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Race is a human/social construct.

Dr. John R. Baker the author of Race (1974) would disagree.

RandFan, where is your PhD?
Nobody needs a Ph.D. to play the children's game, "one of these things is not like the others." Authorities respected in their own times have been doing that since the 18th century, turning out book after book. After all that time, they have produced no stable conclusions about what makes one racial system more accurate than another. Baker is just one of a series, and one of the sillier ones given his ability to look at a ceremonial center and deny that there was a civilization that produced it.
 
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I'm not sure why people laugh when Stephen Colbert says he can't see race. What's the joke? Race is a social construct, one that can be independently determined via DNA testing (like all social constructs).

If through genetic engineering we were able to create a new species -- one stronger, smarter, etc -- then it would mean war because there's no rational basis for the post-humans to observe our rights and vice versa. See, we can confidently say race is totally, totally unimportant, but species matters. A lot. And when we talk about species, we're being really scientific. It sounds scientific -- species. It's a bright line. But talk of race or ethnicity -- "clusters," "probability" -- that's just ridiculous.

And then there's this nonsense: http://med.stanford.edu/news_releases/2005/january/racial-data.htm
 
I'm not sure why people laugh when Stephen Colbert says he can't see race.
Because so many conservatives (and a fair number of liberals) say it in all seriousness but demonstrate otherwise by their actions.
 
I'm not making an argument, since I prety much agree with RandFan, but this Guardian article has some intersting bits about cultural attitudes to race.

3point14 just posted a similar article. It proves that race is a worthless social construct that breaks down in populations with high diversity. The same phenomenon occurs frequently amongst Latino and Turkic cultures. To use race in these cases would prove fruitless.
 
Nobody needs a Ph.D. to play the children's game, "one of these things is not like the others." Authorities respected in their own times have been doing that since the 18th century, turning out book after book. After all that time, they have produced no stable conclusions about what makes one racial system more accurate than another. Baker is just one of a series, and one of the sillier ones given his ability to look at a ceremonial center and deny that there was a civilization that produced it.

Guys just to be fair MaGz supports the idea of "racial" separation. So he has already entered this conversation with "knowledge" that race is more than a social construct. He also "has" evidence to suggest that there are a little more than mere psychical differences in humanity. And that recent scientific discoveries on the issues are "false". Indeed, humans are indeed so "diverse" that all humans can trace their origins back to one ancestor. And indeed our genetic material is so "divergent" that in fact most of us have ".001%" distinction between one another. Yep we are all a "different RACE", yes indeed :rolleyes:.
 
And actually, if we really look at the concept of race it is a recent social construct. Born out of chattel slavery as a distinctive marker between slave owners and their slaves.

I doubt this. IIRC Caesar's Gallic War Commentary made exactly the sorts of distinctions we might today call "race" when referring to the inhabitants of Britain. Some he considered to be the same as the Gallic Celts and others distinct based on hair color and stature and such.

I think you are trying to conflate the concept 'race' with slavery on a black/white basis- but they two very different topics.

Before that, most humans only prescribed themselves to an ethnic group. I.E. I am Spanish, or I am Portuguese. Not I am white, or I am black. All of this is a recent invention.

It's unclear what distinction you are trying to draw. Spanish and Portuguese are national or language distinctions and these are decidedly NOT race.

The term "land race" or "landrace" was commonly used to refer to variants of cultivated species. So for example as you cross central Europe in the middle ages you might find a lot of useful variations of wheat grown. It would also refer to breeds of dogs common to a region. Without getting into the etymology I think that is what is meant by "race". Isolated sub-populations of a species that express characteristic phenotypes.

So I think we can say that the original Australian natives and Inuit are distinct races.

This is partially why I chuckled when blacks and Arabs wage verbal wars against one another about the race of the Egyptians. It is almost certain that Egypt was a racially diverse group of people with blacks, whites, and Arabs all equally ranked in the society.

Ancient Egypt was certainly a diverse culture - but whether these groups were equally ranked requires some evidence.

There were almost certainly black pharaohs, white pharaohs, and pharaohs of Middle Eastern descent. Race was almost worthless in ancient Egypt. And it is almost certain that ancient Egyptians were racially blind. They viewed skin color with nothing more contempt.

Unless you are "channelling" some ancient Egyptian - I this this statement above is unsupportable. You seem t be guessing in the absence of evidence. The idea the AEgypt was not divided based on skin color does not imply they made no distinctions based on race.


Race is almost certainly worthless.

By the definition of race that I suggested - it sounds like you are unable to make a distinction between a chihuahua vs a doberman when you want a guard dog. It seems like politically correct head-in-the-sand-ism.

But some racial groups have characteristic genetic characteristics that are advantageous or dis-advantageous - so it's not all merely superficial like the common characteristics we think of skin, hair, eye color.. It's very clear that many genetic diseases are isolated to a particular "race", metabolic capabilities, type of physique, and others.

