Could the very high rate of mental illness in Europe be related to religion decline?

[Sun Countess]

"Sin of Humanity"?
Are you now saying that simply being Human is a sin? Isn't that the most bizarre idea.

That's always been my biggest problem with the concept of "sin," because it always just boils down to being human. If you think anything negative, that's a sin, if you're a fertile woman who bleeds monthly, that's a sin, if you get angry at someone, that's a sin, if you think about sex, that's a sin....and the list goes on and on. Basically if you're not worshipping God 24/7, then you are committing some sort of sin, probably several. It's all just nonsense.

Joobz implied I said all strokes are cause by sin. That is just one of "many" inaccuracies about my positions that have been stated over the last year or so. In a way that encourages me because it shows me some skeptics are constantly forced to be inaccurate about my positions in order to appear to make an effective response.

Obviously, you never say anything as forceful as "all." You won't even go halfway with most of your posts, but you use weasel words to imply things. Nearly all of your posts contain some variant of "maybe" or "could be" or "possibly," which is why other posters are constantly asking you to clarify your position. State your opinions more forcefully, and be ready to back them up. Don't weasel around some idea, and then when someone calls you on it, go back and say that the person is creating a strawman or attacking the arguer.

Billy Graham has a simple definition of sin. It is anything contrary to the will of God.

Billy Graham is a hateful misogynistic, power-hungry nutjob. I'm not too interested in his definition of "sin" or his interpretation of the "will of God."

The Bible which has been around for thousands of years and is the greatest selling book of all time (by most accounts) would seem like a good place to look for the will and the laws of God.

That book shows the God you claim to worship as a hateful, misogynistic, power-hungry nutjob. I'm not too surprised that Billy Graham gets his ideas from him. Why should I have to become a self-loathing and immoral person just to satisfy the jealous whims of the creation of a long-dead society? It's not my fault that other people don't want to let go of an ancient fairytale. Grimm's fairytales have been around for a long time and read by millions of people, but it's not a basis for modern morality and enlightenment.

 

[six7s]

... you use weasel words to imply things. Nearly all of your posts contain some variant of "maybe" or "could be" or "possibly," which is why other posters are constantly asking you to clarify your position. State your opinions more forcefully, and be ready to back them up. Don't weasel around some idea, and then when someone calls you on it, go back and say that the person is creating a strawman or attacking the arguer.

Bravo SC, this is so superb that it can't be over emphasised

Please DOC, take the time to read, comprehend and accept that Sun Countess' words of advice are invaluable if you want to become a critical thinker - you have nothing to lose but your delusions

 

[dafydd]

Billy Graham is a hateful misogynistic, power-hungry nutjob. I'm not too interested in his definition of "sin" or his interpretation of the "will of God."


.

Billy Graham befriended the still-in-the-closet hypocrite Cliff Richard and the thankfully late nutcase Mary Whitehouse. Enough said.

 

[six7s]

Cliff is NOT gay!!!11!!!

OK... so his boyfriend might be...

But he ISN'T!!11!!

 

[citizenzen]

Bravo SC, this is so superb that it can't be over emphasized ...

I disagree.

People who speak forcibly and don't allow in their argument for some degree of uncertainty usually sound like blowhard idiots to me.

A well placed "maybe" or "perhaps" is often needed to keep one from sounding like a mindless zealot.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Cliff is NOT gay!!!11!!!

OK... so his boyfriend might be...

But he ISN'T!!11!!

(And I'm not one who generally uses emoticons.)

 

[joobz]

I disagree.

People who speak forcibly and don't allow in their argument for some degree of uncertainty usually sound like blowhard idiots to me.

A well placed "maybe" or "perhaps" is often needed to keep one from sounding like a mindless zealot.

It's one thing to be uncertain, it's another to hide behind the uncertainty.
If you are making a claim, you must defend the claim. If you are unable to do so, you must withdraw the claim.

