Confederate flag causing a flap in SC

[sarge]

*sighs

Yet another story about black people bitching over nothing. I hardly see the big deal with this woman flying her flag. Of course I’m from the north and we have very different views on these things. Instead black people need to start whining about why they aren't fixing their neighborhoods and schools instead of looking for old demons and scape goats to blame .



Why be offended? This situation deserves nothing more than apathy. I suggest you practice it.

Oh, what do you know? It takes a White Male to have an informed opinion about racism.


I admire that you are able to view this public display of racism as not being worth your angst. I agree, personally. I reserve my angst for those that excuse public displays of racism in others, claiming that "Southern Pride" is not usually code for "I believe that I am superior to non-whites".

 

[Chaos]

Why is the south so different from germany in how it treats their history?

From my observation so far, Americans as a group tend to be not so big on the whole "being completely honest about the ugly episodes in their own history" thing.

Yes, the way a certain historical was treated afterwards in Germany could have been better, even much better at times, but over here, only the Nazis themselves claim that the Jews were happy under the Nazi racist legislation. Or, for that matter, that the Nazis took Poland from the Poles fair and square.

 

[epepke]

Far as I know, that flag was created by William Porcher Miles in 1861, but the design was rejected. It was later adopted in a square version, but that flag first showed up in use when Joseph Johnston ordered new flags from the Atlanta Depot in late 1863, specifying that they be rectangular, and they were issued to the Army of Tennessee starting at the end of that year and into 1864. Seperately, a similar flag was used as the Confederate naval jack (flown on ships in port), starting I think in 1863, so that might actually be the first use, but it was a minor one.

There's a bit here, though not all pages are online, and there's an article here.

As far as I know, the purpose was to replace the stars and bars with a new, distinctive and uniform flag to reinspire the troops and symbolize the Confederate Army (or Navy in the case of the naval jack).

Don't know that people rallied around one specific event with that flag, other than the Atlanta campaign in general. If they were "after" anybody, guess I'd have to say General Sherman. In a broader sense, of course, they'd rallied for secession, states' rights and the preservation of slavery in 1861 and were "after" Lincoln, the federal government with its northern power base and the abolitionist interests, but they'd gone through several flags since those days.

Or is that not what I was supposed to answer?

Not bad. Not bad at all. Impressive, but also think 20th century, when it came back. Who brought it back, and where did they restart? Technically, a different organization with the same name.

I had to google to see what the Space Invaders symbol looked like. The Georgia State battle flag, when state flags were used as battle flags, had a funny little Greco-Roman arch with banners; is that what you're thinking of? Picture.

That's not it, but I'll give you this one, because you've been a good sport.

This:

http://txscv.tripod.com/csa.htm

You have to scroll down to the General Lee headquarters flag. Turn the sound off first. Music is very annoying.

And this:

http://www.united-states-flag.com/fortsumter.html

 

[Philosaur]

Here? No one. There? About several hundred, I believe, and I'm sure quite a few more all over the country. Was a general comment.

Well then go argue with them.

Thanks for the sarcasm. You might have noted I provided no anecdote, but made a point of saying it was a general impression and one established over several decades living here.

I note that you have anecdotal evidence, regardless of whether you shared any one of them here.

I would claim nothing of the kind. Maybe, like the Confederate flag, it's a simply traditional symbol of the South and - gasp - has nothing to do with blacks whatsoever.

Riiiight... Cotton, in the deep South, alongside a Confederate battle flag, has *nothing* to do with black people. And if there were manacles and a whip, it'd just be traditional symbols of the S&M community in the deep south, right?

And you base that assumption on....what?

The same thing you based your assumptions on. Or are you now holding me to a higher standard than yourself? You gave your impressions, I gave mine.

Do the people displaying the cotton thing repeatedly harass blacks or do some other racist thing? Or did you just decide to create your own "truth?"

I created my own truth every bit as much as you did when you claim there might be "some loon" who displays the flag and is racist--as if those loons are rare, or even a minority, in the "Southern pride" set.

For example

If you want to insult me personally, grow a pair and do it directly.

Your frustrated-white-guy impotence is as unseemly as those "silly hissies" that black folks have. Grow up.

 

[RenaissanceBiker]

I reserve my angst for those that excuse public displays of racism in others, claiming that "Southern Pride" is not usually code for "I believe that I am superior to non-whites".

