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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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CoulsdonUK,

I think this is a very good idea. The Troy Davis and Todd Willingham cases suggest a number of reforms that states might consider. The cases surrounding the murders of Meredith Kercher and Sarah Scazzi have unfolded in such a way as to suggest certain things Italy might do differently. I think it would be an apt tribute to the deceased if such reforms happened, and I would hope that it would bring a small measure of comfort to the families involved.
ETA
I imagine that if you polled people here, some would tell you that they signed on-line petitions in support of Mr. Davis's bid to have his sentence reconsidered.

There are many reforms that could and should be made to all judicial systems, in my belief.

From what I have seen of people, the requirement for a unanimous jury verdict is necessary. I don't have any faith in the decision of a mere majority. A majority of two thirds seems to get it right a lot.

I would also want to see actual probabilities calculated for the accuracy and pertinency of all evidence, deliberated by experts and placed into the court record.

----

On the subject of leaving Italy before an appeal to the Italian Supreme Court: Yes, yes, yes.

Italy should welcome the idea as it would not only be a face saver, but it would end any suits against the prosecution for false imprisonment.
 
I'm at 100% Acquittal vote if I was a temp-Judge.


but as a person who believes..the system can become ill..its 50/50.


Signs of Illness of the System-

a) ignore their own independent experts,
b)allowing the circus animals inside the courtroom
c) Edgardo Giobbi placing the pictures on his wall before the trail starts
d) Stefanoni allowed to keep her job
e) Monica, and the interrogation recording not investigated
d) Commodi threatens to sue , during a court room defense
e) Leaks allowed, even the reporters laugh at how much is leaked
f) the press allowed to stay in the room during Marescas exploitation of the victims bloody nude body

Maybe the Rat Machine and the Team of Rat inside the ill system...
maybe one rat told another rat that "the rat fix is in", and Hellman is part of the Dark Side too? Would you be surprised, really?

I won't be surprised if the system is ill from the rat germs. Who would be surprised after watching this trial for 4 yrs?
 
Hello everyone,
Yesterday it was noted from a post on PMF that Yummi, aka Machiavelli here on JREF and IIP actually speaks with Prosecutor Mignini in Perugia, Italy which really suprised me.

There was something about his/her post that bothered me though:



Now that I know of Yummi's inside connections, I wonder how does he/she know that it was indeed a semen stain that was found on the pillow case underneath and between Meredith's legs?

Just because the defence has called it that?
Or is he/she privy to inside information that maybe, just maybe Comodi did not feel that the defence needs to know about? Was this stain tested and found to be semen? For as far as I've ever read, everyone in the pro-guilt camp seems to believe that it is just vaseline, not semen. But Yummi specifically calls it a semen stain...

Hey Yummi,
care to enlighten us curious folks?
Is that indeed a semen stain?
If so, how do you know?

Thanks in advance for helping us find out the truth in this brutal, bloody murder we discuss.
RW

Hi Randy!

Interesting post. Whatever the answer to your question is, what I am sure about is that the prosecution knows whether it is a semen stain or not, whether they have tested it or not. Ask any adult if a stain is semen, or vasaline, and they can tell you in about 3 seconds. One is water based, one is oil based.
 
He should run away, but I think he is safe to stick around with his family for a few weeks. Someone needs to get Microsoft to sponsor him for a work visa so he can stay longer than 90 days.
 
Guess they are getting prepared for Monday:

Hundreds of Reporters Descend on Italian Town


Today, there are 412 journalists accredited with the Perugia tribunal, many from American, British and Italian news outlets -- the nations that have followed the case most closely. But representatives of Dutch, French and German media are also present.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/1...own-to-cover-amanda-knox-trial/#ixzz1ZXcKpRJy

Perugia Waits


http://blogs.news.sky.com/eurovision/Post:fcc4daf3-2851-4bcd-937a-fe0f00b0b897
 
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I'm at 100% Acquittal vote if I was a temp-Judge.


but as a person who believes..the system can become ill..its 50/50.


