Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[smkovalinksy]

Well, that woman's comment seems to be rooted in simple ignorance -- not exactly misogynistic in nature. These jurors, however, are educated in law and should be more knowledgeable. I'm more worried that these female jurors possess a sort of subconscious misogyny that will influence their opinions of Knox. Italy is rife with misogyny and women are often complacent their own oppression (even for women who self-identify as feminists this is often true). We've already seen it in this trial, where a female prosecutor sat by while her male partner in crime said outright misogynistic statements in court against Amanda ("only a woman would do that") and wasn't called on it. Where civil attorneys hurled all kinds of vile misogynistic slurs at Amanda and not a single objection by Commodi. Perhaps though, these female jurors are "feminazis" and are furious with the display of misogyny at this trial and will let that influence their opinions instead.

Excellent analysis. I would like your last sentence to be true in this case, but the idea of a "subconscious misogyny" is very worrisome, as it would be the more powerful, were they unaware of it guiding them. I am just so afraid of their saying, "She would not have accused Patrick, were she not somehow involved. Sorry, I am not buying it. "

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Patrick Lumumba

1) called her 'the world’s best actress' in an interview with Britain’s Sunday Times.

2) says: He is living proof of her guilt.

3) says: I went to prison unjustly. I was called an assassin. Who said that? Amanda. I'm the proof that she is involved in the murder.

The 'actress' comment seems particularly timely in view of tomorrow's widely anticipated 'spontaneous declaration'.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2011/10/02/knox-is-world-s-greatest-actress.html

But Pilot really, from whom has Patrick gleaned his knowledge? He is much like the Kerchers in that he has been fed information by highly biased people. Do you think Amanda used the word "assassin"? And based on what evidence is he living proof of her guilt of murder? He is living proof of her guilt w.r.t. calunnia (or however you spell it.) But he is most certainly NOT living proof of her guilt w.r.t. Meredith's murder. Patrick is angry with her which is his right and which is understandable but when it comes to the crime of murder he really should keep his mouth shut unless he was there when it happened. MOO.

 

[charlatan]

If Hellmann orders pizza there will be an acquittal.
If he orders Mussels Carbonara there will be a conviction.
If the verdict is reached at 6:30 pm there will be an acquittal.
If the verdict is reached at 7:15 pm there will be a conviction.

My information comes from reliable sources.

 

[smkovalinksy]

What, for a coup de grace, is Maresca now planning to show photos of himself and Mignini in drag?

 

[smkovalinksy]

If Hellmann orders pizza there will be an acquittal.
If he orders Mussels Carbonara there will be a conviction.
If the verdict is reached at 6:30 pm there will be an acquittal.
If the verdict is reached at 7:15 pm there will be a conviction.

My information comes from reliable sources.

LOL

 

[Dougm]

Yes, I suppose you are correct. But I do not like a certain constellation of events I am seeing:

• polls with Italian women anti-Knox
• pieces appearing in the Italian media which seem anti-Knox
• the look of the jury, female -dominated
• Hellman having lunch AND dinner catered in, as though a bunch of points to deal with -UGH

Although I am not making any predictions here either, I think we are in danger here of reading things into this that may not be valid.

Here are my thoughts on the list:

• polls with Italian women anti-Knox gender of jurors is a valid point, but the poll is of people with much less knowlege of the actual evidence vs the jurors
• pieces appearing in the Italian media which seem anti-Knox hard to read this, hasn't there been a swing towards her?
• the look of the jury, female -dominated again, valid, but I don't want to make the mistake that people have made about Amanda, and assume that because they are women, they will automatically think or behave some way. If, at some point, they came to believe she is innocent, I think women might also be likely to have great sympathy towards her
• Hellman having lunch AND dinner catered in, as though a bunch of points to deal with -UGH

On the last one, the truth is they DO have a bunch of points to deal with. Although those of us who believe her innocent would like to assume that no deliberations are necessary, it doesn't make sense to me that they would not need to go over the case in detail. I am hopeful that the more time they spend on the facts, rather than the character issues, the more likely they are to see there is no case here.

 

[Dougm]

Well, that woman's comment seems to be rooted in simple ignorance -- not exactly misogynistic in nature. These jurors, however, are educated in law and should be more knowledgeable. I'm more worried that these female jurors possess a sort of subconscious misogyny that will influence their opinions of Knox. Italy is rife with misogyny and women are often complacent their own oppression (even for women who self-identify as feminists this is often true). We've already seen it in this trial, where a female prosecutor sat by while her male partner in crime said outright misogynistic statements in court against Amanda ("only a woman would do that") and wasn't called on it. Where civil attorneys hurled all kinds of vile misogynistic slurs at Amanda and not a single objection by Commodi. Perhaps though, these female jurors are "feminazis" and are furious with the display of misogyny at this trial and will let that influence their opinions instead.

Interesting points. I wonder if the fact that the jury is mostly female could backfire on the prosecution. With all the "witch" and "only a woman would do that" stuff, it could be that they pissed them off.