Angst is not as helpful as passive aggression at combatting racism. If I lived next to this woman I would just put up a small sign that said, "We're not all like that."

 

[Philosaur]

Let me ask you a straight question. Do you share Bessingers views on race?

MagZ will Godwin a thread by *agreeing* with Hitler.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Oh, what do you know? It takes a White Male to have an informed opinion about racism.


I admire that you are able to view this public display of racism as not being worth your angst. I agree, personally. I reserve my angst for those that excuse public displays of racism in others, claiming that "Southern Pride" is not usually code for "I believe that I am superior to non-whites".

Just for the record I'm black. Black people up here chuckle about stuff like this. Racism isn't as overt in the north as it is in the south. It's usually much more subtle and very sneaky. And hell the confederate flag could symbolize that, but I just don't think this warrants attention. If this is hate speech then lots of white southerners must practice it. I'm just not seeing the importance of this situation, when there is literally a million of these flags flying in the south.

 

[sarge]

Angst is not as helpful as passive aggression at combatting racism. If I lived next to this woman I would just put up a small sign that said, "We're not all like that."

I'd probably mount directional speakers, pointed directly at her house, and play rap music all night. Maybe Prodigy's "Smack my bitch up".

 

[ponderingturtle]

From my observation so far, Americans as a group tend to be not so big on the whole "being completely honest about the ugly episodes in their own history" thing.

Yes, the way a certain historical was treated afterwards in Germany could have been better, even much better at times, but over here, only the Nazis themselves claim that the Jews were happy under the Nazi racist legislation. Or, for that matter, that the Nazis took Poland from the Poles fair and square.

And I wonder how much of that was in this case due to jim crow. It was a longing for the past for so long that its racism as was present at the time is forgotten.

 

[sarge]

Just for the record I'm black.

I know. That is waht makes my initial sentence humerous.

Black people up here chuckle about stuff like this. Racism isn't as overt in the north as it is in the south. It's usually much more subtle and very sneaky. And hell the confederate flag could symbolize that, but I just don't think this warrants attention. If this is hate speech then lots of white southerners must practice it. I'm just not seeing the importance of this situation, when there is literally a million of these flags flying in the south.

I've lived everywhere, almost. In my experience, the quality of racism is not significantly different in the South, except that it is focused almost exclusively on Black Americans, where as other regions may have other targets.

Down here, we proceed about our lives without often experiencing overt signs of racism. The most commonly occuring exception is the Confederate flag, and it is just common enough that it becomes part of the background. It attracts attention only when some moron goes to some length to display it in a manner designed to draw attention. In these instances, it is almost always accurate to assume that racism is a component of the display.

 

[epepke]

From my observation so far, Americans as a group tend to be not so big on the whole "being completely honest about the ugly episodes in their own history" thing.[/quote[

Europeans are much better at talking about the ugly episodes in American history. They also tell me that the Roma and the Jews and the Pakis and the Belgians up North who speak Flemish and the Belgians down South who speak French and the Irish and the English and the Scots and the Welsh and the Germans and the French and those people down the road who talk funny are Just Bad People, and Bigotry Has Nothing To Do With It At All!

 

[FattyCatty]

<snip>
Nothing against you personally at all, but how is how you feel relevant? Her place, her right. Don't like it, fly a flag they don't like or something.

I'm also frankly tired of the hypocrisy of people who think burning the U.S. flag is one's "right" but the right to simply fly a flag on your own property? Goodness no, ban that!!

The juxtaposition of the two highlighted sentences made me laugh; the use of the word hypocrisy was also amusing. How the OP feels is the start of a discussion: he recounts his reaction and wonders how other people react to flying the confederate flag.

It can be a trolling thing as mentioned above but my experience/impression is that usually it's simply a pride of one's roots, pride in the South in general kind of thing. You have to realize that back then, the northern U.S. and the southern U.S. were almost like 2 distinct countries. Very different in very many ways and much distrust/dislike on both sides of the other.

This is your opinion. Other people have different experiences and different opinions. As an example, I have an opinion different from yours.

When I see someone displaying a confederate flag, decal, license plate, or other symbol of the confederacy, I see someone who wishes to separate themselves from the United States. I find those who prominently and publicly display the confederate flag (or other, similar, symbol) to be people who believe in slavery, lynching, discrimination, Jim Crow laws, vigilantism, and disdain for the Federal Government (the proud heritage of the south). Until they have shown themselves to be decent human beings, in my mind they are tarred with the brush of the Confederacy and of the Redemption.

