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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I wonder if it was wise for Mignini to talk about "fairy tales". If anything sounds like a fairy tale in this saga it's this bizarre story of a couple of middle-class students who had only known each other a few days (and barely had a common language) leaving their love-nest on a chilly evening, hooking up with someone they barely knew, and the three of them ganging up to murder the girl's room-mate. And that's not even mentioning the two students staying behind to stage a burglary in the exact modus operandi of their acquaintance, and then magically cleaning up all their own DNA but leaving the acquaintance's. And all the rest.

Start talking fairy-tales, and people might take that thought a bit further.

Rolfe.

Good point. Multiply the world's students by the number of nights they are students (over 1000) and you get a number that is in the billions. Out of those billions of nights, how many murders of this type have happened? The probability is virtually zero. The probability that there are multiple people involved without a proven conspiracy is also next to zero. That people are involved (two no less) with no forensic evidence is zero, it doesn't happen. That people are guilty without a witnesses is slim. Without motive, slim.

Put the whole mess together and it proves the prosecutors and police are guilty, guilty, guilty!
 
Although I understand Italian, the audio is very poor. It sounds like he's referring to Curatolo, mocking how he went to the police station pushing a pram and seemed like an ailing Al Capone. I think it might be some reference to the film "The Untouchables", but as I don't remember much about that film, I can't work it out, sorry.
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In the news stories, Ghirga, in deriding Curatolo's credibility, is supposed to have described him as

Al Capone in a wheelchair. (Al Capone in carrozzella.)

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The Italian System includes a three trial system, though the Supreme Court is only to handle legal issues. The prosecution can appeal it to the Supreme Court, and it goes there automatically on behalf of the defense, but it is only to consider the legal ramifications of the decision, to ensure that it has been correctly arrived at through the bitter auspices of Italian Law.

I'd be interested to see how many acquittals were overturned at the Supreme Court level, it would really surprise me if it was many.


The Supreme Court doesn't "overturn" the verdicts of the lower courts as such. If it agrees that there were judicial/legal errors in the lower courts which might have had a material effect on the verdict, it will typically refer the case back down to appeal court level for a retrial. And it's not a mandatory step in the event of acquittal at the appeal court level. It will basically be up to the prosecution to judge whether there are potential grounds for appeal to the Supreme Court. I doubt very much whether the Supreme Court would treat a vexatious appeal by prosecutors very kindly.

So what will happen once Knox/Sollecito are acquitted is as follows: they will definitely be released from prison. They will almost certainly be unencumbered in their liberty. If prosecutors decide to appeal to the Supreme Court, that will all take place in the absence of Knox and Sollecito. If the Supreme Court were to decide that judicial/legal errors rendered the appeal court acquittal verdict unsound, then it would simply order a retrial at the appeal court level. It could not and would not just convict Knox/Sollecito. Knox and Sollecito would therefore have to reappear in front of another trial similar to the Hellmann trial. And that trial would find for guilt or non-guilt of its own accord.
 
Yes.
There the Supreme Court can even order a new trial. On the first degree. :)


Not on the first degree. The Supreme Court can only order a retrial - it can't convict on its own authority of findings of fact (that's not its function). What the Supreme Court will do if it were to find procedural/legal impropriety in the lower courts would be to refer the case back to the appeal court. It certainly wouldn't go back to square one. There would be an appeal trial exactly similar to the current Hellman trial, and any verdict of that new appeal trial would also go up to the Supreme Court for examination. If the Supreme Court found that the new appeal trial had made judicial/legal errors, then it would refer the case down once again to the appeal court level. And so on. But once the Supreme Court decides that the law and criminal codes have been properly followed and applied, then it confirms guilt or non-guilt and the process is over.
 
Saw this link on PMF : Hope the jury does not share this Italian misconception:

http://www.aciclico.com/approfondimenti/amanda-knox-un-milione-di-dollari-per-cambiare-immagine.html


I wonder if Mignini the Magnificent has some sort of proof for this inflammatory statement of fact that he made in open court (about the million-dollar PR campaign)? Because if it turns out that he was doing no more than repeating rumour and hysteria invented by certain pro-guilt commentators, he might find this mistake added to the list of things that will contribute to the extinguishing of his career. I have a funny feeling that I already know the answer to my own question though......
 
three really bad precedents

Is this only a story because she's hot, like Casey Anthony and that chick in Aruba?
NoahFence,

Welcome to the discussion. It is facile to compare Knox to Anthony; Rudy Guede is more like Casey Anthony. Both are serial liars who spent (or will spend) less time in custody than they should have. If the original verdict in the case stands, three very bad precedents involving DNA forensics may be set. One is that do-it-yourself low template profiling will be treated as being just as good as the real McCoy: LCN profiling. Two is that the prosecution will get to decide that the defense really does not need to see the raw data, the machine logs, or the operating procedures. In other words, the principle of discovery will be eroded. Three is that egregiously bad collection techniques will carry no penalty so long as one cannot pinpoint the exact moment that contamination occurred.

