Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[smkovalinksy]

By the way, I do like the current avatars over at PMF-org. Most of them have adopted white roses in memory of Meredith, which I think is actually rather sweet. Most of the avatars themselves are lovely, and one of them has chosen the white rose of Yorkshire, as Meredith was at Leeds university (if I've got that right).

It's a nice change from the drawing of Amanda strapped to an electric chair, and other recent choice offerings.

Rolfe.

I agree that the white roses in memory of the victim are a very nice sentiment. If only they did not connect justice for Meredith with the conviction of Knox and Sollecito.

 

[Ammonitida]

from what I read the defense did a good job. I'm glad they took the judges back to the beginning and laid out how the ILE had made up its mind in the first hours. I think they basically covered the "we knew the truth" comments. They made it clear that the statements were coerced and that the first court had vilolated the spirit of the supreme court ruling. Also, they pointed the consistent accounts Amanda gave.

I also liked the fact that they went after the PLE and the Scientific Police. They hit the whole prosecution pretty hard.

The afternoon session left the judges with a less intense feeling and humanized the defendants.

I would like to know more of what was said in regards to the luminol footprints. If they failed to mention that Knox's foot doesn't match the only clear luminol print, then that is a big missed opportunity which could have serious consequences for Knox. Bringing this to the attention of the court would have BURIED the luminol smoke and mirrors for good.

 

[LondonJohn]

Yes, I agree that the white rose thing is nice in principle. And I hope that some of the posters there are displaying the rose with no hidden agenda. But.....

..... I think it's safe to say that a certain proportion of posters there are once again trying to hijack the memory of Meredith Kercher to suit their own ends. I think that for some posters (particularly the usual suspects), this is an overt display of "conspicuous compassion" which is consciously intended to imply that they - and only they - have the moral authority to be considering the murder victim at this point. I also think that for these people it is partly a pre-emptive mitigator against acquittals.

But of course it's nonsense to think that people who think Knox and Sollecito should be acquitted somehow do not have compassion for Meredith Kercher. What I find frankly quite disgusting is the attempt by some pro-guilt commentators to couple the two issues with a negative correlation: i.e. that by being pro-acquittal one is somehow anti-Meredith (or, at best, "don't give a damn about Meredith"). The people who campaigned extremely long and hard for the acquittals of the Birmingham Six and Guildford Four had no lack of compassion for the victims of these indiscriminate and brutal bombings. But that was a totally different issue from the issue of whether the right people were justly behind bars for committing the atrocities. It's the same deal in this case.

After a long day, I've just about caught up on proceedings today. To my mind, Dalla Vedova and Ghirga performed more than adequately in their closing arguments. I had previously opined that it was probably necessary for Knox's/Sollecito's defence teams to make sure they addressed every single significant issue, and it appears that they did a very good combined job in that respect. We have to remember that Italian courts actually reach their own decisions - they don't necessarily have to accept the binary option of the prosecution case vs the defence case, and they can choose to interpret evidence however they like - regardless of whether or not any of the other parties used that evidence in their own arguments. So the job of the defence teams was not just to address the prosecution arguments (which were very narrow and seemingly very poor), but also to address everything else.

I am sure that Knox and Sollecito will be acquitted on Monday. I base this surety on a dispassionate, objective, reasoned analysis of all the evidence and arguments, coupled with the behaviour of the judges and the extraordinary out-of-court outbursts of the prosecutors. And Hellmann's pushing back of the verdict to Monday is quite clearly for external reasons: it's either in order for Meredith's mother to get to Perugia, or in order to accommodate the media. It doesn't indicate at all that he feels his court needs additional time to consider the verdict: indeed it seems likely that the court will barely sit on Saturday (and of course not on Sunday). Hellmann and his colleagues have already decided to acquit.

I'm actually quite tired of pushing back against the increasingly-desperate rationalisations and dogmatic mantras of many of the pro-guilt commentators. Their behaviour now reminds me of nothing more than the well-known soliloquy from Macbeth (Act 5, Scene 5, lines 19-28). I just hope they will come to understand the truth some day, hopefully not too long after Knox and Sollecito are rightfully acquitted. And I hope that they think twice before deploying their "sound and fury" the next time, but something tells me they might be just as indiscriminate with their next targets. Some people, it seems, never learn.