Of course not (with rare exception, there will always be some loon like that around) and only a complete moron thinks so. It is about "Southern pride" in general.
<snip>

It is counter-productive and silly to consider anyone with an opinion different from your own to be a "complete moron." For instance, I disagree with your ideas, but I haven't called you a complete moron. My thoughts are my own.

From my observation so far, Americans as a group tend to be not so big on the whole "being completely honest about the ugly episodes in their own history" thing.
<snip>

Indeed, the reverse seems to be the case, at least institutionally. Efforts are made to slant what is taught in schools to fit political or religious agendas; the fact that the United States was basically stolen from the previous occupants is minimized or ignored; other cultures are presented as somehow inferior to that of the United States, and their contributions to the country ignored; mistakes by government or industry are covered up or trivialized rather than brought into the open and used as lessons. We don't do a good job of being impartial or of looking at ourselves dispassionately.

And if the people in our country won't see the reality of events in our past or of actions we've taken, it's hard for us to see the present clearly. An example of people thinking this way is given by those who display symbols of the confederacy.

 

[GreyArea]

An accurate statement about the Stars and Bars plus the word "vexillological." I like.

Thank you, epepke.

This: http://txscv.tripod.com/csa.htm

You have to scroll down to the General Lee headquarters flag. Turn the sound off first. Music is very annoying.

And this: http://www.united-states-flag.com/fortsumter.html

That's funny! I never noticed that before.

Meanwhile, the Secession Flag reminds me of Pac-Man.

And people still put automatic MIDI files on webpages?

 

[GreyArea]

You obviously don't get down to Georgia much.

I was there on the ground for a week or so once last century. Since the current state flag was adopted, I've only passed through by train at night. I'll probably see one in person if I ever get to DragonCon.

I think the current flag looks fine, and is certainly a better design than a boring "seal on a blue bedsheet" which is all too common among state flags. But what do the stars represent?

 

[bonzombiekitty]

But what do the stars represent?

According to the link the stars represent the 13 original states of the USA.

 

[Checkmite]

I could find no link to a story confirming your assertion that African Americans engaged in protests as you describe. Do you have a link?

I'm guessing it was an email rumor; similar to the anonymously-attributed post-Katrina stories about black refugees "trashing" host facilities and abusing volunteers, which actual volunteers who give their names and can be confirmed to have been present at the locations involved say never really happened.

 

[Piggy]

I do wonder why the southerners who fly the 'stars and bars' for reasons of pride don't fly the 'Don't tread on me' flag instead, it was created by a man from South Carolina, and it was one of the first symbols of a winning cause, the Revolutionary War. And it doesn't carry the baggage the 'stars and bars' does, since it's not a symbol just for white southerners to take pride in.

That's common down here, too.

 

[Piggy]

good money for bad BBQ.

Agreed.

 

[Metullus]

You should not considered your southern ancestors to have been foolish. You disgrace them.

As usual you have no idea of what it is you are talking about.

I'll give you a hint - neither of them were racists.

 

[Checkmite]

From my observation so far, Americans as a group tend to be not so big on the whole "being completely honest about the ugly episodes in their own history" thing.

Yes, the way a certain historical was treated afterwards in Germany could have been better, even much better at times, but over here, only the Nazis themselves claim that the Jews were happy under the Nazi racist legislation. Or, for that matter, that the Nazis took Poland from the Poles fair and square.

I'm not so sure that's true. Of individual subcultures - such as Confederate apologists - certainly; but Americans as a whole? I went to elementary school on a military base in the 80's, and we certainly covered the atrocious treatment of Native Americans in social studies class, as well as took a field trip to a local museum which covered regional Indian culture, and the abusive treatment was part of the history portrayed. The US National Park Service maintains a WWII Japanese-American internment camp as a public museum and is rather straightforward and non-apologist about how wrong the situation was. And despite the best efforts of fans of the Lost Cause, American school textbooks still explicitly state that the Civil War was fought above all else over slavery. Sorry - states' rights to have slaves. The US government publicly acknowledged its role in the Tuskegee syphilis experiments, maintains an informational webpage about them, and is currently footing the victims' children's health care bills. I wouldn't say the US is particularly bad at acknowledging the bad things in its past.