I agree that it should not be used as a basis for social or legal distinctions, in any fair society - but that's not the question. Of course once there is substantial cross breeding between races (hmm that phrase is troubling) they cease to have so much characteristic distinction.


Humans are all one species. We can interbreed freely.
Yes !
We are all one variety;
No !

The concept of variations within a species is well established. There are hundreds of VARIETIES of Tea Rose for example, yet all are the same species.

We have fewer dissimilarities than many species in which only one variety is recognized. All that separates people from different parts of the world are groups of particular genes that have higher distributions in some places than others, but which are never found only in one group of similar appearance.

Well - Human genetic variation is significant, tho' it's unclear how you should measure the range of group phenotypes.

Your claim about genetic distributions is a direct result of the sub-populations not being completely isolated - it's not much of an argument for or against any point - except that characteristic or common traits in one group are usually transmitted to some degree to other populations. There are a number of genetic diseases that have arisen in historic times and can be traces to specific sub-populations, sometimes specific families and in a few rare cases to individuals.
 
I don't see why race can't both be fluid and real. Populations become fairly isolated, breed long enough to become somewhat homogenous, then intermix with others, become isolated again in different combinations to produce different homogenous populations, lather, rinse, repeat.

So at any one time, there are recognizable members of one of the isolated groups that have been around a while, as well as people who are the result of the old groups intermixing, and if the intermixing continues and is isolated itself, those "mixed race" people may actually be early examples of one of the future races that will temporarily stabilize, till people intermix again in different ways.

Take away the emotionally charged things that people want to do to each other based on race, and I think the concept of constantly changing isolated breeding populations is dull but sound.

Edited to add: And what stevea posted, while I was typing. :)
 
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Does this make racism OK?

I am despising you for my perception of your adherence to a social construct. Sometimes people judge others over their perception of adherence to the social construct of fashion sense. Is hating someone for being African American any worse than hating someone for their poor shoe selection skills?

Tongue in cheek, of course.
 
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Mmmm, read through the thread quickly. All biological classifications are arbitrary, human constructs.

Order, genus, species, race, etc. They all build on various real characteristics, which we have arbitrarily chosen to sort into different categories. They could all be chosen differently.

What IS real, is the hierarchy of these classes. While there may be the odd misclassification, on the hierarchical level, it is all good logic: We could put mushrooms in the animal kingdom, if we based the class on which substances its members could metabolize, but it would not make sense to put mountain gorillas into the ruminant class even though their digestion has some similarities.

Race is the softest and most debatable classification, its definition itself being fluffy: Genotypic different groups within a species. Traditionally, race have been based on skin colour and certain facial characteristics, but many other distinctions could be made. There are real differences between different human groups, some coinciding with the traditional race boundaries, others not.

I think it is unfortunate that discrimination has poisoned an otherwise useful tool for catering for slightly different needs of various human groups, for instance in nutrition, medicine, and in risk of various diseases.

Hans
 
The vid you reference is filled with basic errors.
Your post fails in that it doesn't identify any of those errors. It's simply a bald assertion. I can't rebut it and more than I can rebut a creationist that tells me that evolution is full of basic errors.
 
I don't see why race can't both be fluid and real. Populations become fairly isolated, breed long enough to become somewhat homogenous, then intermix with others, become isolated again in different combinations to produce different homogenous populations, lather, rinse, repeat.

So at any one time, there are recognizable members of one of the isolated groups that have been around a while, as well as people who are the result of the old groups intermixing, and if the intermixing continues and is isolated itself, those "mixed race" people may actually be early examples of one of the future races that will temporarily stabilize, till people intermix again in different ways.

Take away the emotionally charged things that people want to do to each other based on race, and I think the concept of constantly changing isolated breeding populations is dull but sound.

Edited to add: And what stevea posted, while I was typing. :)
Thanks Pup but honestly I have no idea what this even means ultimately. Yes, isolated people will through genetic drift acquire traits that are common to the group and are are different from other groups. And? I think we all agree that haplogroups exist. The question is, so what? Why in your mind is that significant? IMO: For most people this is simply an ad hoc rationalization to preserve the notion that races exist. I can't speak for you though. Could explain why this significant?
 
In humans: the noticing, cataloging, and grouping of certain physical characteristics; the creation of a label for specific sets of characteristics; the "grouping" of persons bearing all or most of those characteristics under that label; and the attribution of traits to that label, often derogatory or negative.
 
So I think we can say that the original Australian natives and Inuit are distinct races.
Which means what exactly? They are two haplogroups with different allele frequencies. And? Why is this significant to you? At what percentage of difference does a group become a new race? What race are the offspring that result from the pairing of Australian natives and Inuit?

