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Race is a human/social construct.

I was under the impression that genetic testing could determine a person's ancestry, particularly whether they have Asiatic, African, Caucasian, Hispanic, and multiple lineages. Is this true? If so, isn't this equivalent to saying race is a genetic trait or traits?
I've got a video on this. I'll dig it up.

No, at best it can follow a single maternal (mother's mother's mother's....) and paternal line. But that's irrelevant. Let's assume we know every one of my ancestor's lineage, if my Grandmother on my mother's side was German. My Grandfather on my mother's side was Native American. My Grandmother on my father's side was San Bush from the Kalahari and my Grandfather on my father's side was Chinese what is my race?

  • Human existence is one great melting pot.
  • Even if it wasn't the differences are small and superficial.
 
Almost forgot the impetus for the thread. I said:

That should read "There is no statistically significant genetic difference between humans based on class, race, etc."

I'm sorry if it is moving the goal posts but the questioner proposed that perhaps my statement was poorly worded and perhaps it was. In any event I stand by the former but I am much more confident that I can defend the later.

I'll play devil's advocate for a minute...

Isn't this a matter for science to decide? If there were significant genetic differences among races, then wouldn't it be possible to test for them? If such tests have been done, then don't we have the results of the tests to settle the matter? If such tests have not been done, then isn't this assertion unfounded?
 
I'll play devil's advocate for a minute...

1Isn't this a matter for science to decide? 2If there were significant genetic differences among races, then wouldn't it be possible to test for them? 3If such tests have been done, then don't we have the results of the tests to settle the matter? 4If such tests have not been done, then isn't this assertion unfounded?

  1. Yes.
  2. Yes (and we could falsify the proposition that there are significant differences and we have).
  3. Yes
  4. Moot.
Watch the video posted by Tony.
 
Dr. John R. Baker the author of Race (1974) would disagree.

RandFan, where is your PhD?
 
The genetic differences are a fact:
- the colour of skin gene(s)
- the hair colour and type gene(s)
- ehh, maybe something else too

Which word is best for describing the fact, iduncare. Some people use it as a pretext for thinking evil of some people. Their problem, and without one pretext they would probably invent some other.

Yeah, but you don't bother classifying blonde and dark-haired people as different races. Or for that matter, you don't classify Blue & Tan and red Australian Terriers into different races/subspecies, you classify them as red or Blue & tan Australian Terriers.

Given the amount of intermixing and such that goes on, as well as variance within races, it would be extremely difficult to systematically classify people, except by superficial judgment. It wouldn't be terribly useful.

What you CAN speak of is that people who originate from a special region have a greater or lesser than average likelihood of having a specific allele. But it's very difficult to generalize those many traits over a lot of people, and still come out with a meaningful classification.
 
Dr. John R. Baker the author of Race (1974) would disagree.

RandFan, where is your PhD?
Argument from authority. Ad hominem poisoning the well. Your post is 100% fallacy. Could you make a logically valid argument?
 
Argument from authority. Ad hominem poisoning the well. Your post is 100% fallacy. Could you make a logically valid argument?

Baker’s book contradicts you assertion. You can ignore it if you like, others here will investigate it for themselves. I make no claims to be an authority on racial anthropology so I defer to experts.

You are welcomed to your opinion on race even if it is based on ignorance.
 
Baker’s book contradicts you assertion. You can ignore it if you like, others here will investigate it for themselves. I make no claims to be an authority on racial anthropology so I defer to experts.

You are welcomed to your opinion on race even if it is based on ignorance.

Ooooo.... You sure you wanna do that MaGZ? I mean if we go by Baker then I'm black. Now as you know I'm married to a woman who is related to Adolf Eichmann. A champion of the "master race" if there ever was one. Now that's one thing... but as I type this she's alternating between a large hazel nut chocolate bar & a bowl of pork rinds.

She normally hates pork rinds but she's been... craving... them lately. Because there is a teeny, tiny, human being growing in her womb. (i gotta pause a minute because the grin is making my face hurt.)

...

...

K, now if we are gonna go by Baker's work, that means a black guy's blood will be mixed with Eichmann's...

Tee Hee.
 
Baker’s book contradicts you assertion.

  • Baker's claims are not in evidence.
  • Whatever arguments he may or not have made are disputed by other experts (MOST other experts).
You can ignore it if you like, others here will investigate it for themselves. I make no claims to be an authority on racial anthropology so I defer to experts.
THAT'S the appeal to authority I was talking about and your experts are in the minority and their arguments and evidence are vacuous.

