Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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The American judicial appeals system is a mess. It seems vertially impossible to get an appeal approved. This needs to change. Troy Davis deserved to have his case looked at again.

I have grown to appreciate the Italian system's automatic appeal. They have problems, obviously, but no one is being put to death and everyone gets an appeal. If a wrongful conviction happens in the USA it is likely that person will never get an appeal or it will take away years of their lives.

There's always room for improvement. But honestly, no one gets executed with out an appeal, and almost certainly many appeals, which I believe was the situation with Troy Davis.

This so-called "automatic appeal" in Italy is in practice not that different from what happens in the US.
 
[....] she is right about Mumia. I can't help but think of the fable of the boy who cried wolf in regards to Knox. Too many had people cried " wolf" in other cases without just cause, so many people (like me) didn't give too much credit to the innocenti claim at first.


That's interesting. I've come across so many cases where the cries of "wolf" were all too justified, that I initially imagined Mumia was going to be another one. Well, of course it wasn't.

I don't know how things are in the USA, but in Britain (mainly England) I can reel off a dozen or more erroneous murder convictions without stopping to think. Sion Jenkins, Barry George, Sally Clark, Angela Cannings, Donna Anthony, Stefan Kizsko, Paul Esslemont, the Guildford Four, the Maguire Seven, the Birmingham Six, David Asbury. All these were finally reversed on appeal. And Michael Stone and Abdelbaset al-Megrahi have not (so far) had their convictions overturned, but clearly should not have been convicted on the evidence before the courts.

So I have to say I tend to start from a position where I'm inclined to give quite a lot of credence to suggestions of a wrongful conviction. Which doesn't mean to say that all such claims stack up, of course.

Rolfe.
 
If I saw this jar of vaseline on a desk (not the night stand) next to a hairbrush and wadded tissues I would assume it was used to remove makeup or she had a cold and used it to relieve irritated skin around her nostrils.
 

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I can't help writing one thing, though, as I'm watching yesterday's "Porta a Porta" TV show video playback.
They played Amanda's last statement before the first degree verdict.
Listening to it again I find it strange and supporting my theory (that she was there but did not murder) the fact that her denial is somewhat "technical" on this point. She almost always says that she (or they with Raffaele) did not murder, instead of saying that they were not in the cottage at all, that night.

I don't think that listening for nuances in the suspects statement that might reveal the real truth and thereby reading between the lines is a very good method. The risk that you hear what you want to hear is too great and you must add to that that if you're correct that he/she is avoiding certain ways of representing his/her truth, it might not be for the reason you assume.

You are falling into the same trap as the police did in this case and that has haunted this witch trial, IMO. Knox and Sollecito cannot act right, no matter what they do. If they're calm, they're too calm, and if they're upset, they're too upset.

Like others, I still think that the greatest obstacle to your theory is that Knox or Sollecito would have come forward by now and told the truth, if the extent of their involvement was to a lesser degree.

I have tried to think of a possible scenario where Knox was present while Guede murdered Kercher or where Knox and Sollecito find Kercher's dead body after the murder and decide "let's pretend we haven't seen this, let's not get involved and let the police discover this instead." Or maybe a theory in which Knox and Sollecito made it possible for Guede to commit the crime, for example giving him the key to the cottage, for some reason. But I have never been able to make this scenario work. If they really were involved, which I find highly unlikely, I think it's only possible if they were involved in the actual killing.
 
I have not seen the interview of the Kerchers on Porta a Porta but have read this from Meredith's mother:

http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/cronac...-prove-che-hanno-inchiodato-i-colpevoli.shtml

Thanks. I have a feeling Google is not being very accurate with these comments. The basic thing that I get is her questions about what happened to the evidence in the first trial that is now no longer valid, and her statement that she will accept what the court decides. It seems to me that she is saying she does not know who killed her daughter and she leaves that to the court to decide. She wants justice for her daughter.

This seems to be a bit different from Mr Kercher's previously stated stance. Maybe someone can give this a decent translation (or has the original English version-I assume it was translated into Italian).
 
