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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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Here are excerpts from the ALSJ regarding the coordinates given to Mike Collins. I won't bother with formatting, but the times should be handy for further research:

Estimated LM Sites

104:20:28 Duke: Roger, Mike. We got an update on the lat(itude)/longitude for the LM, if you're ready to copy. Over.
104:20:36 Collins: Go ahead. Go ahead.
104:20:42 Duke: Roger. Columbia, it's plus 7 - correction - plus 0.799 for the Lat, plus 11.730 for the longitude-over-two. Over.
[The difference between 23.46 degrees (2 x 11.730) and 23.433 degrees is 0.023 degrees or 0.6 kilometers on the ground. The difference in latitude corresponds to 2.8 kilometers on the surface. With the actual LM location at map coordinates J.65/7.52, the latitude/longitude Charlie has just given to Mike correspond to map coordinates of M.5/8.0. See the discussion following 104:42:48.]

104:42:48 Collins: Houston, Columbia. I say again, I could not see him. Auto optics pointed at a spot very close to the coordinates which you gave me, so I picked a tiny crater in that area and marked on it so I will be able to have repeatable data, but I was unable to see him.
104:42:50 Duke: Roger. Copy.
[Long Comm Break]
[At 104:20:42, Charlie gave Mike estimated latitude and longitude for the LM corresponding to map coordinates M.5/8.0. Near that location, Mike drew a small circle in pencil with an arrow pointing to it. There is a very small crater at the center of the circle and this may be the 'tiny crater' Mike refers to here. Alternatively, the circle may be associated with the first and last of three sextant locations Mike seems to have tried during the pass over the landing site at approximately 108:35: M.8/8.2, P.2/6.3, and M.7/8.0. As indicated in Figure 5-14 in the Apollo 11 Mission Report, the sextant field-of view corresponds to a circle on the ground 3.2 km in diameter, so the differences between M.5/8.0, M.8/8.2, and M.7/8.0 are inconsequential. I am inclined to think that Mike circled the 'tiny crater' during the pass just completed.]
[Aldrin, from the 1969 Technical Debrief - "All during this time, we could tell that Mike was kept busy each pass, doing P22s trying to find where we were."]

105:19:49 Garriott: Columbia, Houston. I have a P22 update for you.
105:19:57 Collins: Columbia. Go ahead.
105:19:59 Garriott: Columbia, Houston. Your P22 AUTO - AUTO optics landmark ID on LM. T1, 106 plus 30 plus 31; T2, 106 plus 35 plus 41, 2 nautical miles south. Your TCA, 106 plus 37 plus 16. Shaft angle 357.9 and trunnion angle 44.3. Over.

106:11:49 McCandless: Columbia, this is Houston. We request that you perform another P22. We'd like you to let the Auto optics take care of the tracking and devote your energies to trying to pick out the LM (visually) on the lunar surface. If you can find the LM, of course. We're looking for marks on it; but tracking of geographical features doesn't do us all that much good. Over.
106:12:18 Collins: Okay. Fine. I'll do it.
[Owen Garriott gave Mike the Auto Optics settings at 105:19:59.]
[Armstrong - "There were a couple of reasons for trying to find the LM on the surface. I would say, first, they wanted to find out if they could see it from the Command Module. Second, they wanted to try to help in establishing its position. A lot of people were interested in where we landed, particularly those people who were involved in the descent guidance trajectory controls. After all, in later flights, we were going to try to go to specific spots on the surface and we needed to get all the information we could regarding methods that might help precision. However, in this transcript one doesn't get a feeling of concern. Certainly, it didn't affect what we did very much. Nor did people on the ground think that this was a disastrous occurrence. But, the fact was, they didn't know exactly where we were and they did want to know if they could."]
[Aldrin - "Well, I guess it's conceivable that it could affect the ability to rendezvous. But, you know that, once you get lifted off, you're going to approach the general vicinity (of the CSM). And, as soon as you start getting (rendezvous radar) data, then that narrows down. Unless you're so far off that you never acquire him."]
[Armstrong - "It's probably worth mentioning that the perturbations by the mascons was still of concern. They were trying to reduce the error from these uncertainties to the point that we could have increasing confidence about going to a particular point on the surface."]
[Mascons, or "mass concentrations" are local variations in the lunar crustal density which produces irregularities in the lunar gravitational field which, in turn, perturb spacecraft orbits. Mascons are generally associated with the mare and were discovered when it was noticed that the orbits of the Lunar Orbiter spacecraft varied in what were, at first, unpredictable ways. By the time of Apollo 11, experts were beginning to get a handle on orbital perturbations in the equatorial belt. However, outside that belt, there was too little data to build accurate models and, when it came time to fly Apollos 15 and 17, the two missions that would land well away from the equator, perturbation of the orbits of those two Command Modules could not be predicted with any confidence.]