You are welcomed to your opinion on race even if it is based on ignorance.
All of my information comes from anthropologists.

Anthropology.net

Race, although it does not exist in the world in any ontologically objective way, it still is real in society (as opposed to nature). Race is a social construction that has real consequences and effects. These effects, consequences and the notion that race is ontologically subjective is epistemologically objective. We know that race is something that is real in society, and that it shapes the way we see ourselves and others. Many rightly claim that race is conceptually unstable. However, this should not lead us to skepticism about race, i.e. that we cannot have any objective knowledge about race. We can know what race is and how it works regardless of the various shifts in meaning that have occurred through history and occur geographically.
 
RandFan you and I just went through this a few months ago, have you forgotten?

I thought we came to an agreement that it does exist, though we should use the term "ethnicity" instead of the less clear term "race".

Start reading that thread from this post:

I'm not quite sure that I agree with that quote. Isn't there a scientific definition?

It was used in reference to a DNA Haplogroup test in a Discover magazine article that I referred to in a previous "Universal common ancestry" thread. The races (ethnicities, if you prefer) migration through history was tested and charted.

I remember it being specifically used in one of the conclusions from the testing:


Human races are evolving away from each other. We are getting less alike, not merging into a single mixed humanity.



Did you see the latter part of my post you quoted? I thought that, scientifically, race means the same thing as ethnicity which doesn't just include "melanine content".

That would fall under the "characteristics".

It was one of 4 criteria: "as distinguished by customs, characteristics, language, common history". As seen in the chart linked to above.

So do you agree that we should use the word ethnicity instead?
 
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  • Baker's claims are not in evidence.
  • Whatever arguments he may or not have made are disputed by other experts (MOST other experts).
THAT'S the appeal to authority I was talking about and your experts are in the minority and their arguments and evidence are vacuous.

All of my information comes from anthropologists.

You information comes from a website that anyone could put up on the Internet.

Question: Is you opinion on race consistent with those who are cultural Marxists?
 
RandFan you and I just went through this a few months ago, have you forgotten?

I thought we came to an agreement that it does exist, though we should use the term "ethnicity" instead of the less clear term "race".

Start reading that thread from this post:

I agreed to accept ethnicity as being largely cultural with correlating phenotypes. A useful anthropological term but not an appropriate justification to categorize people beyond superficial and cultural differences.

Further, as I've learned since then, given the amount of genetic shuffling the phenotype differences are more insignificant than I originally thought.

In any event, given the racial prejudice and ignorance of those who try to use differences like skin color or eye shape to justify prejudice and bigotry it's very important to revisit this subject regularly.
 
You information comes from a website that anyone could put up on the Internet.
The website provides data and arguments that you can actually see. Your "book" is nothing, zero, Nada, Zip. We don't even know if you've read it given you can't even do anything more than refer to the book. You can't make an argument or state relevant data so your book is actually worse than nothing. It's a red herring.

Question: Is you opinion on race consistent with those who are cultural Marxists?
Question: Do you know what fallacy is? Do you know what guilt by association or ad hominem poisoning the well is?
 
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Scientific consensus:
Massive warning flag there: Claiming to have "scientific consensus" is routine for people who are arguing for things that have no actual scientific support. As it turns out, the rest of your post wasn't too horribly unreasonable, but it would still be best from a communications/linguistic standpoint to avoid phrasing that just screams "Don't take me seriously, I'm a quack".

Had humans remained isolated in groups there might be an argument for race stronger than there is now. However, the fact is that we have shuffled our genetic decks so much since humans began exploring, conquering and mixing with the rest of world that the idea is beyond any redemption
That wildly overstates the effect that transportation technology has had on genetic mixing so far. In most places, mixing has not progressed very far yet, so the local population's composition is still pretty close to what it was before Columbus (or a nearly total replacement of natives with immigrants), and by far most individuals' ancestry is pretty easy to identify. I don't deny that mixing has happened, more in some places than in others, but to claim that this has eradicated the races yet is just simply not being honest. If that were true, those differences you dismiss as "superficial" would not be merely superficial; they'd be gone. For that to happen will, at current rates, take millennia (at least).

But I will leave it at that for the moment and invite arguments to rebut the idea that race is anything more than human based classifications...
We're humans, so any classification we come up with, including all of the ones you accept as perfectly real, will be human-based, in exactly the same way that this one is. But what does that have to do with any such classification's accuracy or inaccuracy at describing reality?

