Vaccines: how do I talk to my anti-vac wife about it?

[truethat]

Well I think I've got it and as I said I have vaccinated my kids. But as dumb as I felt in this thread I feel even dumber now.

Oh well, hopefully we helped enlighten a few lurkers.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

You know I was bored today and may have played someone's dupe. I see our Dear Mr. JamesBuhls is an online psychic and reiki master. Since reiski is one of the groups that seem not to like modern medical science and prefers holistic health (that and your natal chart readings must come in handy for your pregnant wife) I'm curious how you reconcile all this with your strong ideas about how important vaccinations must be?

Hm.

How the hell do you know that's the same person?? and its really not relevant to bring it in.

 

[SezMe]

Also I will wager that some of the arguments that I have brought to light will go MUCH further than the typical vitriol and ham fisted slams of "statistics" I've seen thrown about on this site.

Why did you put quotes around the highlighted word?

 

[SezMe]

On the other hand I whole heartedly agree that you are the best judge of what works for your family (as long as you aren't trying prayer and going off the deep end with other ideas)....

Not vaccinating your kids IS going of the deep end.

 

[Drachasor]

How the hell do you know that's the same person?? and its really not relevant to bring it in.

In fact the Reiki person lives in North Carolina. The OP lives in Ontario and is a stay-at-home dad.

 

[truethat]

really cause that's not what I found.


ok now I feel kinda creepy so I'm taking it down.


but if this is what Reiki practices

Reiki is a simple, natural and safe method of spiritual healing and self-improvement that everyone can use. It has been effective in helping virtually every known illness and malady and always creates a beneficial effect. It also works in conjunction with all other medical or therapeutic techniques to relieve side effects and promote recovery.

I'm kinda suspect. Well enjoy the thread all.

 

[Drachasor]

really cause that's not what I found.


ok now I feel kinda creepy so I'm taking it down.


but if this is what Reiki practices

Reiki is stupid and just induces a placebo effect. The OP as best I can tell is not a practitioner. There is someone out there with the same first and last name that is, however.

 

[truethat]

who just happens to list the same city and country? as Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario

Yeah I'm pretty sure it's the same guy. Now I feel like crossed the line a bit. But bowing out.


Heads up to all the patient folks that contributed.

I did learn a few things new. One is that vaccines are different than contracting the disease because it sort of causes the immune system to preempt it, rather than waiting for a full blown infection. I didn't really understand that before.


And also the point that since we've been at war it's important to consider what kind of diseases may be coming back with our service men and women and the impact this could have.

Those were two great points.

Thanks all.

 

[NewtonTrino]

The simple fact is that a child who has been vaccinated is far safer than one that isn't even taking into account bad reactions to the vaccine (which are fairly rare btw).

As to how to get your wife to believe that? No idea. Again this is the kind of values difference that I have personally seen break up marriages. Is she kooky when it comes to all medicine or just vaccines?

 

[FattyCatty]

I can't speak for jamesbuhl's wife, but for me, I love the way vaccine's work. But at the same time, you cannot, absolutely CANNOT promise me that what I inject into my son will not be tainted in any way or will not have life threatening side effects. You just can't.

There are no 100% guarantees of anything except that we will all die someday. With that in mind, vaccines are still very safe; much safer that the disease for which they are given. According to the U.S. Center for Disease Control:

Measles and Rubella vs. MMR Vaccine

Even one serious adverse event in a million doses of vaccine cannot be justified if there is no benefit from the vaccination. If there were no vaccines, there would be many more cases of disease, and along with the more disease, there would be serious sequelae and more deaths. But looking at risk alone is not enough - you must always look at both risks and benefits. Comparing the risk from disease with the risk from the vaccines can give us an idea of the benefits we get from vaccinating our children.

DISEASE

Measles
Pneumonia: 6 in 100
Encephalitis: 1 in 1,000
Death: 2 in 1,000

Rubella
Congenital Rubella Syndrome: 1 in 4 (if woman becomes infected early in pregnancy)​

VACCINES

MMR

Encephalitis or severe allergic reaction: 1 in 1,000,000​

Diphtheria, Tetanus, and Pertussis vs. DTap Vaccine

DISEASE

Diphtheria
Death: 1 in 20

Tetanus
Death: 2 in 10

Pertussis
Pneumonia: 1 in 8
Encephalitis: 1 in 20
Death: 1 in 1,500​

VACCINES

DTaP
Continuous crying, then full recovery: 1 in 1000
Convulsions or shock, then full recovery: 1 in 14,000
Acute encephalopathy: 0-10.5 in 1,000,000
Death: None proven​

The fact is that a child is far more likely to be seriously injured by one of these diseases than by any vaccine. While any serious injury or death caused by vaccines is too many, it is also clear that the benefits of vaccination greatly outweigh the slight risk, and that many, many more injuries and deaths would occur without vaccinations. In fact, to have a medical intervention as effective as vaccination in preventing disease and not use it would be unconscionable.

