Vaccines: how do I talk to my anti-vac wife about it?

[Mudcat]

I think for me it's more like, if it ain't broke don't fix it.fix it anyway, that is known as maintenance.

Fixed that for you, hope it exposes the fundamental flaw in your theory.

 

[RationalVetMed]

Hi, folks; can you offer me some help? The trouble is that my wife and I disagree on the importance of vaccines: I think children should be vaccinated, and she thinks vaccines are deadly.

I tried reading the whole of the thread then lost the will to live so apologies if I'm saying stuff which has already been covered but I have to agree with those posters who have said it is unlikely that you will ever change your wife's views. She obviously has deeply entrenched suspicion of science and technology and the more you try to persuade her otherwise the worse that suspicion will become - perverse but that's how it seems to work.

I also agree with truethat that showing her sites like this and quackwatch will definitely be counterproductive - they are great when 'preaching to the converted' and informing sceptics but they will only harden the opinion of people like your wife.

As a vet I can help you with the cat leukaemia (FeLV) story though (apologies if Rolfe has chimed in about this already, Rolfe is the expert here and if there are any contradictions believe Rolfe, not me!). In cats only one third to a half of leukaemias are caused by the FeLV virus, the rest just arise spontaneously as most other cancers do. So having an FeLV vaccination will reduce your cat's risk of contracting the tumour but it is not a guarantee that it will never get it. To my mind the extremely good safety profile of the vaccine means it is worth giving in order to benefit from this reduction, even if the 'cover' isn't perfect.

Hope that helps and good luck.

Yuri

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Hi, folks; can you offer me some help? The trouble is that my wife and I disagree on the importance of vaccines: I think children should be vaccinated, and she thinks vaccines are deadly. She so strongly opposes vaccines that she has said she would leave me before she agreed to vaccinate our children. She has one child from a former spouse, and she's pregnant with our first right now.

Every time I talk to her about vaccines, she tells me stories about how vaccines are at best worthless and at worst fatal - that the incidence of disease goes down due to public sanitation improvements, not vaccination campaigns. She's read a lot of stuff and tells me about all the anti-vac stuff she's read, but it's always a, "I read a (book / report / study / article) by this (guy / doctor / magazine / health group / researcher) that shows vaccines (cause autism / induce fits of paralysis / injure the child / kill the child / other bad stuff)."

She even pulls this story out about how she took one of her cats who up until this point had been completely healthy to get vaccinated for feline leukemia and who after the vaccination came down with feline leukemia and died thus proving that vaccines are a fraud. It's even worse because her mother is of the same opinion and the two reinforce each other's beliefs.

I don't know how to talk to her about this; I've done my reading on JREF and Quackwatch and shown her the reports that so many anti-vac reports are bogus (or the doctors who wrote them are discredited), but she doesn't hear any of it. She's totally convinced that vaccines are dangerous and no matter how I try to broach the subject she gets really hostile and shuts down the conversation.

I feel like I'm in a really tough position because from what I've read I believe vaccines to be really important and safe, but from what my wife has read she believes they're the biggest and most dangerous scam of the 20th century. We both love our children, but I feel like she's the one putting them in harm's way. Can anybody here recommend conversation starters, sound arguments, or other methods of helping her come off the anti-vac wagon?

No. Don't get your kids vaccinated if you value your marriage more than the tiny risk of your children being seriously harmed or dying from a vaccine-preventable disease.

Try to make sure your kids are better (i.e. more reliably) educated than your wife is on the subject of vaccination. Maybe they'll choose to be vaccinated as adults.

 

[RationalVetMed]

No. Don't get your kids vaccinated if you value your marriage more than the tiny risk of your children being seriously harmed or dying from a vaccine-preventable disease.

Try to make sure your kids are better (i.e. more reliably) educated than your wife is on the subject of vaccination. Maybe they'll choose to be vaccinated as adults.

Sensible and pragmatic advice as ever, it's education, not confrontation which will make the difference - cheers Ivor.

Yuri

(now wait for the usual slew of name calling and gratuitous insults )

 

[laca]

I still don't think you understand what I'm asking. I'm not debating you I just think we are having two different conversations.


Put more simply


What are the odds of a baby contrzcting an illness or having an adverse side effect from a vaccine?


What are the odds of a baby contracting an illness from an immigrant anywhere around the world or from someone IN the community based on the area in which the OP person lives?

That depends on such a great number of factors it's impossible to estimate. Why is it relevant at all?

The bolded for example. The lack of immunization caused 62.8% of the children to require hospitalization.

That's not what it says at all. Try to read for comprehension.