Signs of Illness of the System-

a) ignore their own independent experts,
b)allowing the circus animals inside the courtroom
c) Edgardo Giobbi placing the pictures on his wall before the trail starts
d) Stefanoni allowed to keep her job
e) Monica, and the interrogation recording not investigated
d) Commodi threatens to sue , during a court room defense
e) Leaks allowed, even the reporters laugh at how much is leaked
f) the press allowed to stay in the room during Marescas exploitation of the victims bloody nude body

Maybe the Rat Machine and the Team of Rat inside the ill system...
maybe one rat told another rat that "the rat fix is in", and Hellman is part of the Dark Side too? Would you be surprised, really?

I won't be surprised if the system is ill from the rat germs. Who would be surprised after watching this trial for 4 yrs?

I think all of this makes sense. There is one thing, however, that keeps "knawing" at my brain, making me think that the judge/jury is bound to acquit.

Given all that you stated above, if Hellmann has, on live TV, a confirmation of the convictions, he has just publicly endorsed, to a worldwide audience, all of the points you have listed, and then some. And he has ignored the massive amounts of doubt in the case presented against a young man and woman, and will be sending them back to jail. So a guilty verdict is not ony an endorsement of these ideas as OK, it is also giving a great big public finger to the people who have raised these issues as blatently unfair to the defendants.

Although that would probably go over fine for most in Italy, Hellmann has to know that the Knox family and her other supporters are not going away, and are going to get even louder and more persistant, and work to enlist the help of ever higher authorities in the US and elsewhere. At this point, the lack of evidence in this case has come to the attention of a lot more people than before, and it is not going to be possible to cover it up.

I am not making the point that Hellmann, Zenetti, and the jurors are going to base their decision on politics. What I am saying is that they must be aware that this decision will be scrutinized world wide, and if they confirm those convictions, they better be damned sure they are willing to live with the consequences.

If Knox and Sollecito are ultimately acquitted, the basic opinion around the world will be that, with all it's problems, the Italian system ultimately gave these defendants a fair trial, and reached a rational outcome. Even those who think they are guilty will believe that the system is not at fault. But if, after the points you mentioned have been exposed to the light as they have, they still convict Amanda and Raffaele, these glaring issues are going to be exposed to scrutiny in a very unwelcome way, and that will not reflect well on the Italian judiciary. This has happened some already, but having convicted Amanda when she still has an appeal pending is one thing, but having her in jail for 26-life based on this bizarre grandstanding, and after the DNA evidence has been thoroughly shredded by the court's own experts, will likely be seen as a political/dislike of Americans decision. If they think there is a rabid group of pro-Knox people now, just wait. And later, there might be some real money behind this, if more important people get interested.

Some will read this as threatening, and if they do, they are missing the point entirely. I am just theorizing on some facts here. If Hellmann and jury want to stand up before the world and publicly say all this stuff is OK with them, they can do that. But there is a light being shined on them right now, and they can either have it turned down or off, or they can have it turned way up. All systems have problems, but when they are brought to light, people have to stand up and say if those problems are acceptable, or if they need to change. This is one of those times.
 
He should run away, but I think he is safe to stick around with his family for a few weeks. Someone needs to get Microsoft to sponsor him for a work visa so he can stay longer than 90 days.

Maybe he can live in Texas. I hear that illegal immigrants can get in-state tuition there. :D
 
I think all of this makes sense. There is one thing, however, that keeps "knawing" at my brain, making me think that the judge/jury is bound to acquit.

Given all that you stated above, if Hellmann has, on live TV, a confirmation of the convictions, he has just publicly endorsed, to a worldwide audience, all of the points you have listed, and then some. And he has ignored the massive amounts of doubt in the case presented against a young man and woman, and will be sending them back to jail. So a guilty verdict is not ony an endorsement of these ideas as OK, it is also giving a great big public finger to the people who have raised these issues as blatently unfair to the defendants.