 

[JREF2010]

If Hellmann orders pizza there will be an acquittal.
If he orders Mussels Carbonara there will be a conviction.
If the verdict is reached at 6:30 pm there will be an acquittal.
If the verdict is reached at 7:15 pm there will be a conviction.

My information comes from reliable sources.

I'll buy Migninni some devils-cake.....

 

[Kaosium]

Yes, I suppose you are correct. But I do not like a certain constellation of events I am seeing:

• polls with Italian women anti-Knox

• 
  
  That's probably down from about 90% though, the result of other polls I've seen regarding probable guilt in Italy. It has been said that Italians tend to think their system is weighted to the defendant, is lax on punishment, and allows guilty people to go free, so amongst that number could be those who think she should be freed but is probably guilty anyway. Guilt is kind of a subtext in Italy I think, they've Guilt Incorporated walled up in their capitol of Rome.
  
  At any rate, how much do you think the average respondent to that poll knows about the case? Some of them might still think Amanda would kill for pizza and Raffaele cut girls in Puglia.
  

  [*]pieces appearing in the Italian media which seem anti-Knox

  
  What's amazing is there's pieces appearing that aren't anti-Knox, in fact some avidly pro-innocence. That wasn't occurring during the original trial, even those who seemed to have doubts, like Meo Ponte, were more guarded.
  
  
  

  [*]the look of the jury, female -dominated

  
  I recall when I heard the composition of the jury last December or so wondering if that 5-1 split would be bad for Amanda, and by extension Raffaele. However, the Massei court was mostly male as I recall, and they convicted her unanimously. It's a tough argument to make, but I do tend to think female jurors might be less forgiving about some things, thus that doesn't help, but in the end by design this jury is better educated than the Massei court was, and that ought to matter more.
  
  

  [*]Hellman having lunch AND dinner catered in, as though a bunch of points to deal with -UGH

That could easily be a man who doesn't want to be besieged by media just stepping out for a bite.

 

[lane99]

...On the other hand, one can detect more than a smidgeon of the cynical gadfly in your "argumentation."..

Jeez, you just made her day, js202.

I hope you are not self-deluded enough to think you are coming off as a Socratic gadfly, because you are not.

Ha, exactly.

Hers is nothing but the drone that a nit makes while it is picking. Or should I say witting.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Although I am not making any predictions here either, I think we are in danger here of reading things into this that may not be valid.

Here are my thoughts on the list:

• polls with Italian women anti-Knox gender of jurors is a valid point, but the poll is of people with much less knowlege of the actual evidence vs the jurors
• pieces appearing in the Italian media which seem anti-Knox hard to read this, hasn't there been a swing towards her?
• the look of the jury, female -dominated again, valid, but I don't want to make the mistake that people have made about Amanda, and assume that because they are women, they will automatically think or behave some way. If, at some point, they came to believe she is innocent, I think women might also be likely to have great sympathy towards her
• Hellman having lunch AND dinner catered in, as though a bunch of points to deal with -UGH

On the last one, the truth is they DO have a bunch of points to deal with. Although those of us who believe her innocent would like to assume that no deliberations are necessary, it doesn't make sense to me that they would not need to go over the case in detail. I am hopeful that the more time they spend on the facts, rather than the character issues, the more likely they are to see there is no case here.

Thanks for your input and your optimism. With regard to the recent "anti-Knox" pieces in the Italian media, I was referring to pieces running featuring Patrick Lumbada saying, "She is an actress, a liar, and a killer" ; and also the "Million dollar PR campaign to sway jury" pieces - all appearing with a vengence within the last 48-72 hours.

As for lunch and dinner, I keep getting visions of them trying to explain why, "while we did respect the findings of the independent experts, even so, we found other evidence such as lying, false alibis, the accusation of PL, yada yada yada ...".... ...and Hellman thinking, "how can I put this diplomatically, and as delicately as is possible?" I do hope I am wrong....

 

[Ammonitida]

Interesting points. I wonder if the fact that the jury is mostly female could backfire on the prosecution. With all the "witch" and "only a woman would do that" stuff, it could be that they pissed them off.

Since this is a jury composed of college educated women who are likely to have been exposed to feminist theory, I think a backfire is possible but then again, no objections came from the judges during that misogynistic spectacle. Makes you wonder.

Fortunately though, this is not a United States type of jury which are usually made up of ordinary citizens. If that had been the case, there'd be no hope at all.

 

[Dougm]

Since this is a jury composed of college educated women who are likely to have been exposed to feminist theory, I think a backfire is possible but then again, no objections came from the judges during that misogynistic spectacle. Makes you wonder.

Fortunately though, this is not a United States type of jury which are usually made up of ordinary citizens. If that had been the case, there'd be no hope at all.

I get the impression (oddly enough with all the slander charges that fly around) that they listen to whatever crap the attorneys throw out and make up their mind after listening to it. I think it is similar to the idea that the judge and jury is not sequestered, and can take in media reports, etc.

