Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[Jack by the hedge]

I asked a NASA/Apollo historian and he confirmed there was a contradiction, and was "at a loss to explain the discrepancy".

I guess you must be tired, having pulled an all-nighter in Delhi time.

I gather then that you haven't asked Reed if there is a contradiction, and intend simply to rely on your own interpretation to claim it.

It seems a pity not to ask the one person who could settle the matter, but I guess you're afraid he could shoot down your pet theory, and that risk "would be simply too great, insane".

 

[Patrick1000]

Ahhhhhhhhhh yes, but there"s the rub

Once again you demonstrate how much you have yet to learn about the space program. It is the hoax believer stance that Apollo leaped full-grown from the mind of Kennedy, and was dumped in NASA's laps the day o (giant cannon, Cavorite, and sun-dew in bottles being not quite real-world capable).

However, as the practicalities of space flight became clearer and clearer, it also became clear that orbit was a better place for observing Earth -- or dropping missiles on it. By the time of Apollo, it was clear to all that the Moon was not in and of itself a worthwhile military goal.


Shorter version: No kidding? One would think there'd never been a Gemini Program, or the Ranger program, or for that matter a Goddard or a Tsiolkovsky. .... Seriously -- you think ANYONE thinks the technologies to get to the Moon started with Apollo?

AHHHHHHHHHH YES, BUT THERE"S THE RUB.

Pre-Kennedy, the US space program was only military in a very real sense. We hadn't sent ol' "easy to see stars from the lunar surface" Shepard up yet. I'll develop the theme as I move forward, but to state it here quickly, I am not claiming anything really at all about Kennedy, only that he happened to be elected so that he was the pitch man. What I mean to develop is Apollo comes from a time when the space program was a military program. You see nomuse, these guys were really planning to put stuff on the moon, really really really planning to do it. Now if they were civilians, real civilians, they would know that could never really happen cuz' whose gonna' give them the money????? But these guys know they are going to get the money. They know it cuz' they're military.

Remember in the Lick Observatory newsletter article when the astronomer and computer specialist Lloyd Robinson said in his Apollo 11 40th Anniversary Interview that the only time in his entire career when $$$$$$$$$ was absolutely no object, the Lick Observatory guys could have whatever they wanted, was when they built the laser system for the Apollo 11 Tranquility Base LRRR targeting? Remember that? The guy has been a high level astronomer for what?, 45 years? Literally he said, that was the only time they got all the money they ever could have wanted/needed.

So the NASA boys planning to go to the moon, planning years before Kennedy, they have to be military, because they ain't toying with the idea, they are planning on really going and really putting something up there, and it sure wasn't 'bout to be no astronaut, no-sir-ree! What good is a crummy astronaut up there when you can put better things on that dark rock to tweak the Ruskies?

 

[Erock]

Most Americans believe Kennedy to have been instrunmental/visionary. My point is, had Nixon won the election, he would have given the speech. We were "going to the moon" regardless of who was president. The plan was hatched outside of the oval office, and hatched presumably by military people.

It will become more evident as details are filled in, but it would seem they knew what they were going to do from the outset, unmanned instrumentation of the moon behind the scenes, public face of Apollo altogether different in that it would pretend to be a series of manned lunar landings.

So the goal was to gain military advantage by placing reflectors on the Moon using unmanned craft and faking Apollo?

Military advantage over the Soviet Union, who, upon seeing the Apollo Moon landings yelled fake in everyone single outlet they could find congratulated the Americans and found nothing wrong.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I am not claiming anything really at all about Kennedy

So all that stuff about "OMG look: NASA already knew about the moon before Kennedy told us it was there!!1!1!one!! Proooooffff!eleventy!!!!" That was just a bit of filler, then.

Remember in the Lick Observatory newsletter article when the astronomer and computer specialist Lloyd Robinson said in his Apollo 11 40th Anniversary Interview that the only time in his entire career when $$$$$$$$$ was absolutely no object, the Lick Observatory guys could have whatever they wanted, was when they built the laser system for the Apollo 11 Tranquility Base LRRR targeting? Remember that? The guy has been a high level astronomer for what?, 45 years? Literally he said, that was the only time they got all the money they ever could have wanted/needed.

Yeah. There's no contradiction and no smoking gun there. Just for once, instead of having to plead and scrape for every cent to do the scientific research they wanted, they were contracted to do a job for someone else with a well-funded programme and a requirement to do the job reliably and on time. Why are you surprised?

 

[Patrick1000]

Guess What!!!?????

I just stumbled across something totally interesting!!!