I could go on in this vein, but I hope you see my point.
 
Hammer toe

I'm happy with the defense's argument against the bathmat print. Although this argument is already present in the appeal documents, it needed to be stressed again in the court because the prosecutors apparently spent much of their time focusing on the print.

Contrary to prosecution claims, there was never a "hammer toe" print incriminating Sollecito. Merely a blood drop at the tip of the toe print where the prosecution expert played "connect the dots" with. He created the hammer toe with his own suspect-centric imagination. Ignoring his imagination and looking at the actual toe print, it is a thin toe and thus a far closer match to Rudy Guede's big toe. What a phony "expert".

However, the bra clasp arguments could have been stronger. The independent experts mention more than just three unknown contributors to the mixed profile, but at least 8 and possibly as many as 17. That would have strengthened the contamination argument. Hopefully, the judges have not forgotten what their experts said in regards to this as those details were not mentioned in the report but only revealed at trial.

Little disappointed in the arguments relating to the luminol footprints. There is evidence that can positively exclude Amanda as the print maker and this again was not mentioned. Her second toe is clearly much bigger than the one seen in the clear luminol print. It is not hers and certainly not Sollecito's. Unless another woman was involved, one must conclude that those prints could not have been made in Meredith's blood but some other type of substance that reacts to luminol.

I must say though, I don't have much hope. The prosecution has used a mountain of smoke and mirrors "evidence" in this trial and there's strong doubt in me that the judges will be able to see through it. After all, the last judges didn't.
 
Wow, I hadn't been following this case at all until today. What a massive derp fest. No DNA evidence, no motive, no murder weapon, AND they caught the guy who really did it...SHE MUST BE GUILTY HERP A DERP.

I hate to say it, but I think a lot of the clowns I've seen condemning this woman are just doing it because she's both pretty and slightly weird and that grates them on some level.
 
Not on the first degree. The Supreme Court can only order a retrial - it can't convict on its own authority of findings of fact (that's not its function). What the Supreme Court will do if it were to find procedural/legal impropriety in the lower courts would be to refer the case back to the appeal court. It certainly wouldn't go back to square one. There would be an appeal trial exactly similar to the current Hellman trial, and any verdict of that new appeal trial would also go up to the Supreme Court for examination. If the Supreme Court found that the new appeal trial had made judicial/legal errors, then it would refer the case down once again to the appeal court level. And so on. But once the Supreme Court decides that the law and criminal codes have been properly followed and applied, then it confirms guilt or non-guilt and the process is over.


I thought that's what you said. That seems convoluted, but logical. Someone over on PMF was implying, I thought, that if the Supreme Court found fault with the Hellman judgement, that this would automatically and irrevocably reinstate the Massei verdict. Which is nuts.

Rolfe.
 
...All they're doing is literally taking their own moral and legal failings and re-framing them as Amanda's failings...

That's a keeper. Thank you. You hit the nail on the head, in my opinion.

Bravo, Bri. Add me to however many others have also admired the insight and trenchancy of your comment. And, if you don't mind, may I add to it, "logical failings"?

You were referring to the lawyers in court. But, as an aside, it probably applies equally to the cultie haters who have filled their otherwise empty lives by devoting them to haranguing Knox and her poor family from behind the barricades of their cloistered internet sects.
 
I thought that's what you said. That seems convoluted, but logical. Someone over on PMF was implying, I thought, that if the Supreme Court found fault with the Hellman judgement, that this would automatically and irrevocably reinstate the Massei verdict. Which is nuts.

Rolfe.

Legal analysis from PMF obviously needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Let's not forget, their own moderator said that if Knox was acquitted, she wouldn't be leaving Italy any time soon because of the Calunnia charges against her (from claiming she was hit). Obviously that's ridiculous, and as we've seen today by Migmig's hilarious statement today, even he knows that isn't true.
 
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Wow, I hadn't been following this case at all until today. What a massive derp fest. No DNA evidence, no motive, no murder weapon, AND they caught the guy who really did it...SHE MUST BE GUILTY HERP A DERP.

I hate to say it, but I think a lot of the clowns I've seen condemning this woman are just doing it because she's both pretty and slightly weird and that grates them on some level.



From what I've read, guilters who are not well informed about the details of this case condemn her because of the "race" issue. Comments about Amanda on blogs like Jezebel.com often include attacks on her race (like "pretty, rich white woman") because they take great offense to her "accusation" against an innocent black man. Often they'll liken her accusation to Susan Smith who falsely alleged that a black stranger kidnapped her kids. Of course, nothing like that happened with Knox but the uniformed guilters can't seem to get past that the race part. It's a shame because the race factor drove away potential support from many of the "anti-racist" feminists. In a case filled with so much misogyny, more feminist awareness was needed.
 