It seems odd to me too that there were no objections to this stuff, but they may have decided to let it stand on it's own merits, or lack thereof.

 

[smkovalinksy]

That's probably down from about 90% though, the result of other polls I've seen regarding probable guilt in Italy. It has been said that Italians tend to think their system is weighted to the defendant, is lax on punishment, and allows guilty people to go free, so amongst that number could be those who think she should be freed but is probably guilty anyway. Guilt is kind of a subtext in Italy I think, they've Guilt Incorporated walled up in their capitol of Rome.

At any rate, how much do you think the average respondent to that poll knows about the case? Some of them might still think Amanda would kill for pizza and Raffaele cut girls in Puglia.


What's amazing is there's pieces appearing that aren't anti-Knox, in fact some avidly pro-innocence. That wasn't occurring during the original trial, even those who seemed to have doubts, like Meo Ponte, were more guarded.




I recall when I heard the composition of the jury last December or so wondering if that 5-1 split would be bad for Amanda, and by extension Raffaele. However, the Massei court was mostly male as I recall, and they convicted her unanimously. It's a tough argument to make, but I do tend to think female jurors might be less forgiving about some things, thus that doesn't help, but in the end by design this jury is better educated than the Massei court was, and that ought to matter more.



That could easily be a man who doesn't want to be besieged by media just stepping out for a bite.

Good refutations. I am hoping this is a case where my pessimism will turn out to have been unwarranted.

 

[Dan O.]

Fact 1 - He claimed it.
Fact 2 - It is not true.

Is this in fact all that is necessary to arrest someone in Italy? Remember, we started this discussion with your claim that they could have been arrested.


As for your facts, he states in his diary that he "remembers" browsing the Internet. This could be true independent of whether he was actually browsing the net. The statements written by ILE are full of blatant errors and without a recording from that night, we don't know how they were arrived at. The memory of browsing the net could derive from suggestions made during this interrogation. Thanks to the failure of ILE to preserve a record of this interrogation, we have no way now of saying what actually happened.

Raffaele's browser was open all night from the closing of Amelie to sometime after 5am (according to the postal's reconstruction in Massei). This shows at least there was an intent to access the Internet or at least a habit of browsing the net in the evenings.

 

[JREF2010]

Thanks for your input and your optimism. With regard to the recent "anti-Knox" pieces in the Italian media, I was referring to pieces running featuring Patrick Lumbada saying, "She is an actress, a liar, and a killer" ; and also the "Million dollar PR campaign to sway jury" pieces - all appearing with a vengence within the last 48-72 hours.

As for lunch and dinner, I keep getting visions of them trying to explain why, "while we did respect the findings of the independent experts, even so, we found other evidence such as lying, false alibis, the accusation of PL, yada yada yada ...".... ...and Hellman thinking, "how can I put this diplomatically, and as delicately as is possible?" I do hope I am wrong....

I think about that too, or the report, what would it say if written on a guilty verdict?

If the courts in Perugia, Italy can convict with a prosecutor's case, that has No Motive, a Heroin Bum witness, DNA of starch.... then its as big a waste of time as reading PMF.

 

[smkovalinksy]

I think about that too, or the report, what would it say if written on a guilty verdict?

If the courts in Perugia, Italy can convict with a prosecutor's case, that has No Motive, a Heroin Bum witness, DNA of starch.... then its as big a waste of time as reading PMF.

Well, let us just hope that Hellman and the court surprise us, and acquit with gusto! Maybe Mignini and Massei - or rather, some of their behavior within this case - are just a small stain on an otherwise fine nation and judicial system.

 

[Malkmus]

Unlike some others, I'm not willing to make too many overconfident predictions in this case. But I do strongly feel that Hellmann will heavily drive this decision. Remember, he must write the motivations report to which he will give his imprimatur. Hellmann has given the impression that he is a rationalist, and that is the best sign possible for AK and RS.

I share the same sentiment. I have a hard time seeing Hellman write the same drivel as Massei, when things played out so differently this time around. Namely the C&V report, but also his intolerance for the prosecution's shenanigans. He had those three pieces of evidence reviewed for a reason (knife, clasp, Curatolo) and they failed miserably. He's not going to just overlook that.

 

[komponisto]

[*]Hellman having lunch AND dinner catered in, as though a bunch of points to deal with

What on Earth is your source for this?

It doesn't mean anything if it's true. But I just want to know which media outlet has been reporting on Hellmann's dining arrangements for Monday.

 

[Dougm]

I think about that too, or the report, what would it say if written on a guilty verdict?

If the courts in Perugia, Italy can convict with a prosecutor's case, that has No Motive, a Heroin Bum witness, DNA of starch.... then its as big a waste of time as reading PMF.

What you said is the biggest single reason I have for optomism about the verdict. How will they explain a guily verdict?

Of course, Massei did not have much trouble, although his report read like bizarro logic 101. I am hoping Hellmann does not want to write a similar document.