Interesting quote from Patrick's lawyer, translation from a poster at PMF:



It sounds like an argument that the Knox girl was a suspect well before she was named a suspect and should have been appointed a lawyer. Maybe the defense team should allow Patrick's lawyer to make this argument for them.

How does she continue to accuse Patrick by exercising the right to silence? Is he ignoring her hand written statement, "who is the real murderer"? The scream is pretty much a joke, "surely you heard a scream, OK I heard a scream". And how did she cover for Rudy and if she was innocent how would she know he was the killer? Did she stage a break in that if the cops had an ounce of sense would have pointed straight to him? How come she magically cleaned up evidence of their presence but left the evidence that Rudy did it?

The argument makes no sense. Amanda broke under the pressure and admitted to a version of events that the cops just knew to be true. The cops were wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

Was this statement released recently? What's the significance of this for Amanda's legal situation?
At the heart of this case is the false confession. The concurrent hearing of the criminal and civil proceedings looks like it has been deliberately designed by the prosecution to allow statements disallowed by the Supreme Court in the criminal cases, to be heard in the context of the civil case, by the same judge and 'jury'. This is a cynical maipulation of the unsophisticated tendency (proved in studies of juries) of people to be inordinately swayed by confessions, and to find guilty even those whose confessions have been shown to be coerced. Anyone party to it (including Lumumba, who knows better than anyone, except Amanda and Raffaelle, how disasterous the behaviour of ILE was in this case)
If I were the defense, I'd get him back up on the stand and ask him point blank how the police treated him from his arrest until his release. At least gain the moral victory of exposing him as a coward and a liar. Or, maybe to give him the opportunity to be brave, tell the truth, and place the blame for what happened to him where it belongs, even if where it belongs is at the feet of a very powerful group of people, and even if that would mean hardship for him.
The whole thing about the scream is a joke, isn't it? Can anyone tell me what time Nara supposed she heard the scream? Doesn't the timing tie in with the later 11.40 ToD timeframe (that we all know is nonsense)?
The idea that inside knowledge was how Amanda 'knew about the scream' is surely nonsense of the highest order. Rose, you're right, there's the 'imagine this' / hypothetical / suggestive element, but it's also fairly easy to suppose that someone's who's being violently assaulted might scream. Not really a stretch.
 
Thanks. I have a feeling Google is not being very accurate with these comments. The basic thing that I get is her questions about what happened to the evidence in the first trial that is now no longer valid, and her statement that she will accept what the court decides. It seems to me that she is saying she does not know who killed her daughter and she leaves that to the court to decide. She wants justice for her daughter.

This seems to be a bit different from Mr Kercher's previously stated stance. Maybe someone can give this a decent translation (or has the original English version-I assume it was translated into Italian).

I sometimes get the feeling that the mother and father do not necessarily see this case in the same light. John Kercher is fixed in his views and has unflinching faith in what happened in the Massei court. I'm not sure that that's necessarily the case with Kercher's mother. If she's now saying that she would accept even an innocent verdict, then I think that supports this view--I don't think John Kercher would ever be able to bring himself to say that.
 
The basic thing that I get is her questions about what happened to the evidence in the first trial that is now no longer valid

They keep saying this. What's so difficult to understand here? The"evidence" in the first case was bogus. Stefanoni and the cops screwed up, cheated and lied. What she should be asking is why none of this misconduct was detected the first time around.
 
They keep saying this. What's so difficult to understand here? The"evidence" in the first case was bogus. Stefanoni and the cops screwed up, cheated and lied. What she should be asking is why none of this misconduct was detected the first time around.

Andrea Vogt seems to have focused on this and not the other statements made by Mrs Kercher.

http://twitter.com/#!/andreavogt
 
Thanks. I have a feeling Google is not being very accurate with these comments. The basic thing that I get is her questions about what happened to the evidence in the first trial that is now no longer valid, and her statement that she will accept what the court decides. It seems to me that she is saying she does not know who killed her daughter and she leaves that to the court to decide. She wants justice for her daughter.

