Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[icerat]

First of all the burglar, Rudy Guede, had a history of entering through the second floor windows, using a rock to break them.

Maybe it was dumb, but not difficult. the grating below the window provided for a very easy climb. Defence lawyer Maori ordered someone to climb exactly that way and presented that reconstruction yesterday.

well that covers that then.

 

[pilot padron]

Jeeeez

The poll that Pilot Padron is so fond of has rather weirdly remained on a static 69 - 31 % ratio all day, all through the day.

I voted on it. Don't votes change the dynamic ?

I just said it was running "about two to one".

Please do not feel a personal 24/7 poll watch on the grandeur of the sentries at tombs of unknown soldiers to be required of you

Please do carry on some other more productive activities during your day.

PS:
Your one vote added to about 2000 probably has little or no immediate discernible effect on the 'dynamic'.
Hope this helps

 

[Paninaro]

gee, it couldn't have anything to do with her blaming him for the murder could it?

And now he's accusing her of murder together with the police. He's had his revenge. He's also accusing Knox of being a she-devil. Knox did never say anytning lika that about Lumumba. His persisting that she should get life for murder and has done so for four years, yet has no idea if she's guilty or not.

He cannot understand why Knox was made to accuse him by the police and he trusts them. When she's saying she was hit by the police he doesn't stand up and say that the same thing happened to him, a thing which he only speaks of in private conversation.

 

[pilot padron]

OK. Here goes

Is there a point where one watches you argue this absolute certainty of acquittal so exaggeratedly over and over and over again ....

That one might just wonder maybe you are just trying to convince yourself of something that, at this point, no mortal being could ever possibly know 'with absolute certainty'

Hi Pilot
I would sincerely like to hear your opinion and reasons for your opinion. I would have been unable to form my opinion if it weren't for opinions and iseas from both sides.
Thanks

I personally believe them guilty.

1) I personally do not think the C&V report completely rules out the knife and/or bra.
2) I have 'reasonable doubt' about contamination being proven in any way as a total disqualifier.
3) The shocking and extremely informative expert admission of "anything is possible" when being cross examined by Prosecution strongly supports my #2,
4) Even without the bra and knife, many have been correctly convicted on much less than the remaining mountain of evidence.
5) I never got over the initial shocking inability to answer in 1000 words or less, or in at least 9 different attempts, the simple question of 'where were you when Meredith was murdered'.

When you tell me:
1) you were too drugged up to remember much
2) then later tell me, when obvious inconsistencies begin to emerge, at latest count, 9 different conflicting versions of answers
3) then qualify and attempt to 'explain' the contradictory inconsistencies that apparently are evident even to yourself, by telling me "it is the best truth you can think of"

Pardon me, but I think earlier descriptions of your 'quirky' liar liar pants on fire tendencies are indeed accurate.
(Mary, I avoid both the extensively contested classic and pathological in favor of a more elementary description)

Additionally, would one be in error to wonder if you were so memory inhibited due to drugs, maybe one of the truths beyond your "best" is that you murdered Meredith, as much evidence still indicates? ?

Additionally, when you suddenly tell me at an unusually suspicious sequence in the investigation "you pricked Meredith's finger with the knife", I believe you are telling me much more than any later tests what *was* on the knife.

I tell you this in an earnest answer to your direct question, and not in any way as an invitation for additional debate.

I have a lot of reasonable doubt about what the Italian Courts (deliberately plural) will do in the future.
I will fully accept their decision just as I accept the OJ and Anthony decisions.
I highly suspect and generally ignore those who argue with self-aggrandizing supernatural abilities to be able to predict future events with IMHO laughable "absolute certainty"

These prolific individuals may in effect be correct.
In which case, their intuition is to be applauded.
However, even a color enhanced definition of intuition will not include "absolute certainty about future events".
Kinda like sleuthing writing styles and making tiresome off topic repetitive ridiculously authoritative remarks and innuendos about identities.

 

[icerat]

I have to say Pilot, as someone coming in to this fresh, apart from the bra and knife, both of which aren't what I'd call high quality evidence, I'm yet to encounter any evidence implicating these two.

 

[Katody Matrass]

A word about the "false accusation". Some of the facts that Kaosium wrote about are very clear now.

On 2nd of November the body is discovered.

On the 3rd Amanda's and Raffaele's phones are already wiretapped by the cops. They go through the phone records and discover that on the night of murder Amanda exchanges text messages with Lumumba, right after then her and Raffaele's phones go silent for the night. She set up a meeting.

They look through Lumumba's phone record and see that his phone pinged in the vicinity of Via Della Pergola on the night of the murder. The next day his IMEI number changed. He swapped his phone to cover his movements. They know he's an immigrant and he's black. They got their murderer.