But some racial groups have characteristic genetic characteristics that are advantageous or dis-advantageous - so it's not all merely superficial like the common characteristics we think of skin, hair, eye color.. It's very clear that many genetic diseases are isolated to a particular "race", metabolic capabilities, type of physique, and others.
But none unique to just one group. These characteristics overlap other groups.

Let's take height for instance. It's a real and obvious differentiating characteristic. Is there any value or purpose to say that all people who are 7' tall or taller a race? That would be arbitrary, right? So why are heritable differences significant? Yes, we can categorize. We could separate all bald people into a "race". But to what end? Any argument you make to insist that Inuit are a race but bald people are not a race comes down to special pleading. It's confirming a culturally indoctrinated bias that these differences are in someway significant. In what way?

I will hasten to add that my example could be carried over to other taxonomies. Bats and birds both fly why can't we group them? The fact is that we do depending on context. They are both flying animals. But they are not the same species. There is purpose to understanding taxonomies and speciation. And there is purpose to understanding haplogroups. But these are really only significant to anthropology. What we have in common is far more significant than what separates us. Any two people of the same haplogroup (not of the same immediate family) have on average as much genetic difference as any two individuals from different haplogroups. Unlike bats and birds you can't find enough difference to justify anything more than some allele frequencies that admittedly have some important consequences for diseases and the absorption of vitamin E but nothing that makes any of us less human.
 
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"Checking a box next to a racial/ethnic category gives several pieces of information about people - the continent where their ancestors were born, the possible color of their skin and perhaps something about their risk of different diseases. But a new study by researchers at the Stanford University School of Medicine finds that the checked box also says something about a person's genetic background."

This is why highly trained scientists are needed to do race research. I would never have imagined that things like parentage, skin color or susceptibility to certain diseases might have anything to do with a person's genes! :rolleyes:

But it's all falling into place now - why it is that Blacks like watermelon and fried chicken, Jews are good with money, and Asians are so smart - it's in their genes!!!

"Often researchers ask study participants to identify their race and ethnicity at the beginning of a clinical trial. The researchers can then follow people of different racial/ethnic groups to see which group is more likely to get a particular disease or respond well to a new treatment."

This is a really clever idea. Assume that diseases and treatments are likely to be race-specific, then run clinical trials to prove it! The good news is that determining participants actual genetic differences is not necessary, because everybody knows what race they belong to...
 
Thanks Pup but honestly I have no idea what this even means ultimately. Yes, isolated people will through genetic drift acquire traits that are common to the group and are are different from other groups. And? I think we all agree that haplogroups exist. The question is, so what? Why in your mind is that significant? IMO: For most people this is simply an ad hoc rationalization to preserve the notion that races exist. I can't speak for you though. Could explain why this significant?

It's significant to me because it explains why I can tell the difference between a person with a long central African ancestry and a person with a long northern European ancestry, just by looking at them.

It's not a rationalization to "preserve the notion that races exist," any more than saying there are Holsteins and Herefords is a rationalization to preserve the notion that cattle breeds exist. It's simply stating the obvious.

Is this the fallacy--can't remember the name--where the fact that there are things in between two categories, is supposed to prove that the two categories can't exist?

Ah, found it. The continuum fallacy.

Edited to add: Surely you realize that one can recognize racial differences without making arbitrary negative assumptions about particular races. Sometimes "so what" is the right answer. If the two people I mentioned above had their eyes closed, I figure I could have a pretty good chance of guessing what color their eyes would be.

I don't think I could guess their IQ, favorite food or criminal history, unless I had more information, like how and where they were raised.

Unless something else genetic, that's more important than eye-color, can be tied to the genes that cause the difference in appearance, then it's mildly interesting but in the end "so what."
 
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I think RandFan's analogy to "tall people" is excellent at exposing all the issues concerning the existence and applicability of "race".

Different statures exist; it cannot be denied. We could define anyone over 6 feet to be tall. Then it becomes an objective, scientifically observable fact. And experiments will show that it is inheritable to a large degree.

Now let us suppose that it becomes widely believed that tall people suck at basketball. Such a belief might easily become accepted with the assistance of the confirmation bias and other cognitive biases. Now it would be very easy for a "scientific heightist" to offer reasons for this. Tall people have a higher center of gravity, and are therefore unstable. Tall people weigh more, and so can't jump. Oh, yes, there will be exceptions, but as a rule...

Now you will have a society in which tall people are subtly discouraged from basketball -- for their own good of course. With limited information about a player's abilities, a coach might fall back on the expedient of rejecting potential recruits based on their objective physical characteristics. Over time, there will be fewer tall people playing basketball, and it will become known as a short person's game. At this point, studies will show what everybody already knows; that tall people are underrepresented in the game.

Now at this point, "tallness as a predictor of basketball ability" is indeed a societal construct; I've just outlined its construction. Question: what is it's objective scientific validity; in terms of its existence, in terms of its predictive usefulness?
 

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