Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[bolint]

Hellmann will lead the way to an innocent verdict.

I don't think they will be declared innocent even if acquitted.

 

[bolint]

How many cops were there all total getting her "witness" statement the night of November 5th? If you believe there was maybe (at most) one or two and not at least eight (the number of cops at least who signed her statement), then it will be close to impossible to prove to you something very underhanded was going on (why do you need eight cops to take a witness statement), and thus we will just have to agree to disagree.

Not even Amanda says that there were so many cops interrogating her that night.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

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And then get slapped with Slander and take a chance at spending up to twelve years in jail.

It's the kind of situation that breeds peer pressure and a culture of going along to get along or go to jail.

In Lion King's defense, it's obvious (s)he was an honest cop.

Lionking has not claimed to have been a cop, at least not that I have seen. He states that he worked for the police department, and lets people draw their own conclusions.

 

[Draca]

I don't think they will be declared innocent even if acquitted.

I thought guilty or innocent were the choices? Does Italy have a not proven option?

 

[Kaosium]

It was not that vague.
Amanda sat through the hearing before Matteini and she availed herself of the option of not responding while Lumuba was desperately defending himself in vain for more than two hours right before the eyes of Amanda (and Raffaele, of course).

All because she had been coerced.
Give me a break.

Bolint, how on earth would she know that Patrick was innocent? She's already retracted the confession after writing the note and been accused of 'changing her story.' Therefore she's no longer saying she was at the cottage and thus couldn't know if Patrick was there--but also she couldn't know that Patrick was not. She knows that the police sure think him guilty, they arrested him and all. She doesn't find out until days later that everything the police said about him being without an alibi is false. They tried to convince her that Patrick was guilty, it wasn't the other way around, read the note and tell me there's any accusatory tone.

The police arrested Patrick Lumumba, they charged him with the murder of Meredith Kercher, then they tried to blame it all on the foreign exchange student they coerced those statements out of, ones the reading of which can cause a pause for thought as to how they were obtained.

 

[AmyStrange]

It was not that vague.
Amanda sat through the hearing before Matteini and she availed herself of the option of not responding while Lumuba was desperately defending himself in vain for more than two hours right before the eyes of Amanda (and Raffaele, of course).

All because she had been coerced.
Give me a break.

-

Bolint,

how did they (A&R) know Patrick was not there during the murder? The only way they would know for sure is if they WERE at the crime.

Why did the cops go arrest Lumumba almost immediately after getting that accusation without investigating it to make sure. The only thing that makes sense is they forced Amanda to say those things or go to jail for 30 years. Giving her a smack to the back of the head for emphasis.

And what about the case closed comment later that day where they said they kept at Amanda until she told them what they knew to be the truth?

You can spin it all you want, but the statements are not coherent or consistent with someone who is absolutely sure of what happened. It's just weird in it's entirety and almost completely Incongruous.

False confessions have and will continue to happen and I hope to GAWD you never have to find out in the first person the truth of this.

If you can't even remotely admit that these things might possibly have happened or could possibly happen, then we will just have to agree to disagree.

Dave

 

[AmyStrange]

Not even Amanda says that there were so many cops interrogating her that night.

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Bolint,

she said there were four cops in the room at a time (I think) and they worked in tandem. By the way, it was a dark room and some stood behind her so how could she recognize all the new ones coming in and leaving?

Let me ask you and everyone else here. How many cops signed her statements as witnesses? I think it was at least eight. Why so many witnesses if they weren't that many people there interrogating her?

Dave

 

[AmyStrange]

Lionking has not claimed to have been a cop, at least not that I have seen. He states that he worked for the police department, and lets people draw their own conclusions.

-

Interesting Kevin,

Lion King what say you?

Dave

 

[Kaosium]

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Bolint,

she said there were four cops in the room at a time (I think) and they worked in tandem. By the way, it was a dark room and some stood behind her so how could she recognize all the new ones coming in and leaving?

Let me ask you and everyone else here. How many cops signed her statements as witnesses? I think it was at least eight. Why so many witnesses if they weren't that many people there interrogating her?

Dave

She said five to ten at a time in her testimony, and twelve cops were announced eligible for the calunnia charge, though only eight filed.

 

[Antony]

It was not that vague.
Amanda sat through the hearing before Matteini and she availed herself of the option of not responding while Lumuba was desperately defending himself in vain for more than two hours right before the eyes of Amanda (and Raffaele, of course).