...for the purpose of anthropological understanding of genetics/health/populations
What else do you say anybody has ever claimed it is? Race denials that I've seen before always hinge on an assertion that there's some other meaning for the word "race" in this context other than a few large regional groups of people with internally shared ancestry (and thus biologically inherited traits) distinct from other such groups. But they can never explain exactly what else beyond that is allegedly part of the word's meaning, nevermind providing any support for the claim that it is what the word somehow really means or a single dictionary defining it that way or anybody actually using the word that way in real life.

If you disagree with me... you are going to have to make some compelling arguments in favor of race that isn't simply... bias or prejudice.
You're the one claiming that common knowledge and everyday casual observation is a delusion or a lie, equivalent to claiming the sky isn't blue and what goes up doesn't come down; that's taking the burden of proof upon yourself. But I'll play along anyway...

Your challenge is based, as race denial demands always are, on a straw man. You ask for evidence of something beyond the observable sets of inherited traits in the bodies of humans born to populations that evolved in different regions of the world. But nobody I know of has ever claimed any such thing. We only claim the mundane part that you're insisting on looking beyond: that human populations that have been established in different regions of the world have evolved different observable sets of physical (including chemical) traits. You seem to have have already stipulated that these are real, so it seems that I don't need to prove it to you; I'm only asserting the existence of what you've already said exist. You've dismissed them as unimportant or superficial or such, but those are not the same thing as non-existent, and address things that are not part of my claim or that of anybody else I know of.

However, since it's been said in this thread that there are just a few phenotypic traits such as hair texture, this seems like a good place to point out how much more there is to it than that. Here's a map showing distinct sets of hundreds of mutually highly correlated genes apiece. (These are just the ones that were known several years ago. A lot more have been discovered since then, but maps like these haven't been made each time more are discovered and the list of genes in these groups gets longer, partly because it's happened too frequently lately, and partly because it isn't even newsworthy anymore; anybody who's been paying any attention to genetics already knows about these large genetic clusters, so there's no sense in another merely showing that they exist and where in the world they're found.) Identifying genes only by their correlations with each other found these groups which just happen to fall into the same geographic areas that were already known to be the homes of the different human races based on gross anatomy before genetics existed. There are no other such genetic groups in any other geographic distribution.

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Purely linguistic note: Some of these genes control the classic "superficial" traits; skin color, for example, is controlled by about a half-dozen genes. However, some others affect the immune system and digestive enzymes and so on, which are real, actual differences between people who are members of different races but are pretty thoroughly internal and not visibly obvious, so they can't all accurately be called "superficial." Also, the functions of many of these genes aren't even known yet; all we know about them is their correlations with each other. If one wants to be dismissive about them, one could honestly call them unimportant or insignificant or minute or a small fraction of all human variation, but not superficial because they're not all visible from the outside.

So, your mission, race realists, if you are going to rebut the proposition...
I don't rebut the proposition. I rebut the idea that asking for a rebuttal of the proposition even makes any sense, since it asks us to support an idea that isn't what we think and isn't even defined in any detail other than as something we don't think (because it asks for something beyond that which is the entirety of our position on this subject).

I was under the impression that genetic testing could determine a person's ancestry, particularly whether they have Asiatic, African, Caucasian, Hispanic, and multiple lineages. Is this true? If so, isn't this equivalent to saying race is a genetic trait or traits?
Yes. Race deniers spend lots of words trying to get away from that, but that's all there is to it.

We have fewer dissimilarities than many species in which only one variety is recognized.
Such as what? (I don't dispute their existence; in fact I presume they must exist. But I'd like to know the examples. The specific individual examples I'm familiar with actually all have significantly LESS difference between races/varieties/breeds/subspecies/whatever than we do, which makes it particularly ironic that the race deniers claim we don't have enough but don't object to classification within species with even less.)

All that separates people from different parts of the world are groups of particular genes that have higher distributions in some places than others
Bingo. There's no more to it than that.

No, at best it can follow a single maternal (mother's mother's mother's....) and paternal line.
That is simply false... spectacularly, flamboyantly so. The limit you're talking about applies exclusively to DNA that is passed on only by males or only by females, but most DNA, including all nuclear chromosomes except Y, gets passed on by both, and it's all the rest of that other DNA that's most useful in studying populations overall rather than just individuals.