 

[LashL]

Ok you are both half right. In the USA, the prosecution makes the first closing argument followed by the defense BUT then the prosecution and ONLY THE PROSECUTION makes a rebuttal argument. The reasoning is the prosecution has the burden of proof and must prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

In Canada, the order of closing jury addresses is slightly different and it is dependent upon whether or not the defence calls witnesses. If the defence calls witnesses, it gets to address the jury last, but if the defence opts not to call witnesses, the Crown gets to address the jury last.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Nadeau's thesis makes no sense

Quote from Barbie's latest article:

"The media did not kill Meredith Kercher, but it’s almost certain that it has by now destroyed any real chance of finding out who really did."

Hmmmm.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl.../articles+(The+Daily+Beast+-+Latest+Articles)

RoseMontague,

Even if the media circus is as big as a, well, supertanker, how does that prevent us from knowing what happened? A friend of mine opined that this was a very complicated case. I told him that it was the essence of simplicity: A burglar gets interrupted, and his crime escalates into sexual assault and murder.

 

[Grinder]

I wished the supertanker would have used their billion dollars to find a witness to testify seeing Amanda and Raffaele in his apartment the night of the murder.

If this witness was an elderly alcoholic it would have been perfect. The witness could have verified the night by the buses he saw later as he staggered home.

 

[theRealBob]

Quote:
Just a casual note to any non-member readers of perugiamurderfile.net be they occasional, avid or new...or have simply arrived here accidentally from other 'similar' forums. This is the original PMF information/discussion forum and as such is run under the original PMF values. In line with that, membership is OPEN. Should you wish to join the board, please feel free, our community has been accepting new members for over three years and is still and always shall. New members will always be welcome, provided they respect the forum rules and arrive in good faith, just as they always have been. PMF is community run, not run by dictatorship or from the back room, as may be the case with some lesser sites (and imitations). In addition, please feel free to peruse the board and use its excellent search feature as well as access files, should you wish to, be you member or guest, as it is open to all. There is a great deal of useful and important information here, both in our main discussion threads and in the reference sections and these are constantly updated. Welcome to the open source - open access community

I don't know what to make of this invitation. Any input would be appreciated. From Michael, a short while ago.

There is no mention in this lovely invitation of new members being able to post, or reply .........

 

[theRealBob]

I would like to know more of what was said in regards to the luminol footprints. If they failed to mention that Knox's foot doesn't match the only clear luminol print, then that is a big missed opportunity which could have serious consequences for Knox. Bringing this to the attention of the court would have BURIED the luminol smoke and mirrors for good.

If I had to have any of the defence teams lawyers defend me in a case. I'd defend myself, even if I had to pay for the priviledge.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

So....does anyone know who gets the last rebuttal in this case?

Defence or Prosecution?

I was also led to believe that Knox / Sollecito would address the court BEFORE the rebuttals...but it appears as if they will actually have the last word....AFTER the rebuttals.

 

[JREF2010]

That was not from a legitimate bookie. Furthermore, that guy was not willing to actually MAKE A BET at those numbers. So that should tell you a lot about how realistic those numbers are.

Don't worry. Amanda Knox already has one foot out of the prison door. The other to follow shortly.

yes, to me I would be tempted to bet because i wouldnt think they would have much depth on "the horses racing" in this case.

the prosecution"horse" has a broken leg called the C&V report. these are details the majority arent aware of, most read the headlines and thats a crap shoot on which journalist forms their opinion.

The bookie mentioned another option they could be held in Italy, "out of prison" while waiting for the SC response, and flee?
Is this even a real possibility, to be released but held over in Italy?

 

[theRealBob]

Oh well, back to posting in sobriety during the daytime again. It diminishes my belief that I have Asberger's and could be in line for a date after release or of course, jail visit with Amanda Knox..

In the case, that Barbie tells us we can never truly know what happened, where Meredith came home and was killed by a burglar she surprised, no guilters, or prosecution clowns ever get close to coming up with reasonably debatable theories as to what could be the events of the night
Strangely enough someone on PMF came up with a post that did at least engage my imagination for a few seconds.

What if..........

Amanda and Raff had stolen the money to pay Rudy for the drugs and Meredith, arriving home caught the three of them staging a breakin.

For the first time someone from the prosecute/kill/and maim side of the case caused a moments thought instead of the dismal vacumm of engagement, and hilarity their arguments invoke wthin me.