All because she had been coerced.
Give me a break.

No, you give me a break.

Amanda was told by police that they had cast-iron evidence that Patrick was the murderer, and she was not at the scene, so how would she know different? What would you expect her to say?

 

[AmyStrange]

It was not that vague.
Amanda sat through the hearing before Matteini and she availed herself of the option of not responding while Lumuba was desperately defending himself in vain for more than two hours right before the eyes of Amanda (and Raffaele, of course).

All because she had been coerced.
Give me a break.

-

Bolint,

It was vague, incoherent, and incongruous, She never says she saw Patrick kill Meredith (there may have been someone else in the other room that killed Meredith rather than Patrick, for all you can tell by her statement) nor does she say she saw Meredith die. You could even conclude from her statement that it was all a prank. Prove me wrong.

It was a false confession lacking in any kind of detail. No time of death, she isn't able to describe the murder weapon, what Meredith or Patrick were wearing. It reads like a dream,

Dave

P.S. why not give Amanda a break

 

[Mary_H]

well i can tell you one thing - i wouldn't convict a witch - i'm surprised mignini's head hasn't exploded yet.

btw over what distance can a witch cast a spell? i'd think some north west seattle resident would have had some flooding problems or some tragedy if in fact she was a witch

AHA! Maybe it's not the distance but the speed, Grinder. So those neutrinos were not traveling from Switzerland to Italy after all, they were traveling from Italy to Switzerland!

Amanda really has used her time in prison well.

 

[AmyStrange]

She said five to ten at a time in her testimony, and twelve cops were announced eligible for the calunnia charge, though only eight filed.

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Thank you Kaosium,

I knew I could count on you for the true facts. You are a jewel.

Sorry Bolint for underestimating how many cops there were in the room with her.

By the way, where did you get the fact that she didn't say there were as many cops as K just stated. I've found K to be very reliable in stating the facts,

Dave

 

[Mary_H]

Frank has a new blog up: http://perugiashock.com/2011/09/27/luca-maori-“the-police-are-nice-only-some-cops-are-criminals”/

39,952 wiretapped calls......but remember, they couldn't record the interrogation because of..... ya know......budget cuts.

This is actually a great opportunity for a bunch of guilters to save face.

One moment, there are also phenomena of “editing”. I’m trying to read them as mistakes but it’s hard there..

The message was saying “Ci vediamo più tardi, buona serata”. But they told the judge that it was only “Ci vediamo più tardi”. Can it be a mistake?

“13 October 2006″, Raffaele writes on his blog that he was having strong emotions (his mother was just dead, etc.). But they gave to judge Matteini a copy of the page without the year, only “13 Ottobre”. So Matteini thought that Raffaele was having strong emotions right on those days before the murder. Also this editing was by mistake?
Are we still sure that the translator who translated Foxy Knoxy with Volpe Cattiva (Evil Fox) was just a bad translator? Or someone told him to translate that way?

If they had had any idea the police were manipulating information like that, they surely would not have judged the case so hastily.

 

[Mary_H]

Blame Mignini for that one ! It was exactly what he asked of her. Then like some sort of child molester, after he gets what he wants from her, he threatens consequences if she tells. <snip>

You have this captured the essential nature of this case, GreyFox.

 

[Fine]

Folks, I'm not sure why there's all this confusion about what the charges against Knox and Sollecito are; it's all spelled out at the beginning of the Massei-Cristiani report (surely "our friends elsewhere" translated this part?):

A) killing Meredith;

B) taking Sollecito's knife out of his house for no good reason;

C) forcing Meredith to "suffer sexual acts";

D) stealing 300 euros and two cell phones from Meredith;

E) staging a burglary in Filomena's room;

F) falsely accusing Patrick Lumumba (AK only).

These were the charges tried in Massei's court; convictions were obtained on all except for the 300 euros portion of D). Sentencing was figured as follows (Massei-Cristiani p. 423): Knox and Sollecito were given the maximum sentence for crime A), which is 24 years, with crime C) effectively being incorporated as an aggravating circumstance; B), D) (with respect to the telephones), and E) added on another year; and F) another year still for Amanda.

All these convictions and sentences are now being appealed in Hellmann's court.

Additionally, in a totally separate proceeding, Knox is being charged with slandering the police during her testimony in the Massei trial. (This sounds absolutely ridiculous to US/UK observers, but perhaps to be charitable to the Italian system, we might say that this is approximately analogous to being charged with perjury.) The first-level trial in that case has not even started.