I have a copy of the LM Familiarization Manual. It was published in 1964, 5 years before Neil and Buzz got "Lost".

Guess what it says on page 1-5 with regard to launch preparations from the lunar surface?????? It says this;

"The LEM location relative to the position of the lunar orbiting Command/Service modules is determined with rendezvous radar."

That's a quote my friends.

Guess what that means?

Even back in 1964 they knew a way to "find" the LEM no matter where it was on the surface of the moon, and as a matter of fact, it would appear a reverse rendezvous radar solution was no big deal, just standard operating proceedure per the LEM manual written in 1964.

Wonder why they didn't turn that radar on long before launch time to find the Eagle right away if they could not find it by other means? It is not as though Mike Collins with his sextant didn't want to know where to look, like exactly where to look. It wasn't like anyonne was worried about those guys with groups of geologists looking for them on maps or anything. It wasn't as though this rendezvous radar thing wasn't recognized and being planned on being used to begin with or anything.

Wonder why they just left the dumb bird up there LOST!!!!!! until the last minute?????? After all, they wrote this manual in 1964.

 

[Patrick1000]

WOW!!!!!

WOW!!!!! These guys are totally busted!

 

[abaddon]

WOW!!!!! These guys are totally busted!

No, you have been busted so many times in this thread alone that it is embarrassing, let alone the number of times you have been busted under your various aliases on Baut and AH.

Do you not realise people are laughing at you?

 

[Patrick1000]

Pete Williams of DYNAMICS in on the fraud??????

Pete Williams of DYNAMICS in on the fraud??????

So at the time of the confusion as to the Eagle's location, it is the DYNAMICS
computer controller Pete Williams that makes the suggestion to use the rendezvous radar.

As we have come to know, these fraud "choke points", where the script can only really go one way despite the appearance of choices, are points where we may be able to identify "participants". As such, Williams here, the DYNAMICS computer controller, he may well be someone that knows our boys to be in a place other than where they are pretending to be.

 

[abaddon]

Pete Williams of DYNAMICS in on the fraud??????

So at the time of the confusion as to the Eagle's location, it is the DYNAMICS
computer controller Pete Williams that makes the suggestion to use the rendezvous radar.

As we have come to know, these fraud "choke points" where the script can only really go one way despite the appearance of choices are points where we may be able to identify "participants". As such, Williams here the DYNAMICS computer controller, he may well be someone that knows our boys to be in a place other than where they are pretending to be.

3:45 am in Delhi, Patrick.

No one believes you.

 

[Patrick1000]

Are they????

No, you have been busted so many times in this thread alone that it is embarrassing, let alone the number of times you have been busted under your various aliases on Baut and AH.

Do you not realise people are laughing at you?

Are they??? Did you read that abaddon, what I just found out about the rendezvous radar solution? How it was a way to always find the LMs, and as a matter of fact, using it was standard operating proceedure before launch. Is that what they are laughing at me about? That point there demonstrating again that the Apollo 11 Mission was fraudulent? Do you have a copy of the 1964 LM Familiarization Manual abaddon? It is really funny like a comic book! Especially the part that I quoted above.

All of the astronauts have to study this manual very hard and that includes the part I quoted you know. You should study it too so as to see how Neil scammed your rump!

 

[abaddon]

Are they???

Yup, they aare. They all are. You are a joke.

did you read that abaddon, what i just foud out about the rendezvous radar solution?

Yup, you don't understand it at all. That is plain to see.

how it was a way to always find the LMs and as a matter of fact using it was standard operating proceedure before launch.

Once again, you flip-flop and now claim it was easy to find the LM after pages and pages of claiming it was "lost". Comedy gold.

is that what they are laughing at me about? that point there demonstrating again that the Apollo 11 Mission was fraudulent.

Laughing at your blatant lies, your misrepresentation of the facts, your ignorance, your avoidance of the physical evidence, your invention of plots, motivations and imaginary military space programs, your obvious invention of your own back story, your invention of your qualifications, your lies about your age and location, your hilarious misunderstanding of coordinate systems, yes laughing at you. In your face.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

3:45 am in Delhi, Patrick.

I think you got am and pm mixed up there. It's afternoon in Delhi.

Mind you, Patrick has been posting since 04.45am Delhi time.

 

[abaddon]

I think you got am and pm mixed up there. It's afternoon in Delhi.

Mind you, Patrick has been posting since 04.45am Delhi time.

I stand corrected.

That's what honest people do, Patrick. You make a mistake, then you fess up to it.

You know, like an adult.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Are they???

Yes. Yes, we are laughing at you.

Did you read that abaddon, what I just found out about the rendezvous radar solution?