So even though it's a game of odds, my odd's will be stacked on the likelihood that my child will NOT contract the disease. The older ones have virtually been wiped out. Although I have vaccinated my child, if I hadn't, the likelihood of him contracting this disease is practically nil because of the fact that most people in the US have had the vaccine.

So even if my child doesn't, his likelihood of contracting it is really no higher than someone who does.

I think this is the part that tends to piss off a lot of pro vaccine people. But it boils down to the facts.

If your child is not likely to be exposed to the virus and your child is in good health and lives in a society that mandates and encourages vaccination, honestly his likelihood of contracting the diseases are no higher than someone who HAS had the vaccine.


It's unfair and self centered but it is true is it not?

I think you're wrong in your assumptions. This is a good site for some general information:

In fact, certain diseases crop up so rarely now that parents sometimes ask if vaccines are even necessary anymore. This is just one common misconception about immunizations. The truth is, most diseases that can be prevented by vaccines still exist in the world, even in the United States, although they occur rarely.

The reality is that vaccinations still play a crucial role in keeping kids healthy. Unfortunately, misinformation about vaccines could make some parents decide not to immunize their children, putting them and others at a greater risk for illness.

I'm not necessarily afraid of anything.


But the fact stands. If a person doesn't inoculate their child, they are honestly no more at risk than their peers because the nature of the vaccination has, for all intents and purposes wiped out the disease from likely being spread.


I keep going back to the LIKELIHOOD of you contracting the illness and it's been ignored again and again.


Frankly the fact that you think it's no big deal that someone injected insulin into someone instead of H1N1 vaccine or that it couldn't potentially be life threatening is strange.

It certainly could make someone sick no? Isn't that what the vaccine is attempting to prevent?

I think Giordano addressed part of what you talked about here:

From CDC, only searching for Pertusis outbreaks. European outbreaks not included:

In 2010, 9,143 cases of pertussis (including ten infant deaths) were reported throughout California. This is the most cases reported in 63 years when 9,394 cases were reported in 1947 and the highest incidence in 52 years when a rate of 26.0 cases/100,000 was reported in 1958. Previously, the peak was in 2005 when there were 3,182 cases reported. In 2011, disease activity is still at relatively increased levels throughout the state. Visit the California Department of Public Health website for the most recent information.
In Michigan, an increase in pertussis was first observed in the second half of 2008, continued throughout 2009, and continued throughout 2010. This is on top of a long term rising trend in the reported number of pertussis cases since about 1990. In 2010 there were 1,564 cases. In 2009 (for the complete year) there were 902 cases reported. In 2008 there were 315 cases reported. Visit the Michigan Department of Community Health website for the most recent information.
In Ohio, Columbus Public Health (CPH) and Franklin County Board of Health (FCBH) responded to an outbreak of pertussis during 2010 and 2011. In 2010, there were 964 cases reported by Columbus and Franklin Counties. This is the most cases reported in 25 years. Through April 9, 2011, 144 cases of pertussis were reported. For the most recent information, visit the Columbus Public Health web site.
<snip>

Is Pertusis something that is covered by vaccinations in the US the way MMRI and Hep B are? I'm unfamiliar with it.

Pertussis is whooping cough. It is protected against by the DTaP (diptheria, tetnus, and pertussis) vaccine.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/downloads/vis-dtap.pdf

Can you check this out btw. I thought it was interesting that they wrote




You can understand why this would freak a mother out no?

You should have read more, truehat; they also wrote:

What are the risks from DTaP vaccine?

Getting diphtheria, tetanus, or pertussis disease is much riskier than getting DTaP vaccine.

However, a vaccine, like any medicine, is capable of causing serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions. The risk of DTaP vaccine causing serious harm, or death, is extremely small.

I don't understand, truehat, why your reply to Giordano's post ignored the information on pertussis (whooping cough) outbreaks, including the 10 infant deaths in California in 2010. These deaths were the direct result of people not immunizing themselves and their children. I'm glad you say your children are immunized.

So this is your real argument. That parent should vaccinate their children in case people take their children to India and bathe in the ganges and then come back and expose them to it?


Most people in the United States do not travel abroad. I'm sure you know this because most people in the US don't even move outside three zones away from where they grew up. Sad but true.

At the same time, my premise is always based on the LIKELIHOOD that you can contract the disease.

There must be viruses rampant in Sudan that Americans aren't vaccinated against? Why, because it is unlikely that we will travel there. At the same time, one of the Centers for Tropical Diseases is located in Elmhurst Queens because of the large number of immigrants in this area.