....Except for...... all those thosands of euros the students had, and of course, those decisive photos of the glass stacked neatly on the side of the window frame that - prove totally - it was a burglary that Rudy caused (that the defence lawyers neglected to mention to the court for a change)

They're been running wild over on PMF today. They're humilating anyone who has ever denied the mixed blood traces because it's been revealed in court BY AMANDA'S OWN LAWYERS that Amanda had a spot of blood on the tap.
They have post after post on this sensational clue being finally owed up to.


Could someone who is allowed to post jump on there and explain that the spot of blood on the tap is not a MIXED BLOOD clue.

There is also a photo of Amanda's room that clinically shows a small circular blood patch on the pillow from the ear piercing too.

 

[Kaosium]

Bene complained that the cops were not investigating this and Mignini called her in for a little "chat".



http://knoxarchives.blogspot.com/2010/02/another-giuliano-mignini-defamation.html

There turned out there was nothing to the story, IIRC. Mignini was not happy with this reporter for being critical of the investigation and the cops.

Francesca Bene being the reporter who instantly realized the Statements signed by Amanda were not what the police said they were...

 

[JREF2010]

So....does anyone know who gets the last rebuttal in this case?

Defence or Prosecution?

I was also led to believe that Knox / Sollecito would address the court BEFORE the rebuttals...but it appears as if they will actually have the last word....AFTER the rebuttals.

good question....I was told by some poster the rebuttal is the prosecutions, there is no defense. because the burden is on the prosecution etc..etc.they get to rebut.?

However, Andrea said the Judge mentioned "only one from each side for rebuttal". idk?

some of my past few questions are legal too. US the state gets to rebut what the defense put into their closing.
(only a prosecution function)..

my understanding is Knox and Sollecito go last on Friday..

then the verdict will come. maybe the Judges can discuss in private on Saturday, and announce on Monday.

 

[JREF2010]

Oh well, back to posting in sobriety during the daytime again. It diminishes my belief that I have Asberger's and could be in line for a date after release, or of course, jail visit with Amanda Knox..

In this case that Barbie tells us we can never truly know what happened, where Meredith came home and was killed by a burglar she surprised, no guilters, or prosecution clowns come up with reasonbly debatable theories as to what could be the events of the night
Strangely enough someone on PMF came up with a post that did at least engage my imagination for a few seconds.

What if..........

Amanda and Raff had stolen the money to pay Rudy for the drugs and Meredith, arriving home caught them staging a breakin.

For the first time someone from the prosecute/kill/and maim side of the case caused a moments thought instead of the dismal vacumm of engagement, and hilarity their arguments invoke wthin me.

....Except for...... all those thosands of euros the students had, and of course, those decisive photos of the glass stacked neatly on the side of the window frame that - prove totally - the burglary that Rudy caused (that the defence lawyers neglected to mention to the court for a change)

Well if this could all have happened between closing the pc activity 9:26...then walked over, somehow met Rudy along the way on a Drug "run", and then done all this and killed Meredith and fled with the cell phones being outside by 10:13pm...

30-40minutes?

and like you said ..ooooops! they didnt need any money. there goes that damn Motive again!

then who is a strong credible witness is very helpful, shucks! no witness maybe look for a heroin bum to say something....

now to prove this theory happened, we need Forensic proof to convict.
its absolutely critical in this case because theres no MOtive for money, and only a bum who admits to the public he was high on heroin when he saw the silhouettes in the dark.

tough sell, if I was the DA I would have to pass on this theory.

tell them to bring in something more media worthy like she-devil or satanic sex orgy, mind you a 35 minute drug satanic sex orgy halloween type ritual murder with meticulous cover up using magical witch soap or something like that.

p.s. they have to rebut the C&V report.

 

[theRealBob]

Well if this could all have happened between closing the pc activity 9:26...then walked over, somehow met Rudy along the way on a Drug "run", and then done all this and killed Meredith and fled with the cell phones being outside by 10:13pm...

30-40minutes?

and like you said ..ooooops! they didnt need any money. there goes that damn Motive again!

then who is a strong credible witness is very helpful, shucks! no witness maybe look for a heroin bum to say something....

now to prove this theory happened, we need Forensic proof to convict.
its absolutely critical in this case because theres no MOtive for money, and only a bum who admits to the public he was high on heroin when he saw the silhouettes in the dark.

tough sell, if I was the DA I would have to pass on this theory.

tell them to bring in something more media worthy like she-devil or satanic sex orgy, mind you a 35 minute drug satanic sex orgy halloween type ritual murder with meticulous cover up using magical witch soap or something like that.

p.s. they have to rebut the C&V report.