You mean the bit about how it was intended that the rendezvous radar would be used as part of the launch preparations from the lunar surface?

And that's exactly what they said they did.

Therefore you assume they didn't.

Yeah, that kind of thing is why we're laughing at you.

 

[Patrick1000]

No flip flop abaddon, this is so great! Very Profound!

Yup, they aare. They all are. You are a joke.



Yup, you don't understand it at all. That is plain to see.



Once again, you flip-flop and now claim it was easy to find the LM after pages and pages of claiming it was "lost". Comedy gold.



Laughing at your blatant lies, your misrepresentation of the facts, your ignorance, your avoidance of the physical evidence, your invention of plots, motivations and imaginary military space programs, your obvious invention of your own back story, your invention of your qualifications, your lies about your age and location, your hilarious misunderstanding of coordinate systems, yes laughing at you. In your face.

No flip flop abaddon, this is so great!

So abaddon, Neil sure must have studied that manual pretty dang hard. Why was it he never thought to turn the rendezvous radar on before, you know, to "find" himself.

The "lost" as I have pointed out again and agian is a "pretended lost". In the first place, they are not on the moon to begin with. But that aside, they are "found" at the very time their finding would be expected in this phony ruse, at the time of lift off. In this way, no incriminating evidence can be generated.

As pointed out previously, were they really on the moon, they could voluntarily , or even be "forced" to video the argon laser from Mcdonald Observatory in El Paso, just as Surveyor VII videoed the argon lasers from Table Mountain and Kitt Peak in 1968. So they are "lost" until off the moon, or at least just about to get off the moon. Otherwise, if their coordinates are known, they can be targeted with a laser, forced to take its picture.

No abaddon, this here is what your friend Southwind17 likes to call HARD EVIDENCE. A manual that Armstrong surely would have read were any of his true, referencing how the LM's position could/would/should be determined under any circumstances really, and Neil himself claimed he didn't know where he was, even in cislunar space on day 6-7, as in the Voice Transcripted conversation with McCandless that I am as you know so fond of referencing. As you'll recall, in that converstaion with McCandless, Neil was not aware of where he had been, at least not in very precise terms. Why did he not just turn on the rendezvous radar abaddon? Do it himself?

Remember abaddon how the CapCom said it was the $64,000 question, the fact no one knew the landing site coordinates even a day after the EVA? Remember that? Bet that manual "cost" my mom and the other American tax payers that foot the bill for this elaborate ruse more than $64,000.

 

[nomuse]

AHHHHHHHHHH YES, BUT THERE"S THE RUB.

Pre-Kennedy, the US space program was only military in a very real sense. We hadn't sent ol' "easy to see stars from the lunar surface" Shepard up yet. I'll develop the theme as I move forward, but to state it here quickly, I am not claiming anything really at all about Kennedy, only that he happened to be elected so that he was the pitch man. What I mean to develop is Apollo comes from a time when the space program was a military program.

Claimed (by you) but not shown. It doesn't become real just because you repeat it.

You see nomuse, these guys were really planning to put stuff on the moon, really really really planning to do it. Now if they were civilians, real civilians, they would know that could never really happen cuz' whose gonna' give them the money????? But these guys know they are going to get the money. They know it cuz' they're military.

No, this is exactly what NASA does. Has done since it existed. What every agency does, in fact. They draw up plans. They make proposals. They work out contingencies.

Look at the work that was done in the late 60's through the early 80's for lunar colonies, space habitats, even generation ships. Not many ever reached the point of serious proposal, but even drafting a plan for an L5 colony that would never possibly get funded will identify weaknesses in general knowledge, directions for possible (more plausible) future projects, will inspire others, etc., etc.

Von Braun began drafting up ideas to fly to the Moon when he was a rocketeer for a losing army that wasn't going to do ANYTHING that didn't put ordinance on target.

You can go today to NASA (or to any similar agency) and you will find the same list of ideas and proposals, ranging all the way from pie-in-the-sky dreams to "I'm bringing this up at the next budget talk."

Remember in the Lick Observatory newsletter article when the astronomer and computer specialist Lloyd Robinson said in his Apollo 11 40th Anniversary Interview that the only time in his entire career when $$$$$$$$$ was absolutely no object, the Lick Observatory guys could have whatever they wanted, was when they built the laser system for the Apollo 11 Tranquility Base LRRR targeting? Remember that? The guy has been a high level astronomer for what?, 45 years? Literally he said, that was the only time they got all the money they ever could have wanted/needed.