106:36:16 Collins: Houston, Columbia. I'm coming up on my time for the first pass when I may be able to see the LM. Do you have any topographical cues that might help me out here? Auto optics is tracking between two craters. One of them, as the LM sees it, would be long at 11 o'clock. The other would be short and behind him at 5 o'clock. (Pause) These are great big old craters (or) depressions.
106:36:44 McCandless: Stand by. (Long Pause) Columbia, this is Houston. The best we can do on topo features is to advise you to look to the west of the irregularly shaped crater, and then work on down to the southwest of it. Over. (Pause) Columbia, Houston. Another possibility is the southern rim of the southern of the two old-looking craters. Over.
[Unlike later Command Module Pilots, Mike is not attempting to make any formal geologic observations from orbit - and for good reason, as Neil explained during the 1991 mission review.]
[Armstrong - "I think Mike's view - and I share it - was that his responsibility was to prove single-man operation of the Command-and-Service Module - a very complex piece of machinery - for the first time, for an extended duration, and in conjunction with a spacecraft on the ground. He needed to demonstrate communications procedures and many other things. It was a quite appropriate approach to this flight; and it was a full-time job."]
[Comm Break]
[Figure 5-14 in the Apollo 11 Mission Report shows the locations given to Mike in his attempts to find the LM. Each of the small squares is 1 kilometer on a side and the circles, which represent the approximate sextant field-of-view, are each about 3.2 km (2 miles) in diameter. For this second pass since the landing, Houston has Mike looking in an area about f2.5 north of the first area he examined. Circle 2 is centered at about N.5/7.5 but, as indicated in the transcript and commentary at 106:43:08, the area he examined is shown by the elipse centered at about M.8/6.9 that he drew on the flown copy of LAM-2.]
106:38:42 Collins: Roger, Houston. Columbia. No joy. I kept my eyes glued to the sextant that time hoping I'd get a flash of specular light off the LM, but I wasn't able to see any in my scan areas that you suggested.
106:38:56 McCandless: Roger. On that southern of the old craters, there's a small bright crater on the southern rim. One plot would put him slightly to the west of that small bright crater, about 500 to 1000 feet. Do you see anything down there? Over.
106:39:19 Collins: It's gone past now, Bruce, but I scanned that area that you are talking about very closely, and no, I did not see anything.

106:43:00 Collins: Houston, Columbia.
106:43:02 McCandless: Go ahead, Columbia.
106:43:08 Collins: One of the craters I was talking about is located exactly at Mike 6.7 (on LAM-2).
[This crater is in the southwestern part of the hand-drawn ellipse.]
106:43:19 McCandless: Roger. We found that one.
106:43:21 Collins: The other one is located at 7...(Listens) The other one is located at 7.2, two-thirds of the way from Mike to Nan.
[This crater is in the northeastern part of the hand-drawn ellipse.]
106:43:36 McCandless: Roger. We believe you were looking a little too far to the west and south. Over. (Long Pause)
106:44:03 Collins: Roger. Understand. I was looking where auto optics was tracking, on the average; and (I) understand that it should have been more to the north and more to the west; actually a tiny bit outside the circle, huh?
106:44:17 McCandless: More to the north and a little more to the east. The feature that I was describing to you - the small bright crater on the rim of the large, fairly old crater - would be about Mike 0.8 and 8.2. Over.
[This crater about 200 meters east of the 'tiny crater' Mike circled at M.7/8.0.]
106:44:40 Collins: Well, just give me your best estimate as to his location in this coordinate system, and I'll plot it on my map and go from there.
106:44:48 McCandless: Roger.