For example, 10 generations back, you're descended from up to 1024 people. You got your Y chromosome from one of them and your mitochondria from another. You got everything else from the other 1022 people. Paying attention to only those two people, which add up to a whole 512th of your ancestry, ignores the other 511 512ths! The longer the time scale is, the worse this gets. Over dozens of millennia, there are hundreds of generations and the numbers get ridiculously huge/tiny. At that point, focusing on Y chromosomes and mitochondria alone is essentially considering an amount that's indistinguishable from zero--none--of your ancestry, and deliberately choosing to disregard practically all of it.

Races are a matter of group/population, and the non-Y nuclear DNA is where you find out about those, precisely because the genes there can be mixed and passed on in various combinations by anybody.
 
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You're the one claiming that common knowledge and everyday casual observation is a delusion or a lie...
No, I'm stating quite plainly that differences are insignificant if not arbitrary. We could decide that since all tall people are genetically different from short people that there is some significant difference. That a trait or phenotype is heritablr and therefore shared by members of a group does not make the trait or phenotype significant.

We only claim the mundane part that you're insisting on looking beyond: that human populations that have been established in different regions of the world have evolved different observable sets of physical (including chemical) traits.
Insignificant and meaningless. In the end we are all human. And we are mixing our genes daily.

You've dismissed them as unimportant or superficial or such, but that is not the same thing as non-existent, and is not a part of my claim or that of anybody else I know of.
No one claims they are non-existent only unimportant.

Identifying genes only by their correlations with each other found these groups which just happen to fall into the same geographic areas that were already known to be the homes of the different human races based on gross anatomy before genetics existed. There are no other such genetic groups in any other geographic distribution.
"Correlation". So what? Genetic bottlenecks produced insignificant differences. And?

If one wants to be dismissive about them, one could honestly call them unimportant or insignificant or minute or a small fraction of all human variation, but not superficial because they're not all visible at the surface.
These differences don't make people significantly different in their humanity, their ability to think, to express themselves artistically, to feel empathy, experience love or compassion or reproduce with others in other groups. Those are significant facts.

More importantly, no trait can be stated about any single group that is excluded by all other groups. The fatal flaw to your argument.
 
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No one claims they are non-existent only unimportant.
Your thread title calls it a "construct", which means something somebody invented (made up), rather than observing it in reality. That is not the same thing as "real but unimportant". The word choice only makes sense as part of a claim that they are not real, because someone who acknowledges that they are real would not describe them as merely invented.

You have also used phrasing within the thread such as that "race realists" need a good "argument for race". What is a race realist but someone who says races are real, and what is an argument for it other than an argument that it is real? Again, you speak as someone who claims that races are not real, even though you deny claiming that they are not real. This contradiction makes the latter look like a way to try to weasel out of the former because of the impossibility of rationally supporting the former. If it's not that kind of sneaky and dishonest (sort of like equivocation, applied to whole phrases & sentences rather than to just a word), then it is, at best, extremely sloppy communication, not only failing to coherently express your own position, but even looking just like what would be expected of others who actually have a different position.

In that case, you might want to re-read your posts with a particular emphasis on spotting word & phrase choices that make it appear as if you were denying the races' existence rather than just their importance, and avoid writing that way in the future.

The fatal flaw to your argument.
Please explicitly state exactly what argument you're saying I've made. We'll deal with what is or isn't fatal to it after establishing that you're talking about the real thing, not some other argument I haven't made.
 
Your thread title calls it a "construct"...
"Race". That's the construct. I could say all people who are taller than 5.6" are different. True but, so what? If I call these people a race how is that not an arbitrary construct?

You have also used phrasing within the thread such as that "race realists" need a good "argument for race". What is a race realist but someone who says races are real, and what is an argument for it other than an argument that it is real?
I don't know what "race is real" means. If I say that all people above 5.6" constitute a race how is that "race" real in any significant sense? It's a fact that there are people that are above 5.6", but so what?

Again, you speak as someone who claims that races are not real...
As if there are not people taller than 5.6" Yes, it's "real" that there are people who are taller than 5.6" so what? If I say this is significant and I then declare that such people constitute a race then THAT is a construct. That isn't real. It's arbitrary and meaningless.

Please explicitly state exactly what argument you're saying I've made. We'll deal with what is or isn't fatal to it after establishing that you're talking about the real thing, not some other argument I haven't made.
Fine, let's assume you have not made any arguments. Not one premise. No inference to any conclusion. Fair enough.

Let's just say that the proposition justifies my claim that claims of "race" are silly and absurd. It's a fatal flaw to any argument that there is such a thing as race beyond arbitrary and insignificant difference correlated to geographical groups to justify prejudice and bigotry. Since you have made no such argument then you can hardly object. Thanks.
 
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