Although that would probably go over fine for most in Italy, Hellmann has to know that the Knox family and her other supporters are not going away, and are going to get even louder and more persistant, and work to enlist the help of ever higher authorities in the US and elsewhere. At this point, the lack of evidence in this case has come to the attention of a lot more people than before, and it is not going to be possible to cover it up.

I am not making the point that Hellmann, Zenetti, and the jurors are going to base their decision on politics. What I am saying is that they must be aware that this decision will be scrutinized world wide, and if they confirm those convictions, they better be damned sure they are willing to live with the consequences.

If Knox and Sollecito are ultimately acquitted, the basic opinion around the world will be that, with all it's problems, the Italian system ultimately gave these defendants a fair trial, and reached a rational outcome. Even those who think they are guilty will believe that the system is not at fault. But if, after the points you mentioned have been exposed to the light as they have, they still convict Amanda and Raffaele, these glaring issues are going to be exposed to scrutiny in a very unwelcome way, and that will not reflect well on the Italian judiciary. This has happened some already, but having convicted Amanda when she still has an appeal pending is one thing, but having her in jail for 26-life based on this bizarre grandstanding, and after the DNA evidence has been thoroughly shredded by the court's own experts, will likely be seen as a political/dislike of Americans decision. If they think there is a rabid group of pro-Knox people now, just wait. And later, there might be some real money behind this, if more important people get interested.

Some will read this as threatening, and if they do, they are missing the point entirely. I am just theorizing on some facts here. If Hellmann and jury want to stand up before the world and publicly say all this stuff is OK with them, they can do that. But there is a light being shined on them right now, and they can either have it turned down or off, or they can have it turned way up. All systems have problems, but when they are brought to light, people have to stand up and say if those problems are acceptable, or if they need to change. This is one of those times.
This is a very good analysis, and logically your conclusion should stand. Let us just hope this is not one of those times when an irrational, strange, nationalism takes over. That would be the only flaw I could conceive of. I keep hearing Mignini's words: This is the Republic of Italy, and we should stand firm against American media pressure. So long as Hellman and the jury do not share this view, all will be well.
 
There has been obstinacy in building the case against Amanda and Raffaele, Maori finally explained.
The cops said that “a source” told them that Raffaele was cutting girls in Puglia. And they went to Puglia, but they didn’t find any cut girl. And someone bought the story of the “source”…
The cops tried to say that Raffaele’s mother had committed suicide, so to make people think he could have an hereditary madness. But Raffaele’s mother died of cerebral hemorrhage!
They have been able to use even the death of a mother.

If this has been discussed recently I apologize.

It is interesting to me that I never heard this so clearly stated. On the PG sites people have been doing analysis on Raf since forever. They link to handwriting "experts", statement analysis "experts", psychology (misrepresented TM) "experts" and more that have use his mother's suicide as part of the total analysis. I don't belong there, in any sense, so I can't search but I don't remember anyone being threatened with being banned for repeating the canard.

With all their inside sources you'd think they'd get it right and shout down anyone that repeated the lie.
 
This is a very good analysis, and logically your conclusion should stand. Let us just hope this is not one of those times when an irrational, strange, nationalism takes over. That would be the only flaw I could conceive of. I keep hearing Mignini's words: This is the Republic of Italy, and we should stand firm against American media pressure. So long as Hellman and the jury do not share this view, all will be well.

I hope they can tune all of this out and just look at the facts. That would probably mean they aren't human though.
 
There has been obstinacy in building the case against Amanda and Raffaele, Maori finally explained.
The cops said that “a source” told them that Raffaele was cutting girls in Puglia. And they went to Puglia, but they didn’t find any cut girl. And someone bought the story of the “source”…
The cops tried to say that Raffaele’s mother had committed suicide, so to make people think he could have an hereditary madness. But Raffaele’s mother died of cerebral hemorrhage!
They have been able to use even the death of a mother.

If this has been discussed recently I apologize.

