Confederate flag causing a flap in SC

[L.Y.S.]

Down here, we proceed about our lives without often experiencing overt signs of racism. The most commonly occuring exception is the Confederate flag, and it is just common enough that it becomes part of the background. It attracts attention only when some moron goes to some length to display it in a manner designed to draw attention. In these instances, it is almost always accurate to assume that racism is a component of the display.

You know more about this than I do. So I'll take your word for it. I hardly think it's an issue though. We need to learn to ignore stuff. This hardly is infringing upon our rights. If they want to be idiots, let them be idiots. Those people flying the CSA just want attention. I say we let the attention whores down and ignore them.

 

[Dancing David]

? He was displaying his flag on HIS property. How does that "violate the property rights of his neighbors" - ? Your link provides little info and it all sounds quite sketchy.

Well ordinances and compacts control a whole lot of what you can do in your yard, like hanging wash in the front yard, having trash, weeds, abandoned vehicles, under some compacts the subdivision can tell you what color to paint your house.

 

[Pup]

As usual you have no idea of what it is you are talking about.

I'll give you a hint - neither of them were racists.

I'm missing something here. When I first read your story of the Confederate flag, I thought you were mentioning your father and his father as a metaphor for all your distant southern ancestors back to the Civil War. But now I'm thinking you mean it's a reminder of literally just those two relatives, since the odds of anyone's ancestor in the mid 19th century not being racist, north or south, are vanishingly small.

How does the flag tie in to your father and grandfather specifically, since presumably you're not an actual son or grandson of a Confederate veteran?

No need to answer if it's too personal, just think it sounds like an interesting story.

 

[SatanicSheep]

Blacks are never charged with hate crimes only whites.

Are you serious? That's not true at all.

 

[L.Y.S.]

This example is never a hate crime. Blacks are never charged with hate crimes only whites.

Seriously playing the victim card? Get over your self. I seriously almost died laughing.

 

[Metullus]

I'm missing something here. When I first read your story of the Confederate flag, I thought you were mentioning your father and his father as a metaphor for all your distant southern ancestors back to the Civil War. But now I'm thinking you mean it's a reminder of literally just those two relatives, since the odds of anyone's ancestor in the mid 19th century not being racist, north or south, are vanishingly small.

How does the flag tie in to your father and grandfather specifically, since presumably you're not an actual son or grandson of a Confederate veteran?

No need to answer if it's too personal, just think it sounds like an interesting story.

Its origins are obscure. My father's family came from south Alabama. During the Civil War his family were staunch Alabamans and, thus, staunch Confederates. The defeat of the South led one of my great great grandfathers (who served in the war and who lost two of his four sons in the conflict) to decide that the disaster was God's condemnation of slavery. He became a committed Methodist and a Republican. The flag might have belonged to him.

His daughter-in-law, my great grandmother, allegedly gave the flag to my grandfather as a keepsake when he received his lieutenant's commission in the US Army. My grandfather took the flag with him when he deployed to Europe in late 1917. He used it as a company guidon.

My father carried the same flag with him during WWII and Korea. He had it with him on D-Day because he wanted the Nazi's to know that war with the USA meant war with Dixie.

Several years later he used it in Korea in much the same way his father had in WWI: he flew it from his jeep. He was a recon platoon leader and he figured that the good guys were less likely to shoot at him if they saw the Confederate flag on the theory that the NK and Chicoms would never think to use a rebel flag as a ruse de guerre. He also wanted to make sure that Alabama was well represented in the UN Forces. He retired the flag after Korea and did not take it with him to Vietnam.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Ah, Maurice's. They haven't changed a bit. Was in one last year, and the same crap was still cluttering up the place.

But is the BBQ any good?

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

I like that Ft. Sumter Flag, plus that design was to accomodate the star of Oregon becoming a state. I should start flying it as a matter of Oregon Pride.

 

[bigred]

The poster I was responding to said s/he wasn't from USA, btw.

But yeah, I think Archie is a perfect example.

Got it and I was kidding, it was a great example of where you are coming from, just ironic that you used Archie to do it.

And yeah IMO that is the ultimate Archie/Mike moment and one of the best, most powerful scenes in TV history ever.

I do wonder why the southerners who fly the 'stars and bars' for reasons of pride don't fly the 'Don't tread on me' flag instead, it was created by a man from South Carolina, and it was one of the first symbols of a winning cause, the Revolutionary War. And it doesn't carry the baggage the 'stars and bars' does, since it's not a symbol just for white southerners to take pride in.

Because nobody cares who created it (or any other flag) really, and the Rev. War wasn't specific to the South. The other flag is.

*sighs

Yet another story about black people bitching over nothing. I hardly see the big deal with this woman flying her flag. Of course I’m from the north and we have very different views on these things. Instead black people need to start whining about why they aren't fixing their neighborhoods and schools instead of looking for old demons and scape goats to blame .

gasp

Prepare to be tagged by many as a racist.