DOC has made an argument that mental illness rates are tied to religious decline. When challenging his mechanism of this claim, he asserts that he said "maybe" and "Not all" and therefore acts as though he need to defend the claim. Rational debate doesn't work this way.

 

[dafydd]

It's one thing to be uncertain, it's another to hide behind the uncertainty.
If you are making a claim, you must defend the claim. If you are unable to do so, you must withdraw the claim.

DOC has made an argument that mental illness rates are tied to religious decline. When challenging his mechanism of this claim, he asserts that he said "maybe" and "Not all" and therefore acts as though he need to defend the claim. Rational debate doesn't work this way.

Being rational and believing in a god do not go together.

 

[citizenzen]

If you are making a claim, you must defend the claim. If you are unable to do so, you must withdraw the claim.

On that, I forcibly agree.

 

[TimCallahan]

Okay, DOC, one last time, What is your response to the following?:

1) When strokes and dementias (such as Alzheimer's) are removed from the recent European study, the percentage of people with mental and emotional illnesses in Europe is comparable to mental illness rates in the U.S. in earlier studies, which also did not include strokes and dementias. Thus, over all irreligious Europe and the comparably religious U.S. have the same rate of mental illness. Do you still maintain the rate of mental illness is higher in Europe due to a decline in religion? I so, why?

2) Church attendance in the U.S. and Canada is comparable. However, Canada's rate of mental illness is less than half that of the U.S. If religion is a factor in lowering rates of mental illness, or, if you prefer, a decline in religion is a factor in raising those rates, why is there such a difference in the mental illness rates in Canada and the U.S.?

If you fail to answer these simple, direct questions, then be damned as a weasel and a troll.

 

[DOC]

DOC has made an argument that mental illness rates are tied to religious decline. When challenging his mechanism of this claim, he asserts that he said "maybe" and "Not all" and therefore acts as though he need to defend the claim. Rational debate doesn't work this way.

In which post did I assert "maybe" and "not all" when someone challenged the mechanism of the claim (whatever that means).

 

[Akhenaten]

In which post did I assert "maybe" and "not all" when someone challenged the mechanism of the claim (whatever that means).

It means this:

Obviously, you never say anything as forceful as "all." You won't even go halfway with most of your posts, but you use weasel words to imply things. Nearly all of your posts contain some variant of "maybe" or "could be" or "possibly," which is why other posters are constantly asking you to clarify your position. State your opinions more forcefully, and be ready to back them up. Don't weasel around some idea, and then when someone calls you on it, go back and say that the person is creating a strawman or attacking the arguer.

 

[DOC]

Okay, DOC, one last time, What is your response to the following?:

1) When strokes and dementias (such as Alzheimer's) are removed from the recent European study, the percentage of people with mental and emotional illnesses in Europe is comparable to mental illness rates in the U.S. in earlier studies, which also did not include strokes and dementias. Thus, over all irreligious Europe and the comparably religious U.S. have the same rate of mental illness. Do you still maintain the rate of mental illness is higher in Europe due to a decline in religion? I so, why?.

If we assume the info you mention above is correct, the bottom line is that the mental illness rates in both areas is very high. The mental illness rates in the US could also be caused to a certain extant by sin but a "different" sin than the Europeans.. The US claims to be more Godly but the US seems to be more materialistic than Europe. The sin of materialism and the love of money (root of all evil) can be the fuel that causes such things as overwork to attain more goods and to keep up with the Jones. Overwork can lead to depression and other mental problems. Also the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors can lead to human suffering. A great example of this is the movie "Roger and Me" by Michael Moore. This movie shows how the policy of profit over all else practically destroyed the community of Flynt Michigan. This action of practically destroying a town can lead to mental problems.

Thus while the US seems to be more godly on the surface (by such things as a higher church attendance) it is actually less godly in certain areas than Europe. But then again Europe is less godly in certain areas, mainly in its growing lack of recognition and indifference to God.