Wow, I hadn't been following this case at all until today. What a massive derp fest. No DNA evidence, no motive, no murder weapon, AND they caught the guy who really did it...SHE MUST BE GUILTY HERP A DERP.

I hate to say it, but I think a lot of the clowns I've seen condemning this woman are just doing it because she's both pretty and slightly weird and that grates them on some level.

You got it.

And it only took you a day -- in stark contrast to the people who still haven't gotten it after nearly four years.
 
On that quote where Mignini is saying that the court should not acquit Knox, because she will flee the country and there is still another step -- isn't that kind of like him trying to tell Hellmann what the law is? Doesn't Hellmann fully understand what the steps are? And why would he care if Knox can leave if he and the jurors think she is innocent? Doesn't he know full well that the Supreme Court portion does not decide on guilt or innocence, just on the legal details?

It seems like a desperation play to me.
 
Wow, I hadn't been following this case at all until today. What a massive derp fest. No DNA evidence, no motive, no murder weapon, AND they caught the guy who really did it...SHE MUST BE GUILTY HERP A DERP.

I hate to say it, but I think a lot of the clowns I've seen condemning this woman are just doing it because she's both pretty and slightly weird and that grates them on some level.


Go to the top of the class. A tick and a gold star. Go it in one, basically. Masterly summing-up.

Rolfe.
 
I thought that's what you said. That seems convoluted, but logical. Someone over on PMF was implying, I thought, that if the Supreme Court found fault with the Hellman judgement, that this would automatically and irrevocably reinstate the Massei verdict. Which is nuts.

Rolfe.


I hadn't (and haven't) read the post you are referring to here, but if they were implying what you say, then they are incorrect. Once Knox and Sollecito are acquitted, there are actually a large number of distinct steps that would need to happen in order for them to end up being convicted, and the process could break down in their favour at any one of those steps. Here's what would have to happen:

1) The prosecution would have to decide whether there are even credible grounds for an appeal to the Supreme Court (a Supreme Court appeal is not automatic in the case of acquittal at appeal court level - it's entirely in the hands of the prosecutors).

2) In making this decision about whether to appeal, prosecutors will have to be able to identify specific potential misapplications of law or procedure. Prosecutors cannot just say "We appeal" without giving specific grounds. And if they don't have proper grounds for even making an appeal, I suspect that this will have negative raminfications for them (vexatious appeals etc).

3) If prosecutors decide in the cold light of day that there are actually no valid grounds for appeal, then they will announce that they do not intend to appeal the verdict. At that point, the whole thing will finally be over for Knox and Sollecito.

4) If prosecutors do indeed apply to the Supreme Court, the appeal will be heard in camera. The Supreme Court judges will assess the appeal points raised by the prosecutors, and will decide whether the appeal has merit.

4) If the Supreme Court judges judge that the appeal has no merit, they will announce this, dismiss the appeal, and confirm the verdict of the appeal court (i.e. acquittal). And that will be that for Knox and Sollecito. There is no right of appeal against the verdict of the Supreme Court.

5) However, if the Supreme Court decide that the appeal has merit, they will then have to decide whether any judicial/legal errors were sufficiently significant as to have potentially influenced the verdict.

6) If the Supreme Court judges decide that even though there were some errors, they were not sufficiently significant as to have potentially affected the verdict, they will announce that they are satisfied with the verdict of the Hellmann court (while highlighting the errors). And they will confirm the acquittals, and it will be all over for Knox/Sollecito.

7) If, however, the Supreme Court find that there were errors, and that these errors potentially affected the verdict, then they will announce that the Hellmann Appeal trial was improperly conducted.

8) In the case of (7) above, the Supreme Court will refer the case back to the appeal court level, so that a second appeal trial can be conducted. In effect, the Supreme Court will nullify the verdict of the Hellmann Court. It cannot and will not overturn that verdict.

9) And in the case of (7) and (8), Knox and Sollecito will have to go through the entire appeal trial process once again. And all the same rules listed above will apply to the verdict of that second appeal trial.


Incidentally, on my drive back from Brighton to London late this afternoon, my satnav directed me round Croydon due to traffic build-up. I glanced across as I completed my detour back towards my expected route, and realised that I was driving right past the gates of Croydon Cemetery, which is where Meredith is buried. I very briefly thought of turning in and trying to find her grave, but it is an absolutely huge cemetery, and in any case I was beyond the gates in heavy traffic before I'd even weighed things up properly. But of course I thought of her, and of her poor family. And I thought of the way in which the Perugia police and prosecutors have made the Kerchers' grief far worse and longer-lasting than it might have been.
 
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