Why be offended?

I think you answered your own question already. Besides it's all the rage.

 

[Alt+F4]

As a resident of South Carolina I can say that news of a "flap" is greatly exagerated. It's not been on the local news or in any paper that I have seen.

As a non-resident of South Carolina I was thinking the same thing. The protests happend almost a year ago and those involved (on both sides of the issue) said that things have been quite in the town in recent months. So the question I have is, why this story now? Was Monday a slow news day?

 

[bigred]

Bad BBQ is a crime. Of course, being a northerner, I am more egalitarian in what I consider to be 'BBQ', but it needs to be good, whatever region it hails from.

Finally the voice of reason. However if you call sloppy joes "BBQ" prepare to be run over by Bo and Luke Duke and deservedly so. Right after people who think BBQ should have a strong mustard element that is.

 

[bigred]

It is an exhibit of my experiences. In my 50 years of on and off living in the South, every person that has displayed the rebel flag has been aware of the provocative nature of the display and has embraced that provocation.

Every single one? Really? And you "know" this how? Did you ask? Did they harass/berate blacks? Can you read minds? Or did you also just make a silly extremist assumption based on what you DO (presumably) know about SOME of them?

Frankly, it is so obvious that I can't believe that you actually believe that a significant number of persons displaying this symbol do so out of a "southern pride" that is divorced from the south's racist past.

I never said "significant number" and don't know what the % breakdown really is. Nor do you, and regarless, to assume they all do or don't feel a certain way is blatantly ridiculous.

Oh, what do you know? It takes a White Male to have an informed opinion about racism.

The race card again. And spurred on by a lack of reading comprehension. What a surprise.

 

[sarge]

But is the BBQ any good?

Trick question.

What Maurice serves is decidedly not BBQ. Whether some gustatory nerve challenged individual might have suffered enough damage to find it palatable I couldn't say.

 

[sarge]

Every single one? Really? And you "know" this how? Did you ask? Did they harass/berate blacks? Can you read minds? Or did you also just make a silly extremist assumption based on what you DO (presumably) know about SOME of them?

Because it is impossible to live in the southeast and not be aware of the provocative nature of that symbol of racism and slavery, and it is impossible to be aware of the provocative nature of the symbol and still choose to display the symbol without embracing the provocation.

In other words, if you know that what you are about to say will be deeply offensive, and what you are about to say serves no useful purpose except to offend, and you say it anyway, then you fully intended to offend.

I never said "significant number" and don't know what the % breakdown really is.

Sure you did. In response to the question of whether or not flying the rebel flag is intended to be a racist action, you said

"Of course not (with rare exception, there will always be some loon like that around) and only a complete moron thinks so. It is about "Southern pride" in general."

It is absolute that the above says that you believe that it is a rare occurance when someone has a racial motivation for displaying a rebel flag. If you did not mean to say that most people that fly a racist symbol do not intend to actually promote racism, then you need to be more careful what you write. Words mean things, after all.

Nor do you, and regarless, to assume they all do or don't feel a certain way is blatantly ridiculous.

Nonsense.

The race card again. And spurred on by a lack of reading comprehension. What a surprise.

1. It was a joke, directed to an actual Black person by an actual white person that was describing racism as racism. At least as funny as my joke is you, after so miserably failing to understand something you read, taking me to task for failing to understand something I read. Priceless.

2. You first posted that it is rare for the display of the Rebel Flag to have racial overtones, then subsequently said you never made such a post. It is rare that I get such a kick out of someone putting their foot in their mouth, but I admit this one I enjoyed.

 

[phildonnia]

Interesting fact I found: according to Dr. Wik E. Pedia, the 'X' shape was used, rather than an upright cross so as not to alienate Southern Jews.

 

[Huttosaurus]

Of course, it is certainly possible that some number of Rebel Flag displayers actually harken back to a lost war and identify so strongly with ancestors they never met and a way of life they never knew that they feel compeled to display a symbol they have no actual connection to.

It isn't uncommon to see the flag here in New Zealand too (at American car enthusiast meets for example), about as far removed from the Old South as you can get. When I see it here, I wonder how many of those displaying it have any real appreciation of it's meaning or significance.

 

[kedo1981]

AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
That was never the confederate flag.
The whole debate proves the “South will rise again” mentality is based on mental retardation.
If you want honor the Confederacy fly the correct one.
In that the Confederate Navy Jack was the flag adopted by Nathanial Bedford Forrest as the symbol of the Klu Klux Klan, yes it is racist

 

[Pup]

AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
That was never the confederate flag.
The whole debate proves the “South will rise again” mentality is based on mental retardation.
If you want honor the Confederacy fly the correct one.
In that the Confederate Navy Jack was the flag adopted by Nathanial Bedford Forrest as the symbol of the Klu Klux Klan, yes it is racist

Somebody needs to tell Gen. Johnston he was ordering the wrong flags for the Army of Tennessee in 1864. See post #98

Yes, I get that the Klan in its 19th and 20th century incarnations co-opted the Confederate flag to the point that its original symbolism has been all but lost, and its earlier symbolism honestly wasn't any better when brought into the modern world.