They start putting screws to Amanda, interrogating her night and day. She is sleep deprived and feels "they treat her like a criminal".

From the wiretaps they know Amanda's mother is coming to Perugia on November 6 to take her away. They have to act quick.

On November 5 They organize a special night. Everybody is there at the police station. Mignini waiting, Giobbi comes from Rome to overseer, all of the squadra mobile cop heroes. After a few hours they break her, she "buckles and admits what they knew to be true". They arrest Lumumba before dawn and organize a triumphant press conference. Case closed.

 

[MiloMinderbinder]

I have to say Pilot, as someone coming in to this fresh, apart from the bra and knife, both of which aren't what I'd call high quality evidence, I'm yet to encounter any evidence implicating these two.

I agree. I'm no expert and late to the discussion, but the one consistency among those who believe Knox and her boyfriend are guilty is a lot of speculation and not a hard look at the evidence and lack of evidence.

 

[Rolfe]

How tall is Rudy Guede? I see references that he's tall and skinny, and a basketball player, so I suppose breaking the window, then jumping up to put your hands on the sill and lifting yourself up is possible. The whole "no scuff marks" thing is silly. I've "broken" into (my own!) 2nd floor apartment a similar way and I didn't leave any scuff marks.

I guess you are all Americans and actually talking about a first floor window? This is the only way I can make sense of this.

If other ways of entry were barred then it would be a plausible choice. Still, wouldn't Meredith have reacted? I suppose he might have tried the door first and she was asleep. Then again she was dressed wasn't she?

The overwhelming likelihood is that Rudy broke in around 8.30 or just after, before Meredith returned home. He was in the house when she came in, possibly on the toilet. He didn't try to go back the way he came (Filomena's window) for whatever reason. Personally I think it would be a lot harder to climb down than up, and he had always intended to leave via the door if it could be unlocked from the inside. Meredith may have heard him, and confronted him, or he may have tried to sneak out of the door but found it locked, and then confronted Meredith initially with the idea of getting the key from her.

The scenario of girl returns home to empty house, surprises a burglar, confrontation ensues and this escalates to rape and bloody murder, isn't exactly unheard of. Everything about this case points to that explanation.

The window thing doesn't make a lot of sense, but as you say it doesn't implicate Knox and Sollecito anyway. I noticed too that some "guilters" use a lack of Rudy's DNA in that room as evidence he was never in there, but a lack of Knox and Sollecito DNA in Meredith's room is dismissed as unimportant.

Good point. I'm not sure how comprehensively they tested that room anyway. And the "glass on top of clothes" is only Filomena's opinion, there's no photographic evidence. Also, although she denies it, there's reason to believe there were some clothes strewn about the room anyway, which would of course have been under any subsequent broken glass.

There is also the possibility that Rudy chucked the rock through the window to see if the coast was clear, and when nobody reacted to that, then broke in another way, perhaps through the front door. The balcony that guilters go on about seems to have had sturdy double-glazed French windows, which would not have been easy to break at all.

Rolfe.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

no chance to speak to a lawyer

Would you mind saying a bit more about that?

I assume you're talking about the November 9th Matteini ruling. I didn't realize Lumumba defended himself for two hours in front of Knox. Is there a description of that hearing somewhere?

I don't see how she could have known who killed Meredith. But I didn't realize Patrick pleaded innocence before her eyes. I would like to know if that hearing provided a way for her to clarify that she had NOT been at the cottage and had NOT seen Patrick at the cottage.

Wildhorses,

She had not been allowed to see a lawyer in the days and hours leading up to the appearance before Judge Matteini. Therefore, she would have had to have made a statement essentially without the benefit of legal counsel (which I think would have been a bad idea). Also, I do no recall (off the top of my head) on which day her full memory returned to her.

 

[icerat]

I guess you are all Americans and actually talking about a first floor window? This is the only way I can make sense of this.

Ahhh, sorry, I'm an aussie - Ground Floor. First Floor.

The overwhelming likelihood is that Rudy broke in around 8.30 or just after, before Meredith returned home. He was in the house when she came in, possibly on the toilet. He didn't try to go back the way he came (Filomena's window) for whatever reason. Personally I think it would be a lot harder to climb down than up, and he had always intended to leave via the door if it could be unlocked from the inside. Meredith may have heard him, and confronted him, or he may have tried to sneak out of the door but found it locked, and then confronted Meredith initially with the idea of getting the key from her.

The scenario of girl returns home to empty house, surprises a burglar, confrontation ensues and this escalates to rape and bloody murder, isn't exactly unheard of. Everything about this case points to that explanation.

that makes sense

Good point. I'm not sure how comprehensively they tested that room anyway. And the "glass on top of clothes" is only Filomena's opinion, there's no photographic evidence. Also, although she denies it, there's reason to believe there were some clothes strewn about the room anyway, which would of course have been under any subsequent broken glass.