108:42:10 Aldrin: Okay.
[Several of the crews noted radio interference during Command Module passes over their landing sites. Because of the small radius of the Moon and the low orbit of the Command Module, the CSM is above the local horizon for only about 12 minutes out of each two hour orbit.]
[During this pass over the landing site, Mike tried the three locations passed up to him at the indicated times: M.8/8.2 ( 106:44:17 ), P.2/6.3 ( 107:05:31 ), and M.7/8.0 ( 107:10:15 ). The first and last of these are virtually identical to the estimated latitude and longitude for the LM that Charlie gave to Mike at about 104:20:42. That lat/long corresponds to map coordinates M.5/8.0 and, because the sextant field-of view corresponds to a circle on the ground 3.2 km in diameter, the differences between M.5/8.0, M.8/8.2, and M.7/8.0 are inconsequential. Near these locations, Mike drew a small circle in pencil with an arrow pointing to it. There is a very small crater at the center of the circle and this may be the 'tiny crater' Mike described at 104:42:48.]

110:18:39 McCandless: Roger. I got a P22 Auto optics PAD for you. (Pause)
110:18:53 Collins: Roger. Go ahead.
110:18:56 McCandless: Roger. P22 landmark ID, LM: T1, 110:26:56; T2, 110:32:06. Three miles south. Time of closest approach, 110:33:40. Shaft 353.855, trunnion 46.495, roll zero, pitch 250, yaw zero. Over.
110:19:53 Collins: Roger. Thank you. Readback not required.
110:19:55 McCandless: Roger. Out. (Pause)

110:36:58 Collins: Houston, Columbia.
110:37:01 McCandless: Columbia, this is Houston. Go ahead. Over.
110:37:09 Collins: Roger. No marks on the LM that time. I did see a suspiciously-small white object whose coordinates are...
110:37:25 McCandless: Go ahead with the coordinates on the small white object.
110:37:28 Collins: Easy (an alternative to the more commonly used Echo) 0.3, 7.6, but I (garbled) and it's right on the southwest rim of a crater. I think they would know it if they were in such a location. It looks like their LM would be pitched up quite a degree. It's on the southwest wall of a smallish crater.
[The LM is actually at Juliet 0.65/7.52. Mike is describing a spot about 4.4 kilometers too far south. He circled the crater at E.3/7.6 and also one at E.8/7.7 on the flown copy of LAM-2. To the left of the crater at E.3/7.6, he wrote 'SW Rim'.]
[At about this time, Buzz moves to the northern edge of the LM shadow and partially into the sun as he continues his inspection. After a short while, he moves back into the shadow near the ladder. Neil is still at the MESA.]
110:37:58 McCandless: Roger. Copy Echo 0.3 and 7.6. (Long Pause) Columbia, this is Houston. While I'm talking to you, LOS will be at 111:19:31; AOS, 112:05:43. Over. (Pause) Columbia, this is Houston. Did you copy LOS (and) AOS times? Over.
110:39:14 Collins: Negative, Houston. You broke. And disregard. I'll get them off the flight plans.
110:39:19 McCandless: Roger. Out. (Long Pause)

112:22:27 McCandless: Columbia. This is Houston. Go ahead.
112:22:34 Collins: Roger. Have you got the new coordinates for me?
112:22:37 McCandless: Roger. Latitude 00 decimal 691...That would be plus 00.691. And longitude over 2 is plus 11.713. The altitude is minus 1.44 nautical miles. Over.
112:23:15 Collins: Roger. Thank you. (Long Pause)
112:23:31 McCandless: Columbia, this is Houston. On latitude, make that plus 00.692, rounding off. Over.
112:23:45 Collins: Okay. (Long Pause) