Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kaosium]

Well for me it’s not the case of blindly accepting anything more the fact that a sovereign western democracy has the right to administer justice according to its own laws. I did a bit of light research on Troy Davis, I am still stunned that he was executed, I am sure there were many Americans who did not blindly accept the judicial process but a it made no difference.

My reading on Troy Davis is probably lighter than yours, so I don't know if there's actually reasonable doubt he did it, just that the bit I saw about deluges of witnesses recanting recently and something by a former FBI director sure sounded cautionary on the surface.

Whether he should be executed is one that speaks to politics, but whether he actually did it doesn't change regardless of what a court says--or an electric chair. Now if enough evidence comes forward that suggests he didn't do it, shouldn't that make some difference? Would you be opposed to that on principle?

Amanda and Raffaele didn't do it, and that should make some difference too, and it will someday, if not Monday.

 

[RoseMontague]

I did not, I just continued your story.

I think that the ransacking is not genuine.

I agree in that the room does not look to be ransacked to me either. It looks like a messy room with the only items I "might" attribute to Rudy are the clothes that appear to have fallen from the wardrobe to the foot of the bed, the case in the middle of the floor, and possibly the paper (could have been the wind) on the mat next to the bed. I have asked this question many times on other venues and just have not received a satisfactory explanation (other than Filomena left a mess).

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Yes, they do have the right to do this. That's what sovereignity means.
But none of us are trying to undermine the sovereignity of Italy by forcing (with violence or any other coercive means) them to let AK and RS go. As citizens of our own sovereign democracies, we have no interest in doing so.

However,
a) It is not clear in the case even that Italian law was followed both in the investigation or in the first trial.
b) I, for one, would like the Italian people to reflect on their laws (e.g. allowing victims this kind of role), see that they are not the most clear reflection or expression of certain principles of justice, and work to get them changed, through democratic means.

With regards your item B. I would hope any democratic country that has the death penalty on its statute books should consider the automatic appeals process that Italy employs, not everything about their process is bad or unjust in my opinion.

 

[bri1]

With regards your item B. I would hope any democratic country that has the death penalty on its statute books should consider the automatic appeals process that Italy employs, not everything about their process is bad or unjust in my opinion.

Coulsdon, I totally agree. I think that even countries which don't have the death penalty could learn something from Italy's appeal system. The length of time Amanda and Raff might have had to wait for the UK's appeal process would've been longer.
However, in all likelihood, they would not have been convicted in Brtiain in the first place (because of a mixture of our strict sub-judice rules, and some less clear cultural-legal differences).
Every justice system has strengths and weaknesses. I think my impression though (formed through the very basic comparative studies needed for an understanding of this case) is that Italy has more systemic problems than most other justice systems in other first world, democratic countries.

 

[theRealBob]

That is one thing I agree with.
I think he stole the money.

I must say I have noticed that for a guilter Bolint you do give the appearance of being a very reasonable and sane poster.

Still, who knows what really goes on behind those screens....

 

[CoulsdonUK]

My reading on Troy Davis is probably lighter than yours, so I don't know if there's actually reasonable doubt he did it, just that the bit I saw about deluges of witnesses recanting recently and something by a former FBI director sure sounded cautionary on the surface.

Whether he should be executed is one that speaks to politics, but whether he actually did it doesn't change regardless of what a court says--or an electric chair. Now if enough evidence comes forward that suggests he didn't do it, shouldn't that make some difference? Would you be opposed to that on principle?

Amanda and Raffaele didn't do it, and that should make some difference too, and it will someday, if not Monday.

If evidence were found that he didn’t do it that would not make any difference to Mr Davis. Unlike Mr Davis Raffaele and Amanda are fortunate that Italy has the automatic appeals process.

 

[Justinian2]

I’m catching up slowly here....

I think the reason we are hearing all the ridiculous guilter talking points in the prosecution case is that our old friend Yummi or Machavelli on some sites, today admitted that he speaks directly with Mignini...I’m not a good searcher but I came across it on someone’s link (I think Surfin, Sharkin Randys) over to PMS...errrrr ... PMF.

I find that assertion creditable because all the prosecutions talking points closely follow the odd path of “logic” used at both PMF and TJMK. Right down to the silly jet and death sentence in USA claims…I actually think Mignini has gone so far off track that he has lost it! He is using the guilter sites and the likes of geniuses like Yummi, Kermit, Pervert Quinell, and Miss Piggy Ganong…Start looking at the arguments and comparing….It all fits…

Lets start a list of crazy ideas from PMF/TJMK that now have come into the trial.

I’ll start it off with these gems

1. The Supreme Court Decision says three committed this crime….Mignini said this in court.
2. They must prove when the contamination occurred…………… Comodi gets this one.
3. Mixed blood………………………………...................................Mignini again.
4. Jet waiting ………………………………......................................Prosecutor Mignini
5. Race card….poor black guy getting stuck with charges………… Mignini


These all come from the sewer of PMF/TJMK.

Isn’t it strange that during this whole appeal the prosecution stuck closely to emotional items and rarely if ever mentioned any facts. They want us to think of Toto as creditable but they fail to even mention how he fits into proving that the defendants murdered anyone. That’s because if Toto’s story were actually true per the first trial then he provides a perfect alibi for the defendants as he states the lovers were in Grimana from 9 til midnight…which makes it impossible for them to then murder anyone during these hours.

No knife, no DNA, entries into a sealed crime scene…(check out DanO’s BLN photo op…with the open door sealed with caution tape..) WTF is that all about?

As far as trials go …even a Supreme Court decision upholding a conviction of murder can still be overturned. In fact it is a case exactly like this that Hellmann is most famous for . In 2000 he was part of a 3 judge panel that overturned a murder conviction that had been confirmed by the SC….and so as our friend Pilot likes to say….It aint over…tillll

I thought that was a good talking point and have started a thread at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7631513#post7631513 on the subject of the PMF and TJMK. Those sites seem philosophically too close to viewpoints and passion of the opposing lawyers not to have a direct connection, in my estimation.

 

[theRealBob]

This is part of an excellent post on TJFMW getting straight to the facts...

This is a translation of key parts of a detailed report from the AGI news service - the excellent reporter is not named.

On Ms Comodi’s opening remarks to the court.

In Perugia the hearing of the appeal of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, in the first instance [at trial] convicted for the murder of Meredith Kercher, has resumed. This morning, the prosecutor Manuela Comodi began her part of the indictment.

“Regardless of the scientific evidence, your decision can only be the confirmation of the decision at first instance [at trial],” the prosecutor said.

During the day the prosecution will make its request for a tougher sentence for the ex-lovers who are present in the courtroom next to their defence teams.

 

[JREF2010]

This is interesting, and this "Italian Law Expert" gives a more measured view of what might happen, vs. what has been reported by the more hysterical media. Don't know if Mignini could keep her in Italy if acquittals happen, but I don't doubt he will try.

http://www.nwcn.com/video?id=130888418&sec=551977

really interesting post.

he touches on the saving-face part, in a way, i mean what other reason would they pull out all the possible attacks to keep them in Italy if released?
seems so

some posted on tweeter in agreement, the Prosecution would also.

maybe the lear Jet idea is a good one after all....I wonder what Raffaele will do?

 

[RoseMontague]

really interesting post.

he touches on the saving-face part, in a way, i mean what other reason would they pull out all the possible attacks to keep them in Italy if released?
seems so

some posted on tweeter in agreement, the Prosecution would also.

maybe the lear Jet idea is a good one after all....I wonder what Raffaele will do?

I would suggest he go with her. Just my opinion.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

Can you be specific and give a few examples? Would it include RoseMontague, who (jokingly) talks about Raffaele and the witch girl? Would it include me? I refer to this as the Knox/Sollecito case and made sure that Sollecito's name was in the thread tag. If saying that all four flatmates smoked cannabis, drank lightly and had boyfriends (as I have done repeatedly) is putting Meredith down, then I am surely guilty. If you mean something else, then I have no idea what you are saying.

Halides1

No I’d rather not provide examples, although I was not referring to you or RoseMontague; I should have used the word some of those who support Amanda. I believe my exchange of posts yesterday makes my position clear and it is one that I doubt we will agree on.

 

[bri1]

I would suggest he go with her. Just my opinion.

As in go the the US, or actually go with Amanda? And do you mean he should go to the US, or just out of Italy?
I do wonder about their relationship now, and whether they can or would want to have any relationship after this is over.
(I mean relationship in the broadest sense, not necessarily a romantic one).
I read that they exchange letters, and they seem friendly in the court room.

 

[RoseMontague]

As in go the the US, or actually go with Amanda? And do you mean he should go to the US, or just out of Italy?
I do wonder about their relationship now, and whether they can or would want to have any relationship after this is over.
(I mean relationship in the broadest sense, not necessarily a romantic one).
I read that they exchange letters, and they seem friendly in the court room.

Go with her to the US, at least until the case is ruled on by the SC, depending on that result, of course. He speaks some English, perhaps he can continue his education stateside.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

reforms in Italy and the United States

With regards your item B. I would hope any democratic country that has the death penalty on its statute books should consider the automatic appeals process that Italy employs, not everything about their process is bad or unjust in my opinion.

CoulsdonUK,

I think this is a very good idea. The Troy Davis and Todd Willingham cases suggest a number of reforms that states might consider. The cases surrounding the murders of Meredith Kercher and Sarah Scazzi have unfolded in such a way as to suggest certain things Italy might do differently. I think it would be an apt tribute to the deceased if such reforms happened, and I would hope that it would bring a small measure of comfort to the families involved.
ETA
I imagine that if you polled people here, some would tell you that they signed on-line petitions in support of Mr. Davis's bid to have his sentence reconsidered.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the meaning of embarrassment

Are you in agreement with Rolfe's sarcastic description of the Kerchers?

lionking,

If I were invited to give a talk, and the person introducing me lavished me with praise I did not deserve, I would be "embarrassed." I believe that Rolfe used the word "embarrassed" in the sense suggested by my example. I do not hold the Kerchers responsible for what may be a misunderstanding of their financial situation, and I do not believe that Rolfe does either.

 

[bri1]

Go with her to the US, at least until the case is ruled on by the SC, depending on that result, of course. He speaks some English, perhaps he can continue his education stateside.

I think that would be my move if I were him, but unless his whole family were to pack up and go also, I don't think he will. On the other hand, what would life be like for him in Italy?
I hope that all prosecutions against the families of both Raff and Amanda will be dropped after the acquittals...

 

[RWVBWL]

Hey Yummi, is that really a semen stain?

Hello everyone,
Yesterday it was noted from a post on PMF that Yummi, aka Machiavelli here on JREF and IIP actually speaks with Prosecutor Mignini in Perugia, Italy which really suprised me.

There was something about his/her post that bothered me though:

This was something I disagreed about with Mignini. I also spoke with him about it. In my opinion trivial motive and sexual violence are two aggravating circumstances that should not be added to each other; they both have a logical implication on motive and as such, a further aggravation due to motive would be like counting the aggravation twice.
I am not convinced by a few of Mignini and Comodi's arguments. I do not subscribe to mentioning a sovreignity/national argument for example. I do not subscribe entirely on their legal arguments about the implications of Aviello and Alessi testimonies.
I do not subscribe to a few assessments of Comodi on the physical evidence.
I note the semen stain has disappeared from defense arguments.

Now that I know of Yummi's inside connections, I wonder how does he/she know that it was indeed a semen stain that was found on the pillow case underneath and between Meredith's legs?

Just because the defence has called it that?
Or is he/she privy to inside information that maybe, just maybe Comodi did not feel that the defence needs to know about? Was this stain tested and found to be semen? For as far as I've ever read, everyone in the pro-guilt camp seems to believe that it is just vaseline, not semen. But Yummi specifically calls it a semen stain...

Hey Yummi,
care to enlighten us curious folks?
Is that indeed a semen stain?
If so, how do you know?

Thanks in advance for helping us find out the truth in this brutal, bloody murder we discuss.
RW

 

[bri1]

Go with her to the US, at least until the case is ruled on by the SC, depending on that result, of course. He speaks some English, perhaps he can continue his education stateside.

Looks like the plan is to go home to Bari. From interview with Dr Sollecito:

'When asked what his son would do if acquitted, he said: "We'll go home, there are no other plans. We just take one day at a time.

"Today's Friday, tomorrow's Saturday, then Sunday. Then there will be a day of the verdict. And if they finally give him back to me, I will take him home." '

 

[Dougm]

I would suggest he go with her. Just my opinion.

I would.

 

[Dougm]

As in go the the US, or actually go with Amanda? And do you mean he should go to the US, or just out of Italy?
I do wonder about their relationship now, and whether they can or would want to have any relationship after this is over.
(I mean relationship in the broadest sense, not necessarily a romantic one).
I read that they exchange letters, and they seem friendly in the court room.

This was about Rose's comment that Raffaele should go with her. My agreement is not based on them having any relationship -- I suspect that any relationship Amanda has with him, or her former boyfriend, or some new guy she has never even met is not at the top of her list right now. My agreement was based on learning from what Amanda did the last time, which is stick around and help the cops, which just gave them time to build a case against her. If I were Raffaele, I would rather be in the US for awhile until the dust settles, and I am sure they are not cooking up some new charges against me.