 

[DOC]

It means this:

So when I ask for a post of mine you give someone else's post.

 

[Akhenaten]

Okay, DOC, one last time, What is your response to the following?:

1) When strokes and dementias (such as Alzheimer's) are removed from the recent European study, the percentage of people with mental and emotional illnesses in Europe is comparable to mental illness rates in the U.S. in earlier studies, which also did not include strokes and dementias. Thus, over all irreligious Europe and the comparably religious U.S. have the same rate of mental illness. Do you still maintain the rate of mental illness is higher in Europe due to a decline in religion? I so, why?

If we assume the info you mention above is correct, the bottom line is that the mental illness rates in both areas is very high.

No assumption is necessary, the information is correct and the bottom line is that the figures are comparable.

The mental illness rates in the US could also be caused to a certain extant by sin but a "different" sin than the Europeans..

Only if we pretend that sin is a real thing and allow you to make up your own definitions for it.

And change the topic from the relationship between religiosity and mental illness to the relationship between sin and mental illness.

The US claims to be more Godly but the US seems to be more materialistic than Europe. The sin of materialism and the love of money (root of all evil) can be the fuel that causes such things as overwork to attain more goods and to keep up with the Jones. Overwork can lead to depression and other mental problems. Also the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors can lead to human suffering. A great example of this is the movie "Roger and Me" by Michael Moore. This movie shows how the policy of profit over all else practically destroyed the community of Flynt Michigan. This action of practically destroying a town can lead to mental problems.

Are you hoping to get away with simply calling everything that might contribute to mental illness a sin? I'll bet you get called on it.

Thus while the US seems to be more godly on the surface (by such things as a higher church attendance) it is actually less godly in certain areas than Europe. But then again Europe is less godly in certain areas, mainly in its growing lack of recognition and indifference to God.

You have no idea what is meant by special pleading, do you?


Not only have you completely failed to address the above question, you simply ignored altogether the second question in the same post.


Here's a memory jogger for you:

2) Church attendance in the U.S. and Canada is comparable. However, Canada's rate of mental illness is less than half that of the U.S. If religion is a factor in lowering rates of mental illness, or, if you prefer, a decline in religion is a factor in raising those rates, why is there such a difference in the mental illness rates in Canada and the U.S.?

Want to have another go?

 

[Akhenaten]

In which post did I assert "maybe" and "not all" when someone challenged the mechanism of the claim (whatever that means).

It means this:

Obviously, you never say anything as forceful as "all." You won't even go halfway with most of your posts, but you use weasel words to imply things. Nearly all of your posts contain some variant of "maybe" or "could be" or "possibly," which is why other posters are constantly asking you to clarify your position. State your opinions more forcefully, and be ready to back them up. Don't weasel around some idea, and then when someone calls you on it, go back and say that the person is creating a strawman or attacking the arguer.

So when I ask for a post of mine you give someone else's post.

It answers the question you didn't ask in exactly the way that your own posts never do.

 

[joobz]

In which post did I assert "maybe" and "not all" when someone challenged the mechanism of the claim (whatever that means).

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7568014#post7568014

You claimed that sin can lead to physical illness. That is what we are discussing. When challenged, you resort to wishy washiness, refusing to defend your arguments.

You make allusions to connections, but fail to actually make one.

For instance:

If we assume the info you mention above is correct, the bottom line is that the mental illness rates in both areas is very high. The mental illness rates in the US could also be caused to a certain extant by sin but a "different" sin than the Europeans.. The US claims to be more Godly but the US seems to be more materialistic than Europe. The sin of materialism and the love of money (root of all evil) can be the fuel that causes such things as overwork to attain more goods and to keep up with the Jones. Overwork can lead to depression and other mental problems. Also the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors can lead to human suffering. A great example of this is the movie "Roger and Me" by Michael Moore. This movie shows how the policy of profit over all else practically destroyed the community of Flynt Michigan. This action of practically destroying a town can lead to mental problems.