We also have issues with tuberculosis rising in this area as well.

This is why I'm up on most of my inoculations with my kids. My son's elementary school has 5,000 students in it, many of whom travel to the middle east, China or South America for the holidays.


I would be one who should inoculate. So I do.

But why is someone who lives in a small community in the midwest, a "stupid idiot" who is "risking her kid's life" by not vaccinating?


I'd say she's being reasonable.

Again, I think your assumptions (and your reasoning) are wrong. According to the U.S. Center for Disease Control:

MISCONCEPTION #5. Vaccine-preventable diseases have been virtually eliminated from the United States, so there is no need for my child to be vaccinated.
<snip>
We should still be vaccinated, then, for two reasons. The first is to protect ourselves. Even if we think our chances of getting any of these diseases are small, the diseases still exist and can still infect anyone who is not protected. Travelers are especially vulnerable. A few years ago a 63 year old U.S. traveler to Haiti caught diphtheria and died -he had never been vaccinated. In 2005 and 2006, outbreaks of measles and mumps occurred in several states within the U.S. The measles outbreak began in a group of travelers (who had not been vaccinated) upon their return from a trip to Romania where they had been exposed to measles.

The second reason to get vaccinated is to protect those around us. A small number of persons cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons such as a severe allergy to vaccine components, and a small percentage simply do not respond to vaccines. These persons are susceptible to disease, and their only hope of protection is that people around them have been successfully vaccinated and cannot pass disease along to them. A successful vaccination program, like a successful society, depends on the cooperation of every individual to ensure the good for all. We would think it irresponsible of a driver to ignore all traffic regulations on the presumption that other drivers will watch out for him or her. In the same way, we shouldn't rely on people around us to stop the spread of disease if we ourselves can be vaccinated. We must all do what we can.

 

[truethat]

Awesome Fatty! Someone ought to book mark that forever and ever. I'm going to paste it on my wall.

ETA

it's too long. Thanks for all the sources in that and the info.

 

[LarianLeQuella]

FattyCatty is linking to the same page I have been. FattyCatty was just much more diligent than I was in pasting the info over. Again:

Vaccines: 1 chance in 1 or 2 MILLION of adverse effects

Disease: 1 in 500 to 10,000 of adverse effects.

The choice is yours (but sadly not your child's).

 

[truethat]

FattyCatty is linking to the same page I have been. FattyCatty was just much more diligent than I was in pasting the info over. Again:

Vaccines: 1 chance in 1 or 2 MILLION of adverse effects

Disease: 1 in 500 to 10,000 of adverse effects.

The choice is yours (but sadly not your child's).

More emotional manipulating. Are you talking to me? Because you do know that I have given my kids all their vaccines. I will not be giving the H1N1 unless it turns up again as a risk.

Or are you trying to post some sort of "Public Service Announcement?"

Or just talk to the OP who allegedly is in agreement with vaccines.

So who exactly is this "Sadly" aimed at? I'm curious?


Also I am not asking for the statistics of side effects if you get the disease. This is why I got quite repetitive. I AM ASKING FOR THE ODDS THAT YOU WILL CONTRACT THIS DISEASE IF YOU HAVEN'T BEEN IMMUNIZED.


Because I think that it's a whole lot less than the number posted. And I find it frustrating that I still can't get a simple answer.


Here is the first link I pulled up.

http://www.jonbarron.org/immunity/bl110811/measles-outbreak-MMR-vaccine-risks


Upon reading this seems suspect, is it? Measels vaccines have never been linked to autism is that right? Why would she say this in the article. Can you see why it can be confusing for someone trying to look up a number?

This is why I prefer to ask you guys.

 

[Alt+F4]

Hi, folks; can you offer me some help? The trouble is that my wife and I disagree on the importance of vaccines: I think children should be vaccinated, and she thinks vaccines are deadly. She so strongly opposes vaccines that she has said she would leave me before she agreed to vaccinate our children. She has one child from a former spouse, and she's pregnant with our first right now.

Every time I talk to her about vaccines, she tells me stories about how vaccines are at best worthless and at worst fatal - that the incidence of disease goes down due to public sanitation improvements, not vaccination campaigns. She's read a lot of stuff and tells me about all the anti-vac stuff she's read, but it's always a, "I read a (book / report / study / article) by this (guy / doctor / magazine / health group / researcher) that shows vaccines (cause autism / induce fits of paralysis / injure the child / kill the child / other bad stuff)."

She even pulls this story out about how she took one of her cats who up until this point had been completely healthy to get vaccinated for feline leukemia and who after the vaccination came down with feline leukemia and died thus proving that vaccines are a fraud. It's even worse because her mother is of the same opinion and the two reinforce each other's beliefs.