Now, with regard to civil suits: as I explained above, Italy allows these to be attached to criminal prosecutions. So, in addition to the criminal penalties explained above, the Massei convictions on charges A) through F) resulted in Knox and Sollecito being sentenced to pay monetary damages to members of the Kercher family and the owner of the cottage on Via Della Pergola, and in Knox being sentenced to pay monetary damages to Patrick Lumumba.
I also believe that the police officers involved in the interrogation are likewise joining the calunnia case against Amanda Knox (for which, again, the first trial hasn't started yet) as a civil party, being represented by -- guess who -- Francesco Maresca.

__________________

Komponisto,

As a footnote, the lovebirds were also ordered by the Massei court to pay lawyer fees for the Kerchers, Patrick, and the landlord of the cottage. (Patrick's fees to be paid only by Amanda.)

The Kerchers were represented by Francesco Maresca and Serena Perna. Massei awarded these fees:

Maresca's fees = 160,000 euros
Perna's fees = 100,000 euros
__________________________
Total fees awarded to Maresca & Perna = 260,000 euros = 353,000 US dollars

These fees were calculated after about two years into the legal process. Now, about four years into the process, these fees are probably double, in which case.............

Today, total due to Maresca & Perna = 520,000 euros = 706,000 US dollars.

///

 

[Wildhorses]

It was not that vague.
Amanda sat through the hearing before Matteini and she availed herself of the option of not responding while Lumuba was desperately defending himself in vain for more than two hours right before the eyes of Amanda (and Raffaele, of course).

All because she had been coerced.
Give me a break.

Would you mind saying a bit more about that?

I assume you're talking about the November 9th Matteini ruling. I didn't realize Lumumba defended himself for two hours in front of Knox. Is there a description of that hearing somewhere?

I don't see how she could have known who killed Meredith. But I didn't realize Patrick pleaded innocence before her eyes. I would like to know if that hearing provided a way for her to clarify that she had NOT been at the cottage and had NOT seen Patrick at the cottage.

 

[bolint]

I thought guilty or innocent were the choices? Does Italy have a not proven option?

The cause "Insufficient proof" has been abolished in the new penal code of the 90s.

The law says:
"il giudice pronuncia sentenza di assoluzione anche quando manca, è insufficiente o è contraddittoria la prova che il fatto sussiste, che l'imputato lo ha commesso, che il fatto costituisce reato o che il reato è stato commesso da persona imputabile".

So legally there is no difference or consequence, but judges can include the cause of acquittal based on the above list of causes.

 

[AmyStrange]

The cause "Insufficient proof" has been abolished in the new penal code of the 90s.

The law says:
"il giudice pronuncia sentenza di assoluzione anche quando manca, è insufficiente o è contraddittoria la prova che il fatto sussiste, che l'imputato lo ha commesso, che il fatto costituisce reato o che il reato è stato commesso da persona imputabile".

So legally there is no difference or consequence, but judges can include the cause of acquittal based on the above list of causes.

-

Interesting. Thank you Bolint.

 

[bolint]

Would you mind saying a bit more about that?

I assume you're talking about the November 9th Matteini ruling. I didn't realize Lumumba defended himself for two hours in front of Knox. Is there a description of that hearing somewhere?

Only news reports:

DA UNO DEI NOSTRI INVIATI PERUGIA - «Giudice, io in quella casa non ci sono mai entrato, ho sedici testimoni che mi hanno visto nel mio locale la sera del delitto, ho battuto scontrini dalle dieci e mezza fino all' una, ma come potete pensare che sia stato io?». Diya Patrick Lumumba parla per quasi tre ore, nell' interrogatorio di convalida di fronte a Claudia Matteini. Anche Raffaele Sollecito, il laureando pugliese, si discolpa: «Io quella notte, in quella casa, non ci sono stato. Ero a casa mia, la sera alle undici mi ha chiamato mio padre, ho navigato in internet fino all' una, una e mezza, poi sono andato a dormire». Invece Amanda «viso d' angelo» Knox, la ventenne americana insieme con gli altri due accusata di aver sgozzato Meredith Kercher, ripete una sola frase: «Mi avvalgo della facoltà di non rispondere».

http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/..._alibi_sedici_testimoni__co_9_071109108.shtml