This seems to be a bit different from Mr Kercher's previously stated stance. Maybe someone can give this a decent translation (or has the original English version-I assume it was translated into Italian).
One thing that Arline Kercher says, which I disagree with, is the following: "Chi l’ha uccisa la conosceva bene, aveva la sua fiducia ma è stata tradita. Per me è inconcepibile tutto questo". Translated this means: "Whoever killed her, knew her well, and was trusted by her but she was betrayed. All of this is inconceivable, to me".
 
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The Kerchers confusion, imo, is confirmation of their growing objectivity.

They have been away from the Perugia chaos and no longer surrounded by the Prosecution daily. This absence allows objectivity to grow.

I wonder what they think of the ToD?

The ToD, the scenario of the crime happening before 10:30 or after 11:30, is seeming more and more the determining point for acquittal or confirming the sentence.

this ToD is the line in the dirt in some ways.
 
One thing that Arline Kercher says, which I disagree with, is the following: "Chi l’ha uccisa la conosceva bene, aveva la sua fiducia ma è stata tradita. Per me è inconcepibile tutto questo". Translated this means: "Whoever killed her, knew her well, and was trusted by her but she was betrayed. All of this is inconceivable, to me".

Good point. The fact that it is inconceivable to her should suggest something else to consider, imo.
 
Hmm. I would say that it's more liking watching a car accident. One that is so serious that you wonder whether the driver will turn out to be brain dead.

Yup . . . she is.

I agree - I find PMF to be a 'guilty pleasure' (sic) - a kind of morbid curiosity makes me go back and check them out from time to time.

Sometimes, though, my toes clench the floor as I read; "I come from a place, inside me, that cries out for justice. .. ".
 
I think this is relevant seeing how Ann Coulter wrote a timely article about Amanda Knox. Now she is writing about Troy Davis, who is innocent: http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2011-09-21.html. She tweets:
[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/MQ0gq.png[/qimg]

Ann Coulter, wrong about everything.

Coulter's function is to discredit conservatism. Along with Limbaugh, O'Really et al, she would be better described as a 'pseudo-conservative', along with the war-mongering so-called 'neo-cons' they adore and suck up to.
 
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I'm sure that ToD is probably one of the most difficult aspects of the case for the Kerchers to focus on.

I agree with the up-thread comment about the interrogation night. It is the key to the case. If Hellman and the other judges don't recognize what happened that night and believe Amanda made up the story about Patrick on her own they will convict her of something.

If they recognize the pre-conceived agenda that the police had that night and the resulting false "confession", they will acquit and send her home.

There just isn't evidence that convicts. Even the PGP can't point to direct circumstantial evidence to the crime, they have been reduced to all the lies (which now seems to include writing that she stayed to help when in fact - drum roll - the police had told her to stay ) and most of those are centered around the interrogation night and diary entries.

May justice be blind and not influenced by emotion.
 
I can't help writing one thing, though, as I'm watching yesterday's "Porta a Porta" TV show video playback.
They played Amanda's last statement before the first degree verdict.
Listening to it again I find it strange and supporting my theory (that she was there but did not murder) the fact that her denial is somewhat "technical" on this point. She almost always says that she (or they with Raffaele) did not murder, instead of saying that they were not in the cottage at all, that night.


Bolint, has it not sunk into your brain just what an internalized false memory is? Of course you will never really look into the research on memory because you know that this is a trap to trick you into accepting what might have happened to Amanda during the November 5/6 interrogations.

Amanda has a memory of being at the cottage when Meredith was murdered by Patrick. She can reason that this memory is false but she can never erase it. She told us in the note written the next morning how this memory was created. But you choose to believe that Amanda made up that story about Patrick on the fly while being questioned by a room full of interrogators feeding her tea and cakes but then she is incapable of telling a simple lie in court in a prepared statement. Your powers of observation and logic are truly boggling.
 
The judge/judges.