I don't know how to talk to her about this; I've done my reading on JREF and Quackwatch and shown her the reports that so many anti-vac reports are bogus (or the doctors who wrote them are discredited), but she doesn't hear any of it. She's totally convinced that vaccines are dangerous and no matter how I try to broach the subject she gets really hostile and shuts down the conversation.

I feel like I'm in a really tough position because from what I've read I believe vaccines to be really important and safe, but from what my wife has read she believes they're the biggest and most dangerous scam of the 20th century. We both love our children, but I feel like she's the one putting them in harm's way. Can anybody here recommend conversation starters, sound arguments, or other methods of helping her come off the anti-vac wagon?

Hi James, and welcome to the forum. I'm afraid you have mostly come to the wrong place. I've not read even one reply to your OP but I'm sure many of the replies have called your wife stupid, ignorant, a nut-case and she should just accept the science! I'm from an anti-vacc family and I can tell you that none of those approaches work. My suggestion is to just gently lean her towards the most important vaccines (MMR) and then leave it at that.

 

[Travis]

It's been awhile since I've actually seen someone argue that we should cause a tragedy of the commons.


And I always wonder what an anti-vaxxer would do if they were bit by an obviously rabid animal?

 

[Alt+F4]

And I always wonder what an anti-vaxxer would do if they were bit by an obviously rabid animal?

Good question. My answer would be that if an anti-vacc parent had a child what was bitten by say a rattlesnake they would allow their child to receive anti-venom. The logic being that the immunity does not occur in the person that was bitten, but rather in the animal host. I'm not saying I agree with this, I'm saying I think this would be the thinking involved.

 

[truethat]

It's been awhile since I've actually seen someone argue that we should cause a tragedy of the commons.


And I always wonder what an anti-vaxxer would do if they were bit by an obviously rabid animal?

I think that the "odds of contracting the illness" being offset by the "odds of contracting an illness from getting the vaccine" would answer that question.

When you take anti-venom or get a rabies shot, there is no question whether it is prudent to do so.

So why would you wonder that?

Curious

 

[Estellea]

Also I am not asking for the statistics of side effects if you get the disease. This is why I got quite repetitive. I AM ASKING FOR THE ODDS THAT YOU WILL CONTRACT THIS DISEASE IF YOU HAVEN'T BEEN IMMUNIZED.

Because I think that it's a whole lot less than the number posted. And I find it frustrating that I still can't get a simple answer.

Ask a question, you get an answer, sort of. Since you don't specify a disease, I chose measles in the U.S. which stands at ~204 cases, more than 90% of those were unvaccinated and the estimated unvaccinated population in the U.S. is roughly 5.2 million so that gives you a risk of contracting measles of 1:29,000 if you are unvaccinated for measles. This is a conservative estimate since exposure only occurred in smaller sub-populations.

Here is the first link I pulled up.

http://www.jonbarron.org/immunity/bl110811/measles-outbreak-MMR-vaccine-risks

Upon reading this seems suspect, is it? Measels vaccines have never been linked to autism is that right? Why would she say this in the article. Can you see why it can be confusing for someone trying to look up a number?

This is why I prefer to ask you guys.

Yup, very suspect. Just another product-shilling, self-styled snake-oil salesman who wants to give the appearance of "fair, balanced and on your side". All you have to do is poke about his website for 30 seconds and see what kind of crap he is selling, not to mention his rather extraordinary claims. There is no credible research that finds any link between MMR and autism.

Este

 

[truethat]

Ask a question, you get an answer, sort of. Since you don't specify a disease, I chose measles in the U.S. which stands at ~204 cases, more than 90% of those were unvaccinated and the estimated unvaccinated population in the U.S. is roughly 5.2 million so that gives you a risk of contracting measles of 1:29,000 if you are unvaccinated for measles. This is a conservative estimate since exposure only occurred in smaller sub-populations.


Yup, very suspect. Just another product-shilling, self-styled snake-oil salesman who wants to give the appearance of "fair, balanced and on your side". All you have to do is poke about his website for 30 seconds and see what kind of crap he is selling, not to mention his rather extraordinary claims. There is no credible research that finds any link between MMR and autism.

Este

Thank you for the response. Usually I try to do a bit of my own research but in this case I'm often confused so I prefer to ask people who know what they are talking about.


Thanks this helps fill in the blanks.

 

[SezMe]

I've not read even one reply to your OP but I'm sure many of the replies have called your wife stupid, ignorant, a nut-case and she should just accept the science!

Wow! You have no data but are "sure" about something. Something that you could get 100% of the data required to support your claim with just a few mouse clicks.