Thus while the US seems to be more godly on the surface (by such things as a higher church attendance) it is actually less godly in certain areas than Europe. But then again Europe is less godly in certain areas, mainly in its growing lack of recognition and indifference to God.

All of this is simply conjecture. Further all you are doing is calling distasteful policies and labeling them sins.
Further, considering that we know things that aren't sinful* cause physical illness, we can assume your argument defeated.


*Vaginal prolapse is a physical disease.
Vaginal prolapse is most commonly caused by multiple child births.
Does this mean that "Being fruitful and multiplying" is a sin or does it mean that non-sinful actions cause physical diseases as well?

If sinful and nonsinful actions cause physical illness, what does that say regarding your entire argument?

 

[X]

If we assume the info you mention above is correct, the bottom line is that the mental illness rates in both areas is very high. The mental illness rates in the US could also be caused to a certain extant by sin but a "different" sin than the Europeans. The US claims to be more Godly but the US seems to be more materialistic than Europe. The sin of materialism and the love of money (root of all evil) can be the fuel that causes such things as overwork to attain more goods and to keep up with the Jones. Overwork can lead to depression and other mental problems. Also the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors can lead to human suffering. A great example of this is the movie "Roger and Me" by Michael Moore. This movie shows how the policy of profit over all else practically destroyed the community of Flynt Michigan. This action of practically destroying a town can lead to mental problems.

Thus while the US seems to be more godly on the surface (by such things as a higher church attendance) it is actually less godly in certain areas than Europe. But then again Europe is less godly in certain areas, mainly in its growing lack of recognition and indifference to God.

Hmm...
Sun Countess has you pegged perfectly.

Obviously, you never say anything as forceful as "all." You won't even go halfway with most of your posts, but you use weasel words to imply things. Nearly all of your posts contain some variant of "maybe" or "could be" or "possibly," which is why other posters are constantly asking you to clarify your position. State your opinions more forcefully, and be ready to back them up. Don't weasel around some idea, and then when someone calls you on it, go back and say that the person is creating a strawman or attacking the arguer.

Here DOC, let me help you out with your lack-of-huevos problem.
I don't expect you'll accept my rendition. It would require you to make concrete claims that you may have to support...

If the info you mention above is correct, the bottom line is that the mental illness rates in both areas is very high. The mental illness rates in the US is also caused to a certain extant by sin but a "different" sin than the Europeans. The US gives the image of being more Godly but the US is actually more materialistic than Europe. The sin of materialism and the love of money (root of all evil) is the fuel that causes such things as overwork to attain more goods and to keep up with the Jones. Overwork leads lead to depression and other mental problems. Also the sin of valuing corporate profit over human factors leads to human suffering. A great example of this is the movie "Roger and Me" by Michael Moore. This movie shows how the policy of profit over all else practically destroyed the community of Flynt Michigan. This action of practically destroying a town lead to mental problems.

Thus while the US pretends to be more godly on the surface (by such things as a higher church attendance) it is actually less godly in certain areas than Europe. But then again Europe is less godly in certain areas, mainly in its growing lack of recognition and indifference to God.

A final note: Please stop affirming the consequent when playing with your ever-adaptable definition of sin. Surely you learned about that particular fallacy in that logic course you aced?

 

[Mashuna]

If sinful and nonsinful actions cause physical illness, what does that say regarding your entire argument?

Can we just get the thread merged with the 'Natural Disasters could be a punishment from God' thread? Maybe get it renamed, 'Every bad thing that ever happens is probably deserved because you might have been mean to God'?

 

[Leif Roar]

If we assume the info you mention above is correct, the bottom line is that the mental illness rates in both areas is very high.

"Very high" compared to what, exactly? You don't have any baseline rate of mental illness to compare them to, so what makes you think they're at all unusual?