There have been numerous posts here in the last few days saying that the case is simple. Meredith surprised a burglar that she could recognise in her own hone and he killed her.

That, just seems of be the end of that.

But the case of course, has no end of this...

I also thought the Knox/Sollicito lawyers could have honed in on a list of the essence of the more dangerous admissions in the C & V report

and itemised the prosecution nastie's crap tactics in a list, instead of being furry and nice

A list looks bad, particularly when you highlight some of the observations Londonjohn has pointed out.
It's very obvious that none of the defence lawyers read (or translate) this forum, and we know more than they do....

 

[JREF2010]

There have been numerous posts here in the last few days saying that the case is simple. Meredith surprised a burglar that she could recognise in her own hone and he killed her.

That, just seems of be the end of that.

But the case of course, has no end of this...

I also thought the Knox/Sollicito lawyers could have honed in on a distillation of the essence of the more dangerous admissions in the C & V report

and itemised the prosecution scum's crap tactics in a list, instead of being furry and nice

A list looks bad, particularly when you highlight some of the observations Londonjohn has pointed out.
None of the defence lawyers read (or translate) this forum, and we know more than they do....

I only saw mainly tweets recently, the media articles havent added much...
but I got the impression the defense on a couple occurrences, hinted towards some "scum tactic's".

Commodi didnt threaten to sue anyone, so maybe it was furry and nice?

 

[JREF2010]

here's version #?

Knox and Sollecito will give their speech on Monday morning...15-20 minutes each.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/29/world/europe/italy-knox-appeal/

 

[smkovalinksy]

here's version #?

Knox and Sollecito will give their speech on Monday morning...15-20 minutes each.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/29/world/europe/italy-knox-appeal/

The judge said there will be no ruling in the case until after defendant statements on Monday.
The second of Knox's lawyers to speak, Luciano Ghirga, said Knox was "very afraid but her heart is full of hope and she hopes to return to freedom."

http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/29/world/europe/italy-knox-appeal/I wonder how long after the statements? In the U.S., deliberation can drag on for days and even up to 2 weeks. Why are they so sure the verdict will even come on Monday? I must say, reading over at PMF, their predictions of life sentences, of Knox screaming at the verdict, are beginning to make me feel ill. ...

 

[theRealBob]

I only saw mainly tweets recently, the media articles havent added much...
but I got the impression the defense on a couple occurrences, hinted towards some "scum tactic's".

Commodi didnt threaten to sue anyone, so maybe it was furry and nice?

From PMF


Ghirga asks why forensic police biologist Patrizia Stefanoni said on the stand several hundred picograms of DNA when it far less

Ghirga going after forensic police biologist Patrizia Stefanoni, alleging lapses in methodology and fibs in #amandaknox case.

amandaknox laughs as Ghirga mocks prosecution's case. She and her family seem moved.

#amandaknox again laughing openly in court, as are others,as Ghirga mixes indignant oratory with humor re: prosecution witnesses.

Ghirga says #amandaknox rights violated during interrogation. The prosecutor went too far, he said.

Ghirga goes hard on prosecutor and opposing attorneys, then says after trial is over, perhaps "we will can be friends again.

Ghirga caresses #amandaknox on head and says he hopes she goes free. Says her "extended and united" families deserve public respect.


Yes, I'm surprised too that neither Commodi or Mignini threatened to sue anyone today.

 

[Kaosium]

I am genuinely shocked at this. There is no way, on this EARTH, that Nick Pisa still believes that Knox is guilty. I thought he was softening up lately, and Barbie too, but all of a sudden they are back in attack mode. Do they know something we don't?

Here he's just reporting what Pacelli said, don't shoot the messenger. A lot of Nick Pisa's pieces can be read two ways, even his masterpiece "I'm so Pretty" article. On one level is the smarmy 'chained heat' angle, also implying narcissism on Amanda's part and invoking outrage as she complains of her cellmate's petty tyrannies compared to the suffering of Meredith Kercher, but on the other level it does reveal the calculated cruelties visited upon the family as their private conversations about being sexually abused in prison were broadcast to the press. I'd be especially curious to know if Nick Pisa ever heard this in the original or if he relied on one of those 'motivated translations' ILE was giving reporters in the early going, like they must have Follain about the Vicki story.