No, I don't. And neither do you. What we remember is the words a reporter for the UC Santa Cruz student paper chose to put in, based on memory and notes, from a man who was also working from memory and notes, which were then edited for brevity and clarity by several other people with access to neither the gentleman or the notes.

Do you really not understand the difference between an article and a paper? And you claim to be a working physician?

So the NASA boys planning to go to the moon, planning years before Kennedy, they have to be military, because they ain't toying with the idea, they are planning on really going and really putting something up there, and it sure wasn't 'bout to be no astronaut, no-sir-ree! What good is a crummy astronaut up there when you can put better things on that dark rock to tweak the Ruskies?

Nope. Doesn't follow. Dreaming is not a sole prerogative of the combat arms.

 

[SUSpilot]

"Patrick": You didn't respond to my point that Reed used the radar data to figure out the relationship between the LM and CSM. As has Bernard pointed out by several of us, that is a remarkably elegant solution.

My questions are simple enough. And I think you understood them because you did respond to at least a couple of them. Suffice to say, I have come to the conclusion that you have reverse-engineered an entire military program of dubious, at best, value hinging on the premise that we couldn't have gone to the Moon because we didn't have the technology. Why you feel that way is entirely up to you. To me, though, you remind me of either Captain Queeg during the trial in The Caine Mutiny or of Cutie in Asimov's "Reason" (as collected in I Robot). I favor the latter, because, like Cutie, you start with what is to you, self-evident: those dinosaurs in the '50's and '60's couldn't have possibly have done it. I include the former, because some of the sarcasm in your responses to reasoned explanations really is indicative to me that being questioned about your world-view makes you angry.

I suppose that if we were having similar discussions 10 years from now, you'd be arguing that routine transatlantic supersonic passenger service never occurred during the seventies and eighties. After all, we can't do it today, the fuel expenses would have been outlandish, radio and navigation services weren't all that sophisticated, blah, blah blah. Had to have been a hoax to cover the sonic booms of the SR71. See, I can do it, too.

Trouble is, we did do it. We had an SST (although the economics were horrible and the large subsonic transport is, for now, a better solution). And we went to the Moon. Speaking for myself, I'm irritated that my generation held the prize, had worked so hard to achieve it, and then walked away. Not that I think we would have had a Kubrickian world by 2001 if we hadn't - that would have been a bit optimistic - but we would be better fulfilling our destiny (or innate nature, take your pick) as explorers and curious creatures if we hadn't. And I'm just as annoyed with the current generation because it seems to lack the imagination to try again.

To Jack By The Hedge's point about your sense of risk aversion: read Alone! by Admiral Richard Byrd. You think Apollo was risky?

 

[nomuse]

I just stumbled across something totally interesting!!!

I have a copy of the LM Familiarization Manual. It was published in 1964, 5 years before Neil and Buzz got "Lost".

Guess what it says on page 1-5 with regard to launch preparations from the lunar surface?????? It says this;

"The LEM location relative to the position of the lunar orbiting Command/Service modules is determined with rendezvous radar."

That's a quote my friends.

Guess what that means?

Even back in 1964 they knew a way to "find" the LEM no matter where it was on the surface of the moon, and as a matter of fact, it would appear a reverse rendezvous radar solution was no big deal, just standard operating proceedure per the LEM manual written in 1964.

Wonder why they didn't turn that radar on long before launch time to find the Eagle right away if they could not find it by other means? It is not as though Mike Collins with his sextant didn't want to know where to look, like exactly where to look. It wasn't like anyonne was worried about those guys with groups of geologists looking for them on maps or anything. It wasn't as though this rendezvous radar thing wasn't recognized and being planned on being used to begin with or anything.

Wonder why they just left the dumb bird up there LOST!!!!!! until the last minute?????? After all, they wrote this manual in 1964.

Yes, that's what we've been saying. The LM can find the C/SM. This isn't the same thing as knowing where either of them are in reference to some arbitrary third point (aka Lick Observatory).

 

[Patrick1000]

Yes it is

Yes, that's what we've been saying. The LM can find the C/SM. This isn't the same thing as knowing where either of them are in reference to some arbitrary third point (aka Lick Observatory).

Yes it is! The LM landing site coordinates were determined with the rendezvous radar per the official narrative, within 600-1200 feet depending on what one reads and wants to believe. But it is part of the official story. The Eagle's launch coordinates for Colins were J.5/7.7 and those were determined primarily by the rendezvous radar.

 

[abaddon]

The Eagle's launch coordinates for Colins were J.5/7.7 and those were determined primarily by the rendezvous radar.

Is that RA and Dec? or miles? or kilometers? or uncertified banana skins?

You have no clue, do you?