The pro-guilt side seems to think that Massei gets it right and all the judges have agreed on this and that so they must be right. They tend to ignore obvious problems with Massei's reasoning and trust that what Massei says is correct. Reading some of the testimony I obtained, it is quite obvious he did not give the defense experts any credibility on anything, choosing to trust Stefanoni and Rinaldi on some conclusions that were not supported by common sense. Massei's dismissal of the defense expert on the staged break in and his untested theory on this is very strange. His acceptance of the witness testimony and his reasoning behind that is completely irrational.


While I agree with every point you made in this excellent post, I wanted to highlight this one in particular: I think it is a very important issue - not just in this case, but in criminal justice in particular.

It's long been known - although for obvious reasons it's virtually impossible to prove or even test - that judges (and juries) tend to have a greater or lesser disposition to favour prosecutors and prosecution experts over defence lawyers and defence experts. And there's a very simple and obvious reason for this. Judges (and juries) have an abiding tendency to believe that prosecutors and their expert witnesses are motivated by nothing more than seeking the truth, whereas conversely there is a level of belief that defence lawyers and witnesses are more likely to stretch (or even break) the truth in order to defend their client.

I strongly suspect that this tendency is even more pronounced in countries such as Italy, which have moved uneasily from the inquisitorial system to the adversarial system. I think that as a result there may be a strong vestigial belief among Italian criminal judges that if there is a dispute over interpretation of evidence between the prosecution and defence, the prosecution is more likely to be right. And I think that this is pretty much behind many of the bizarre and utterly illogical rulings in Massei's court.

It seems that while such attitudes very likely still persist in courts in countries such as the US and UK, judges in such countries are now far more aware of the real truth: prosecutors are motivated by far more than "finding the truth". After charges have been brought, prosecutors are actually motivated far more by winning the case - and thus a) meeting conviction targets, b) validating their judgement/competence in bringing charges, c) very possibly qualifying for personal/group remuneration, and/or enhancing promotional prospects. And prosecution experts are - if anything - actually much more likely to "tailor" their opinions to meet the prosecution's case. This is because prosecutors have the facility to place an awful lot of lucrative work to expert witnesses, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that prosecutors are far more likely to re-employ those witnesses that effectively support prosecution cases.

Therefore, while I believe that judges in many countries have long-since adjusted their blind confidence in prosecutors and their experts (through the experience and knowledge that prosecutors have just as much motivation to win at any costs as the defence teams do), I think it's highly likely that there's a certain reactionary section of the Italian judiciary that still naively and idealistically believe that prosecutors (and their experts) still do no more than seek the truth, wherever that might lead them. I think that in Italy this is probably caused by a combination of the unwieldy transition from inquisitorial to adversarial justice, plus quite possibly the post-fascism insularity of the Italian judiciary.

I think that Massei demonstrated in the first trial that he was clearly of the prevailing view that if defence lawyers or defence witnesses challenged the prosecution case, it was more likely than not (in the absence of any clear evidence to the contrary) that the prosecution were the "truthful" party and that the defence were simply trying to challenge for nefarious, unjustifiable or incorrect reasons. I think (and hope) that Hellmann has a more objective and balanced way of approaching disputes between prosecution and defence: he's certainly amply demonstrated this so far with his approach to the DNA evidence and the recall of Curatolo.
 
I think this is relevant seeing how Ann Coulter wrote a timely article about Amanda Knox. Now she is writing about Troy Davis, who is innocent: http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2011-09-21.html. She tweets:
[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/MQ0gq.png[/qimg]

Ann Coulter, wrong about everything.



Uggggghh. What a disgusting woman. Not only is she a rabid "hang 'em, flog 'em, gas 'em" law-and-order specimen, she's also a nasty self-promoter who deliberately creates outrage and volatility as a means to courting publicity and attention.

The very fact that so many pro-guilt commentators chose to applaud her dreadful piece on Knox, simply because it had an overtly pro-guilt bent, also speaks volumes about what's going on in the pro-guilt camp: "Overlook the source, so long as it supports our position."
 
Uggggghh. What a disgusting woman. Not only is she a rabid "hang 'em, flog 'em, gas 'em" law-and-order specimen, she's also a nasty self-promoter who deliberately creates outrage and volatility as a means to courting publicity and attention.

Are you describing a moderator? ;)
 
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