It is interesting to me that I never heard this so clearly stated. On the PG sites people have been doing analysis on Raf since forever. They link to handwriting "experts", statement analysis "experts", psychology (misrepresented TM) "experts" and more that have use his mother's suicide as part of the total analysis. I don't belong there, in any sense, so I can't search but I don't remember anyone being threatened with being banned for repeating the canard.

With all their inside sources you'd think they'd get it right and shout down anyone that repeated the lie.

It would be interesting to see a list of items in this case that were based on things like "a source", or were based on rumor, but either reported in the media or used in court by the prosecution without any substantiation.

That is what floored me about this case once I learned all the facts. So many PG folks vehemently arguing for guilt using facts that have no substantiation whatsoever. I had expected to find a case where the facts were mostly known, and people disagreed on what they mean. Instead I found a case where the facts are mostly known, except that there is a group using other facts that don't exist to argue that the known facts must be wrong.
 
Here's one thing that has puzzled me ever since I started to look at the case: Generally, when you have a murder of a young woman in what looks like a crime of passion, suspicion is automatically cast on her boyfriend or husband, and the police usually check him out very carefully right off the bat. In this case, it seems as if the rush to judgment against Knox and Sollecito was on from the start -- did PLE ever examine Kercher's boyfriend to see if he might have been dumped by her or found she was seeing someone else? It seems as if his role was discounted from the very beginning. That is especially odd considering he was apparently involved in criminal activity (drug-dealing). If he himself had an alibi, might LE not have investigated as to whether Kercher's murder might have been in retaliation against her boyfriend by a rival dealer or gang?


He was out of town and the pot plants weren't enough to concern the syndicate IMO.

But...Kokomani was later convicted of dealing coke and he was associated with the Albanians that do drug business in the area (where LMT?)

He admitted being there at the time of the murder with his car (old dark car in drive maybe) and cell phones. IIRC he knew Rudy. He and Rudy go there to steal and Meredith ends up murdered.

And did the coke dealer the PGP people yapped about for a month, his number in Amanda's phone, get mentioned by the prosecution?
 
I think all of this makes sense. There is one thing, however, that keeps "knawing" at my brain, making me think that the judge/jury is bound to acquit.

Given all that you stated above, if Hellmann has, on live TV, a confirmation of the convictions, he has just publicly endorsed, to a worldwide audience, all of the points you have listed, and then some. And he has ignored the massive amounts of doubt in the case presented against a young man and woman, and will be sending them back to jail. So a guilty verdict is not ony an endorsement of these ideas as OK, it is also giving a great big public finger to the people who have raised these issues as blatently unfair to the defendants.

Although that would probably go over fine for most in Italy, Hellmann has to know that the Knox family and her other supporters are not going away, and are going to get even louder and more persistant, and work to enlist the help of ever higher authorities in the US and elsewhere. At this point, the lack of evidence in this case has come to the attention of a lot more people than before, and it is not going to be possible to cover it up.

I am not making the point that Hellmann, Zenetti, and the jurors are going to base their decision on politics. What I am saying is that they must be aware that this decision will be scrutinized world wide, and if they confirm those convictions, they better be damned sure they are willing to live with the consequences.

If Knox and Sollecito are ultimately acquitted, the basic opinion around the world will be that, with all it's problems, the Italian system ultimately gave these defendants a fair trial, and reached a rational outcome. Even those who think they are guilty will believe that the system is not at fault. But if, after the points you mentioned have been exposed to the light as they have, they still convict Amanda and Raffaele, these glaring issues are going to be exposed to scrutiny in a very unwelcome way, and that will not reflect well on the Italian judiciary. This has happened some already, but having convicted Amanda when she still has an appeal pending is one thing, but having her in jail for 26-life based on this bizarre grandstanding, and after the DNA evidence has been thoroughly shredded by the court's own experts, will likely be seen as a political/dislike of Americans decision. If they think there is a rabid group of pro-Knox people now, just wait. And later, there might be some real money behind this, if more important people get interested.