Well that's a bit weird of a statistic if you think about it. I would wager, THOUGH I AM PREPARED TO BE PROVEN WRONG, that most of those children were "hospitalized' because part of the reason they were not immunized is that they were children of illegal immigrants who often don't have access to proper prenatal and pediatric care when their children are little. And so they often use the hospital emergency rooms as their Primary Care Physician and go when they are actually seriously sick.

(And I'm totally pro immigrant so let's not derail there)

Right. Just like you're pro-vaccine...

It seems like these are suspect statements. So I'd like to see some more information that compares the number of children who use the herd immunity compared to the humber of children who get sick from vaccines.

And using the herd doesn't mean you live in a cult or are Amish etc. But someone who prefers holistic healing and lives among regular people .

Holistic healing? It feels good when one's first impressions start to materialize, that's for sure. Sorry, it's now almost impossible for me to see you as a rational person.

 

[Estellea]

Sensible and pragmatic advice as ever, it's education, not confrontation which will make the difference - cheers Ivor.

Yuri

(now wait for the usual slew of name calling and gratuitous insults )

The problem with this approach is that an infant will be left vulnerable to diseases for which they are at risk for the highest rates of complications. Also, do you honestly believe that children raised in that kind of environment will be open to education about their health choices?

Este

 

[Bob001]

... Don't get your kids vaccinated if you value your marriage more than the tiny risk of your children being seriously harmed or dying ...

I dunno. Once one spouse tells another "I will leave you if you don't do what I say," a door has opened (or closed). What happens if the unvaccinated child gets seriously ill, and husband and wife disagree about medical care ("I'm calling 911! No, don't, I'll just make some herbal tea!")? Is the risk really "tiny?" What about all the other decisions and compromises that marriage requires over the years? This couple needs formal counseling with a medical professional who is equipped to deal in detail with vaccination fears/misconceptions. And hubby needs to be prepared to protect himself and his child.

 

[RationalVetMed]

The problem with this approach is that an infant will be left vulnerable to diseases for which they are at risk for the highest rates of complications.

Yes, but short of using force and/or abducting the children they are going to remain unvaccinated whatever. And if force or deceit is used then that will simply confirm their mother's pre-conceptions about the untrustworthiness of the advocates of science. That's what I meant about pragmatic.

Also, do you honestly believe that children raised in that kind of environment will be open to education about their health choices?

Este

If they see themselves and their mother being treated with respect and the message is put across consistently and in a non-confrontational, non-judgemental way then, yes, it's possible.

Sometimes one must concede a battle in order to win the war.

Yuri

 

[Estellea]

Yes, but short of using force and/or abducting the children they are going to remain unvaccinated whatever. And if force or deceit is used then that will simply confirm their mother's pre-conceptions about the untrustworthiness of the advocates of science. That's what I meant about pragmatic.

I agree, which was why I was firmly against the father taking deceitful actions as was suggested by truethat. It is also the mother that is threatening abduction and divorce if she doesn't get her way. My suggestion was a reasonable compromise by discussing a very selective schedule.

If they see themselves and their mother being treated with respect and the message is put across consistently and in a non-confrontational, non-judgemental way then, yes, it's possible.

Sometimes one must concede a battle in order to win the war.

Or...
They see that tantrums, ultimatums and threats are a means to achieve your wants with no regard for anyone else. And around an round we go. Additionally, I'm sorry to say that I know the 'type' and she will be conditioning her children to believe that they are super speshul snowflakes with 'untainted bodies' and to distrust 'allopathic medicine' as much as she does. It's a really bad situation that, I'm afraid, extends far past vaccines.

Este

 

[Deetee]

Hi James.

I am a bit late to this threads, but have my own 2c worth to put in the ring. (I am an infectious diseases specialist and am a very strong proponent of vaccination, btw).

As others have said, if you wish to cause irreperable friction between you and your wife, then the way to do it is to start major arguments about healthcare for your kids. My advice is to steer a compromise course - suggest that DTaP and MMR (or single measles) are given, but concede that the others can be delayed/forgone.

Pertussis is not an uncommon disease, and exposure is quite possible in infants, who do very badly if they become infected. Vaccination is vital. Also ensure that you get your uptodate boosters if possible, including pertussis - this will provide a degree of protection.

If your unvaccinated child gets mumps, rubella, or chickepox infection then he will be unlikely to come to great harm. Meningitis or pneumonia infections are very unlikely events, so not having those vaccines is a calculated risk, but that means there is still a very small risk of getting a serious illness. Most kids who get rotavirus diarrhoea do fine - the risk without vaccine is a moderate one of getting a usually minor illness.

However, your post raises other concerns - what if your child does become ill - will your wife insist on CAM remedies rather than a proper medical assessment? What will her views be for other things, like choices of schooling, attitudes to your child's behavior, friends, watching TV/screens etc? If you disagree about some or all of these things then trouble lies ahead, even if the vax issue is resolved amicably.