But when people use the "that's just the Confederate Naval Jack" meme to counteract the "this rectangle is the Confederate Flag" meme, I've gotta say it grates on my nerves. Both sides are distorting history, one side pretending the Klan history never happened and the other pretending the Army of Tennessee history never happened. Because it was flying over Confederate soldiers in the Army of Tennessee during the actual war.

Hint: Think of Forrest's home state. Probably no coincidence.

 

[bigred]

Well then go argue with them.

Good one.

Riiiight... Cotton, in the deep South, alongside a Confederate battle flag, has *nothing* to do with black people.

Yeah that's what I said. Nice word twist.

The same thing you based your assumptions on. Or are you now holding me to a higher standard than yourself? You gave your impressions, I gave mine.

No, you gave things you just dreamed up or assumed because you wanted to believe them to have an excuse to work up a self-righteous sneer at all the alleged racists. I on the other hand have actually spoken to many people in the South who have/display the flag (granted none as glaringly as this lady) and spoken to many others about it. Some of them I knew well, some I only knew casually, some not at all. Exceedingly few gave me even the mildest impression of racist tendencies, regarding the flag or anything else.

I'd ask if you can see the difference, but the asnwer is already claer.

The point is I KNOW they aren't all racists, but neither do I claim or think they don't exist either.

I created my own truth every bit as much as you did when you claim there might be "some loon" who displays the flag and is racist--as if those loons are rare, or even a minority, in the "Southern pride" set.

Well at least you admitted you created your own truth. Again the difference is that I KNOW it doesn't describe all (or none) of them, and if anything it's my bad that I didn't state clearly and instead downshifted to "might be." As to the racist ones not being rare, that is again your precious assumption which you just assume for giggles. You also take the silly extremist view that all (or so close to all it's effectively the same) of them are racist, and without any basis in fact to boot, but rather because you love the sweeping generalization. You cling to an extremist racial stereotype, which is both ironic and hypocritical, given your indignation is towards people who do the same (the racist ones). Gee a racial double-standard, there's something new in America.

It still amazes me every time I run into someone who thinks them being or not being racist is an all-or-nothing thing. It's quite silly. If you can't that, get someone to explain it, I won't waste my time further.

If you want to insult me personally, grow a pair and do it directly.

ooooooh, "grow a pair." No insult there eh?

FYI I "insulted" your assumption - attack the argument, not the arguer, is the rule here FYI. Sorry that you can't tell the difference.

Your frustrated-white-guy impotence is as unseemly as those "silly hissies" that black folks have. Grow up.

lol @ having a hissy about me insulting you and then doing it yourself (weakly, I might add). Gee never saw that pot/kettle thing coming, really.

Please go buy a mirror, you're in desperate need.

My apologies to the rest for the snippy aspects of this reply. I won't bother again.

 

[bigred]

The juxtaposition of the two highlighted sentences made me laugh; the use of the word hypocrisy was also amusing. How the OP feels is the start of a discussion: he recounts his reaction and wonders how other people react to flying the confederate flag.

Whatever on the laugh/amusing bit. You misunderstood. I meant how they (or anyone) feels is irrelevant to the person being allowed to display the flag.

This is your opinion. Other people have different experiences and different opinions. As an example, I have an opinion different from yours.

You state the obvious. And-?

When I see someone displaying a confederate flag, decal, license plate, or other symbol of the confederacy, I see someone who wishes to separate themselves from the United States. I find those who prominently and publicly display the confederate flag (or other, similar, symbol) to be people who believe in slavery, lynching, discrimination, Jim Crow laws, vigilantism, and disdain for the Federal Government (the proud heritage of the south). Until they have shown themselves to be decent human beings, in my mind they are tarred with the brush of the Confederacy and of the Redemption.

Guilty till proven innocent eh? Nice. That is so amusing, I had to laugh.

It is counter-productive and silly to consider anyone with an opinion different from your own to be a "complete moron."

No kidding. It is also silly to think that's what I meant. I can't believe I have to explain this, but the point was that thinking all people displaying/etc the Confederate flag are racists is incredibly moronic, for its closed-mindedness and blind extremism if nothing else. That said, I did drive it home with a big of a sledgehammer; pardon.

For instance, I disagree with your ideas, but I haven't called you a complete moron.

No, instead you made thinly veiled condescending remarks. Better I suppose, but frankly not much of a choice.

We don't do a good job of being impartial or of looking at ourselves dispassionately.

Human nature. I suspect most other countries are similar, but can't say offhand.