Some will read this as threatening, and if they do, they are missing the point entirely. I am just theorizing on some facts here. If Hellmann and jury want to stand up before the world and publicly say all this stuff is OK with them, they can do that. But there is a light being shined on them right now, and they can either have it turned down or off, or they can have it turned way up. All systems have problems, but when they are brought to light, people have to stand up and say if those problems are acceptable, or if they need to change. This is one of those times.

I dont know of any consequences other than personal feelings of possible shame. No legal consequences for Judges that I know of?

I agree, for me I cant comprehend the politics that go on and cant imagine how they could "sell it" in front of the media.

The prosecution fiction is this...character thing
<the missing alibi's seemed wishy-washy at the non-recorded interrogation of wierd writings of Amanda...and Raffaeles wierd writings of the diary...why do they lie?>

Thats all thats left imo, since the C&V and forensic video.
I'll be honest a couple things as I understand it does seem so bizzare its hard to understand what Amanda and Raffaele, and their lawyers!! allowed the diaries and couldnt get a clue to some response.

I have been around numerous stoned 20yr olds and as an adult, and to imagine these may I say "youthful idiots", it would not be good to imagine them being interrogated and asked for details.

Better to interrogate Cheech & Chong.
 
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This comment about Maundy Gregory piece of Oct. 1 from PMF, and an excerpt from the piece below. A perspective so diametrically opposed to my own reason and logic, it boggles the mind. Let's just hope the Italian judges do not share this point of view:

"So, as Gregory concludes, for the Defense it all comes down to hoping that the judges decide to toss out logic and evidence in favor of the Gogerty-Marriott / Bruce Fisher narrative."

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=420&start=3000

Knox/Sollecito: There’s not much left to say

Call me naive, but I think the one place that the facts of the case will be clearly heard above all the din and chatter is in the deliberations of the appeal judges and juror-judges. They don’t really need reminding to ignore the cobblers that has been written about the case in a foreign language. So who are the lawyers talking to? They surely can’t have been, in their vanity, addressing their words to the 400 or more journalists currently squeezed into the courthouse? This case has always been weird.

On the other hand, perhaps I am indeed naive. Perhaps the case will be decided according to the opinions of ill-informed hacks and nonsense on the internet such as you are currently reading. I can’t believe it is likely, but it may be the last ray of hope for Jessica and Roger.
http://maundygregory.wordpress.com/2011/10/01/knoxsollecito/That sort of closing, with the sneer at the din of Today Show and NBC type of chatter, is usually my own stance on things. In this case, I am forced out of character, in a sense...odd....
 
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This comment about Maundy Gregory piece of Oct. 1 from PMF, and an excerpt from the piece below. A perspective so diametrically opposed to my own reason and logic, it boggles the mind. Let's just hope the Italian judges do not share this point of view:

"So, as Gregory concludes, for the Defense it all comes down to hoping that the judges decide to toss out logic and evidence in favor of the Gogerty-Marriott / Bruce Fisher narrative."

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=420&start=3000

http://maundygregory.wordpress.com/2011/10/01/knoxsollecito/That sort of closing, with the sneer at the din of Today Show and NBC type of chatter, is usually my own stance on things. In this case, I am forced out of character, in a sense...odd....

Criticism's of the hydra and Jessica Rabbit analogies from the guy who breaks a butterfly on a cartwheel? All three of these analogies were good ones, in my opinion. There will be plenty to say after the verdict, imo.
 
Criticism's of the hydra and Jessica Rabbit analogies from the guy who breaks a butterfly on a cartwheel? All three of these analogies were good ones, in my opinion. There will be plenty to say after the verdict, imo.

Isn't it funny how these guilters start out pretending to be neutral, starting out passive, but at the end of the day they can't hide their aggression. Maundy is a perfect example of this. He wanted to create this impression that he was on the fence, but as the appeal went on he became more and more convinced of guilt....Ya right!

He's also as dumb as dumb gets.
 
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