like admitted Satin worshiper, Richard Ramerez, critical thinking demands one consider a prosecutor high on woo juice is more likely than two people with no history of being whack jobs actually committing murder for the thrill of it.

Point #2) Just because one claims to have DNA evidence does not automatically mean there really is objective scientific evidence in a case. You still need to use good critical thinking skills.

Point #3) Juries are not all critical thinkers and should not be presumed to be correctly deciding a case.

Point #4) The evidence is clear that false confessions are not hard for police to obtain. All it takes is badgering and enough time.

Point #5) Not all people convicted of serious crimes are actually guilty. Betsy Ross did not sew the first US flag and George WA did not chop down a cherry tree. We've been raised in the US on a lot of myths. As adults it's time to recognize that fact.
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Thank you for starting this discussion. Point one is just too funny. LOL.
 
Well, I'll be...if I were an AK supporter, I'd feel pretty damned vindicated right now. I still have some rather significant personal doubts as to whether or not AK is truly innocent (although at this point, I think it's more along the lines of "she knew more than she was willing to admit" rather than "she did it"). But clearly the court feels that at a minimum, there's reasonable doubt -- and for what it's worth, so do I at this point. And that's enough for me to be glad she's going home to her family.

Gotta hand it to you, you never gave up even in the face of outright derison (and yeah, I joined in on occasion, mea culpa and all that). I only hope that a cause I feel as strongly about as you do someday comes to such an unambiguous optimal fruition.

I'm kind of surprised at my reaction right now, because I'm actually feeling good about this. Maybe because if you have to be proven wrong about something, the fact that a young woman goes home infinitely outweighs any personal embarassment I might feel about it.
 
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Steft50 said:
The Kerchers seem to feel their daughter has been forgotten in all of this and I think they are so wrong. I feel so badly for them and their loss of a sister and daughter.

I cannot help but wonder though just how much they have really been told, how accurate they're interpreter has been, how accurately the translation of things like the C-V report were told to them.
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The number of times I've heard them ask recently, including reportedly in their statement released after the verdict, that they 'didn't understand' how the 'evidence' could have changed in the interim suggested they were probably very poorly served by counsel.
 
Stellafane said:
Well, I'll be...if I were an AK supporter, I'd feel pretty damned vindicated right now. I still have some rather significant personal doubts as to whether or not AK is truly innocent (although at this point, I think it's more along the lines of "she knew more than she was willing to admit" rather than "she did it"). But clearly the court feels that at a minimum, there's reasonable doubt -- and for what it's worth, so do I at this point. And that's enough for me to be glad she's going home to her family.

Gotta hand it to you, you never gave up even in the face of outright derison (and yeah, I joined in on occasion, mea culpa and all that). I only hope that a cause I feel as strongly about as you do someday comes to such an unambiguous optimal fruition.

I'm kind of surprised at my reaction right now, because I'm actually feeling good about this. Maybe because if you have to be proven wrong about something, the fact that a young woman goes home infinitely outweighs any personal embarassment I might feel about it.
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A very graceful post, worthy of a decent, rational poster. Thank you for it.
 
That Nick Pisa story is worse than I thought, apparently somebody just made something up:

Prosecutors were delighted with the verdict and said that 'justice has been done' although they said on a 'human factor it was sad two young people would be spending years in jail'.

Following the verdict Knox and Sollecito were taken out of court escorted by prison guards and into a waiting van which took her back to her cell at Capanne jail near Perugia and him to Terni jail, 60 miles away.

Both will be put on a suicide watch for the next few days as psychological assessments are made on each of them but this is usual practice for long term prisoners."
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Wow, that is bad.

http://www.malcolmcoles.co.uk/blog/daily-mail-guuilt/
 
There is a pic of her in the car leaving the jail at national post.com. I cannot link yet b/c I am a longtime lurker vs. poster. This is a great day though...
 
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Look at this. It's from .net:

"Yeah, Judge hellmann can be thanked for that.

He has a history of performing hatchet jobs on convictions. I don't believe his being assigned to this case was 'luck if the draw'..."

"Neither were the independent experts in my opinion."

This is beyond stupid. At first trial they praised Italian justice system, now what they're saying is basically that it sucks, big time.
 
Stellafane said:
Well, I'll be...if I were an AK supporter, I'd feel pretty damned vindicated right now. I still have some rather significant personal doubts as to whether or not AK is truly innocent (although at this point, I think it's more along the lines of "she knew more than she was willing to admit" rather than "she did it"). But clearly the court feels that at a minimum, there's reasonable doubt -- and for what it's worth, so do I at this point. And that's enough for me to be glad she's going home to her family.

Gotta hand it to you, you never gave up even in the face of outright derison (and yeah, I joined in on occasion, mea culpa and all that). I only hope that a cause I feel as strongly about as you do someday comes to such an unambiguous optimal fruition.

I'm kind of surprised at my reaction right now, because I'm actually feeling good about this. Maybe because if you have to be proven wrong about something, the fact that a young woman goes home infinitely outweighs any personal embarassment I might feel about it.
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LondonJohn said:
A very graceful post, worthy of a decent, rational poster. Thank you for it.
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Very well said, both of you.
 
snook1 said:
Look at this. It's from .net:

"Yeah, Judge hellmann can be thanked for that.

He has a history of performing hatchet jobs on convictions. I don't believe his being assigned to this case was 'luck if the draw'..."

"Neither were the independent experts in my opinion."

This is beyond stupid. At first trial they praised Italian justice system, now what they're saying is basically that it sucks, big time.
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Typical LOSERS.

Extremely pathetic people.
 
RoseMontague said:
That Nick Pisa story is worse than I thought, apparently somebody just made something up:



Wow, that is bad.

http://www.malcolmcoles.co.uk/blog/daily-mail-guuilt/
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Oh dear, Mr Pisa. Some goon at the Mail pressed the wrong button, and you were exposed as having invented two separate pieces based on either acquittal or guilty verdicts. All that lovely detail, including totally bogus and fabricated quotes too! You must be very proud of your exposure, Mr Pisa!

It's not uncommon for hacks to engage in this sort of behaviour: there are legion examples of newspapers publishing articles which describe (often in extreme detail) events which actually didn't happen. It's just a small window into the sadly common practices employed by most of the mid-market and red-top newspapers in the UK.

As a small (but OT) illustration, there was one notorious (and sad) example of a similar thing that happened around 20 years ago: the well-known UK comedian Frankie Howerd died (suddenly), and as is usually the custom, the media went on the hunt for tributes from his contemporary comedians. One of the highest-profile tributes came from the comedian Benny Hill, who was quoted as expressing extreme sadness at Howerd's death. However, the quote had been fabricated and supplied by Hill's agent, who had been unable to reach his client. It then turned out that Benny Hill had very probably predeceased Frankie Howerd - he had been lying dead undiscovered in his flat for several days before he was finally found. It thus turned out that an already-dead comedian paid tribute to another dead comedian......
 
TrueJustice is struggling to get up, but there was this headline: "Knox And Sollecito Declared Not Guilty Apparently With Some Booing Outside The Courtroom".

There is a rumor that some of the booing was from street clothes police. Just a rumor.
 
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