A student room *without* some clothes strewn on the floor? Now that should be eligible for the MDC

 

[bolint]

Hundreds of files, including videos, had timestamp indicating they were accessed while in police custody. It is not disputed.

Where can I find the details?

I think it was extremely incompetent and stupid for the cops to allow such destruction of evidence. IIRC cops used the PC to browse the web and watched some of the movies.

If true then it is extremely stupid, indeed.
Is it true?

It was filed along with the appeal papers. I believe it's in the case file. You may want to ask someone who has access.

If only I have one.

But I would expect at least a little from the defence.
How is it that they don't show anything specific from their sure-fire winning evidence?
Do they think that Hellmann will plough through the screensaver logs and Mac admin handbooks Saturday afternoon?

You may want to rethink that argument to make it more logical.

No. It is good as it is. In order to conclude the 6 minute claim the screensaver's autoactivation should be set to only a few minutes. This, however, makes watching films very annoying. You may say, that the media player may disable the screensaver. (I tried my Windows, it does not disable it, but Raf's was a Mac, so for the sake of argument let's continue with this assumption).
If, however, the screensaver is not active during the alleged film watching then how could they base the claimed human activity on it?

You're mistaken. The defence didn't claim browsing the web. Just media playback.

Are you giving the lie to Raffaele? In his diary he says:
"I remember that I surfed the Internet for a while"

 

[Chris_Halkides]

not much of a hearing, really

All three were there, lawyered up, before Matteini so it could have provided a way to clarify.
Amanda, however, exercised her right to silence.

bolint,

Amanda was not allowed to see a lawyer (p. 192, MiI) prior to appearing before Judge Matteini. Judge Matteini also had no legal briefs from the defense attorneys for the same reason.

 

[Rolfe]

A student room *without* some clothes strewn on the floor? Now that should be eligible for the MDC

Ah, but Filomena wasn't a student, she was in her late twenties, and a legal secretary.

That proves she couldn't possibly have been a bit untidy in her room, so Knox and Sollecito brutally murdered Meredith Kercher.

Rolfe.

 

[bolint]

Amanda was not allowed to see a lawyer (p. 192, MiI) prior to appearing before Judge Matteini.

So she could not recognize Lumumba before Matteini without consulting a lawyer?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Stardust metadata

So she could not recognize Lumumba before Matteini without consulting a lawyer?

bolint,

I am not sure what you are asking here. With respect to another issue you raised, the time of opening of the file Stardust was lost when police used Raffaele's computer on the morning of 6 November, as reported at Perugia Shock and also mentioned, IIRC, in a report by Andrea Vogt.

 

[pilot padron]

May I interrupt to say

-

Interesting Kevin,

Lion King what say you?

Dave

..... just more of the usual 65,000+ generating, typical pedantic parsing, that does nothing except make 65,001

 

[bolint]

I am not sure what you are asking here.

There is a man before her, defending himself against accusations based on her confession.
Why does she need prior consultation with a lawyer to say that all she had said about him was baseless?
(Spare me the "everybody knows that it was internalised" explanation)

With respect to another issue you raised, the time of opening of the file Stardust was lost when police used Raffaele's computer on the morning of 6 November, as reported at Perugia Shock and also mentioned, IIRC, in a report by Andrea Vogt.

How do we know that it was police's action that changed that timestamp?
How is it that Stardust is not even mentioned in the appeal?

 

[lionking]

..... just more of the usual 65,000+ generating, typical pedantic parsing, that does nothing except make 65,001

Actually I did offer to PM AmyStrange what my position was within Victoria Police (because I'm not about to disclose it and possibly identify myself in the main thread) but he was gracious enough to decline.

 

[icerat]

There is a man before her, defending himself against accusations based on her confession.
Why does she need prior consultation with a lawyer to say that all she had said about him was baseless?
(Spare me the "everybody knows that it was internalised" explanation)

Quick clarification .... this was all getting translated in to english for here during his hearing? That's surprising to me.

 

[js202]

Ah, but Filomena wasn't a student, she was in her late twenties, and a legal secretary.

That proves she couldn't possibly have been a bit untidy in her room, so Knox and Sollecito brutally murdered Meredith Kercher.

Rolfe.

Right. And I've learned in recent days that the standard guilter rejoinder to anyone who questions this is that one has cast aspersions on the integrity of a sanctified witness for the prosecution.

As opposed to the possibility that, based on the fact that Filomena was still living in communal circumstances among students, and on the fact that the photos of the room demonstrate her tendency toward clutter, honest persons can disagree as to this person's perceptions about her own tidiness.