Maybe you can buy her some books for Xmas, like Ben Goldacre's Badscience, or another book that promotes critical thinking and leads one into the rational view that there is ann abundance of evidence that vaccination is beneficial, not just for your own selves/child, but for everyone.

 

[Beth]

Hi Deetee. Good post.

However, your post raises other concerns - what if your child does become ill - will your wife insist on CAM remedies rather than a proper medical assessment? What will her views be for other things, like choices of schooling, attitudes to your child's behavior, friends, watching TV/screens etc? If you disagree about some or all of these things then trouble lies ahead, even if the vax issue is resolved amicably.

If you disagree about some or all of those things, then welcome to the world of parenting. If you can work out the vax issue amicably, it will improve your chances of being able to resolve whatever else you discover you disagree with your spouse about regarding childrearing.

Despite having planned our first child and discussing all such issues that had occurred to us, surprises were constantly arising. As kids grow up, issues you never thought about at all before, much less worked out in detail, arise and have to be dealt with.

Congratulations on the expected new arrival. I think Deetee gave excellent advice above. I hope you can work things out.

 

[godless dave]

Would you inject a milder version of HIV into your system to help you create what's needed to fight the infection?

Hell, yes I would.

Have you ever met anyone who had polio, Truethat? I have.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

No people prefer their personal reality over statistics. Even statistics are based on a segment of the population.

I have three sons, except for the few colds my oldest has had, none of them has ever been sick.

So consider, 17 years or lets make it 15, not one cold among three boys, not one flu, nothing. Not even when I got sick and was puking my guts out. None of them were sick.

Why?

Well if you are a scientist you might care why, but as a mom I am pretty interested in the fact that all of my friends who do give their kids amoxicillin have kids that are regularly sick.

That is logical.


OR, you have causation reversed, and your friend gave her children amoxicillin because they were sick a lot, NOT the other way around. Some people get sick more than others.

Antibiotic overuse is serious, but your argument is absurd.

 

[truethat]

Hi James.

I am a bit late to this threads, but have my own 2c worth to put in the ring. (I am an infectious diseases specialist and am a very strong proponent of vaccination, btw).

As others have said, if you wish to cause irreperable friction between you and your wife, then the way to do it is to start major arguments about healthcare for your kids. My advice is to steer a compromise course - suggest that DTaP and MMR (or single measles) are given, but concede that the others can be delayed/forgone.

Pertussis is not an uncommon disease, and exposure is quite possible in infants, who do very badly if they become infected. Vaccination is vital. Also ensure that you get your uptodate boosters if possible, including pertussis - this will provide a degree of protection.

If your unvaccinated child gets mumps, rubella, or chickepox infection then he will be unlikely to come to great harm. Meningitis or pneumonia infections are very unlikely events, so not having those vaccines is a calculated risk, but that means there is still a very small risk of getting a serious illness. Most kids who get rotavirus diarrhoea do fine - the risk without vaccine is a moderate one of getting a usually minor illness.

However, your post raises other concerns - what if your child does become ill - will your wife insist on CAM remedies rather than a proper medical assessment? What will her views be for other things, like choices of schooling, attitudes to your child's behavior, friends, watching TV/screens etc? If you disagree about some or all of these things then trouble lies ahead, even if the vax issue is resolved amicably.

Maybe you can buy her some books for Xmas, like Ben Goldacre's Badscience, or another book that promotes critical thinking and leads one into the rational view that there is ann abundance of evidence that vaccination is beneficial, not just for your own selves/child, but for everyone.

This is pretty much what I've been saying through the whole thread. That you aren't discussing the rights and wrongs of vaccination with your wife, you are talking about vaccinating ONE baby.

Most of the illnesses mentioned above, as I said before, the body can fight off. The fight might be a rough week or two for the child but they can do it.

I would just encourage her to start with one that the child is likely to contract and that could have dire consequences for the child. That seems to be whooping cough.

Seems like my advice was the same as the expert on infectious diseases. So everyone else ought to realize the only ones making illogical arguments were the ones trying to twist this into a debate over vaccination.

It's one child we're talking about here and peace in the marriage. Looking at the likelihood that the child would even contract the disease in the first place is the most logical thing to do. Not fear mongering conversations about "my friend with polio" and other really unrelated issues.

 

[Stomatopoda]

Don't forget to point out that rabies, earthquakes, poison ivy, and skunk musk are all completely natural and I suspect she would go out of her way to avoid them all.

Why stop there? We've also got fruit seeds full of cyanide, animals full of deadly venom, mountains full of deadly pressurized ash, and let's not forget that all-natural nuclear fireball that our planet is forever falling towards.

 

[trusetheeker]

I actually edited the HIV part, I thought it was obvious I didn't mean full fledged HIV.


You quoted the first part and then totally ignored it and frankly it's sorta the crux of the argument.

