No of course not seriously. Geez don't you guys recognize a troll when you see one and know not to feed it
Confederate flag causing a flap in SC
- Thread starter Antiquehunter
- Start date
Piggy
Unlicensed street skeptic
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2006
- Messages
- 15,905
It's any good, I suppose, but it's not what you'd call really good BBQ. I mean, I ate it without making a face, but it's not on my list of places to go back to.
...except that for many it is NOT a symbol of racism and slavery. Just because it is to you doesn't make it so for everyone else.
Right. But that is also not relevant here, at least not in all cases to say the least.
You are absolutely correct. I could get pedantic about how I never said anything about a "significant number" (which is what I keyed on w/o going back to any of my earlier posts), but "rare" is significant, so yeah that would be quite pedantic. I stand corrected. In my experience and impression as I explained earlier - yes, that is anecdotal - it is the exception those displaying the flag are racists. I don't know how "rare" it is, which is my main point. Nor do you, but you seem to think you do.
Speaks for itself. You want to wear blinders and create your own truth without basis in fact, enjoy.
Glad you enjoyed it. At least I admitted my goof. Meanwhile, you continue to cling to quite laughable statements and beliefs, so I think I came out ahead on this one.
Last edited:
Tsukasa Buddha
Other (please write in)
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2006
- Messages
- 15,302
*sighs
Yet another story about black people bitching over nothing. I hardly see the big deal with this woman flying her flag. Of course I’m from the north and we have very different views on these things. Instead black people need to start whining about why they aren't fixing their neighborhoods and schools instead of looking for old demons and scape goats to blame.
Er, it is possible to be offended at those things as well as this. It is not like offense and protest are limited resources. Also, plenty of black people are involved in those activities year-round.
You have no idea how much I despise that holiday
.Do you know these people well enough to reasonably conclude that this is actually the case?
After all, in the modern world, most racists aren't vocal about it. You'd have to get into some pretty deep discussions and put them at ease before their attitudes about race manifest themselves.
I would expect that the sort of people who would fly a Confederate flag and are outspoken about "southern pride", are pretty likely to be white racists when you get right down to it. I'm just wondering if you've actually dug deep enough to reasonably conclude that this expectation is incorrect, or whether by "not racists" you just mean "not open, blatant racists".
Madalch
The Jester
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2006
- Messages
- 9,763
Saltire. It's called a saltire.
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
phildonnia
Master Poster
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2001
- Messages
- 2,439
I know that. I didn't want to sound like an egghead. No offense. Oh, too late.
gasp
Prepare to be tagged by many as a racist.
You must've not gotten the memo.
True, but I see so much wasted talent and effort used on race baiting and feeling sorry for one's self. It makes me sad sometimes.
I disagree with this almost universally. "No useful purpose except to offend" is subjective, and no matter what you say/do someone will find it deeply offensive. If I'm about to say "there's probably no God," or "there's no evidence that homeopathy works," I know ahead of time it will be deeply offensive, and I know for a subset of people it will serve no useful purpose except to offend. That doesn't mean I shouldn't say it.
Pup
Philosopher
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 6,679
I think the above hits the nail on the head, and points up the problem.
There's no confusion when someone speaks up against homeopathy or religion. They're saying exactly what they mean. The Confederate flag, though, can symbolize a variety of things.
Let's say somebody wants to fly it as a symbol of southern pride, family heritage, etc.
Living in the modern world, they know it will offend a significant number of black people, because others think of it as a symbol of racism, even if they don't.
Knowing it will offend black people more than white people, they decide to fly it anyway.
Is that racist? I don't know.
I'm just not into flags myself, so they don't cause much emotion for me. I don't even fly a U.S. flag, so it's hard for me to see this through the eyes of someone who gets great meaning from flags.
Some make the argument that the only way to take the flag back from the Klan is to fly it, risk offending, but use the opportunity to show it in a different light instead.
The problem is that there's not much of a different light. A person in 1864 could be fighting under it primarily for regional defense, but slavery was inescapably intertwined with what needed defending, whether the person was motivated by that or not. The quick-and-easy way to avoid Klan associations is to fly one of the earlier Confederate flags, which most people don't even recognize, but that still doesn't get away from the above problem once it is recognized.
I've done living history under a variety of flags, where I take on the persona of someone from the past, and in those cases, I do think Confederate flags can be justified as part of a history lesson, same as in a play or movie. I make it very clear the person I'm portraying is "not me," and I might be a slave-owner one week and an abolitionist the next. Which is all good, except there are good ol' boys who co-opt the social acceptability of living history as an excuse primarily to dress up in Confederate uniforms, say the n word in public and party. So there's a line even there that's too easy to cross, and still a tug of war as to who's coopting the use of the flag in living history for what.
Like I said before, it is impossible to not connect the flag to its slavery-related past. Its origins are steeped in slavery, and without slavery and the Confederacy's desire to maintain slavery it never would have existed. Further, it was only used by a Confederacy for a very short time, all of which involved fighting to maintain slavery.
I don't by the "respect my heritage" argument. That would be like celebrating our massacre of the Native Americans or how we imprisoned Japanese Americans during WW2. These are acts we should acknowledge as having happened and not feel proud of. Acting like we can respect what happened and why the Confederacy was fighting while ignoring slavery is a popular whitewashing of history. It's not ok.
Flying it is like flying a Soviet Flag in Eastern Germany or the former Soviet Bloc. Honestly, I think this might be one of the examples where comparing it to a particular german flag might be appropriate. The Confederacy had standing orders to shoot black soldiers on sight and never accept surrender from them,* they had atrocious prisons for POWs, etc. A few charismatic leaders, even likable though very misguided ones, doesn't truly mitigate the evils the Confederacy fought for and committed. The "heritage" that the Confederacy gives is twisted and evil.
*Hmm, there might have been some cases where black POWs were enslaved. Not sure of the top of my head.
sarge
Penultimate Amazing
It is impossible to fly this flag (in the US) without knowing that it is a symbol of bigotry. Indeed, to fly this symbol of slavery is a celebration of slavery, whether there may be some other reason for flying the flag or not. This flag can not be seperated from its past.
So, every person flying this flag is aware that the flag was originally a symbol for an attempt to perpetuate slavery. Every person flying this flag is aware that every person that served under this flag was fighting a war for the primary purpose of retaining slavery. Every person flying this flag is aware that, for the first 100 years after the war, this flag's sole purpose was to keep alive the longing for a time when Blacks were slaves.
Nope - it is not possible for someone to display this flag in public and claim that they are celebrating a "Southern Pride" that is disconected from the South of 1863.
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
This is often true, I know people who have WWII artifacts and display them in their homes. You are not displaying yours for the other reasons
I have known other people who do display it beceause they are racists or rebels without a cause
Last edited:
sarge
Penultimate Amazing
Displaying a historicaly significant item in a historical context differs from displaying a historically racist item in a setting guaranteed to cause offense, even if the items are identical.
Of course, I think I just used more words to say less effectively something you'd already said. Sometimes, I just can't help myself.
ftfy
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
Sources and evidence, false dichotomy and overgeneralization?*sighs
Yet another story about black people bitching over nothing. I hardly see the big deal with this woman flying her flag. Of course I’m from the north and we have very different views on these things. Instead black people need to start whining about why they aren't fixing their neighborhoods and schools instead of looking for old demons and scape goats to blame
The why did you post?
Piggy
Unlicensed street skeptic
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2006
- Messages
- 15,905
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
As far as I'm aware, nobody knows what that actually sounded like.
I thought is was "More, more, more"?