Also you say that "based on the information we had" well then where is the Swine Flu?

I find it odd that you find it completely inconceivable that there was fear mongering going on with the pharmaceutical companies (and no I'm not a anti big pharma person) that created a panic and demand for a vaccine that proved to be pretty much unnecessary.

Why is it that people on the other side never even for a second want to consider a fact. When this was going on, many of us said it felt like a scam to make money. In hind sight it sure as heck looks that way doesn't it? But they'll deny it to the gills.


You know when the Hurricane recently hit NYC many of us here thought Bloomberg was either making up for his shoddy work during the snow storm this past winter, or fear mongering people into going out and buying everything they could get their hands on, which included guzzling gas.

Several of my friends knew it wouldn't make a dent, and it certainly didn't do what we were told it was going to do.

It's not the first time someone in power has done this and it won't be the last. I guess some of us wonder why this has never dawned on the angry vaccination crowd.
...

Truethat, I came to the conclusion some time back that "skepticism"="ignoring all evidence that doesn't support the mainstream belief system." Everytime vaccination gets discussed on this forum, you get the same repetition of fear-mongering and belief based on the industries' propaganda (oops, evidence) and, of course, the blanket statement that all contrary studies, evidence and opinions have been discredited.

Vaccination is a religion and serious intellectual discussion is thwarted by the emotional attachment to entrenched beliefs as you have seen over the course of this discussion. There's no chance that any of the pro-vacciners will give any thought that the alternative view might be correct nor will they realise the ridiculousness of their vicious attacks against anyone who questions their beliefs.

You yourself appear to be under its spell as well as you stated in post #21

Of course the vaccine wasn't useless.

Why "of course?" There's reams of "discredited" evidence showing that vaccinations are a major cause of epidemics. Anyone who actually understands human physiology will realise that vaccinations are just a modern day version of medical mumbo-jumbo where demons were replaced by germs then germs by viruses. Herbert Shelton often spoke about how physicians are trained in the black art of poisoning the sick and that vaccinations are a method of poisoning the well which increases the physicians income base.

"There is not the slightest room to doubt that the frightful mortality from the "Black Death," "yellow fever," "sinking typhus," "congestive chills," smallpox, typhoid fever and pneumonia was due almost wholly to the poisoning, stimulating, narcotizing, bleeding, blistering, cauterizing, leeching, mercurializing, purging and antimonial practices of the times." H. Shelton, 1968

I realise that one child's death does not disprove the whole vaccination industry but the story of this child's death says a lot about why we should trust our own instincts despite the overwhelming pressure applied by the pro-vaccination army.

Ian's Voice

I applaud your strong stand for your and your childrens' rights to bodily sovereignty and hope that your strength will guide others to the light of rational thinking.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....
I realise that one child's death does not disprove the whole vaccination industry but the story of this child's death says a lot about why we should trust our own instincts despite the overwhelming pressure applied by the pro-vaccination army....

Here, let me fix that for you:

The story of this many children's deaths from vaccine preventable diseases says a lot about why we should trust our own instincts the overwhelming body of scientific research and the vast majority of dedicated, highly educated, rationally thinking, and not out to bilk the public scientists and health care workers despite the overwhelming pressure applied use of propaganda filled materials put out in abundance by the well meaning but poorly informed, uneducated, anti-vaccination army minority.

 

[Mister Earl]

If I come off a little harsh about this topic, please forgive me. I feel rather strongly regarding this topic.

Anti-vaxxers severely piss me off. It's a bunch of hipster hogwash. People want to be all new-agey and trendy in the eyes of their particular clique, but damned if they'll let little things like the health and welfare of their children get in the way.

No, justify anti-vax nonsense however you want, but this is EXACTLY what it boils down to. Any anti-vaxxer who tells you the welfare of their children is the most important thing is outright lying to you. If that were the case, they'd do the basic bare-bones minimal amount of research into the topic to realize the whole anti-vaxxer premise is utter garbage. And because of this garbage we're seeing infants and very young children dying of easily preventable diseases.

Anti-vax hipsters. Damn them all. No street-cred points from any culture justifies letting innocent children die.

 

[jasonpatterson]

I'm sure that someone has pointed this out in the previous 5 pages, but why not just take your kid to the doctor and have him or her vaccinated? What's more important, avoiding a fight with your wife or having your kid die? Good gravy, grow a pair.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm sure that someone has pointed this out in the previous 5 pages, but why not just take your kid to the doctor and have him or her vaccinated? What's more important, avoiding a fight with your wife or having your kid die? Good gravy, grow a pair.

There could be custody issues, legal issues. I agree with you and hope the courts would side with JamesB, but vaccines are given in a series. He needs to consider custody issues if it is going to involve multiple trips to the doc.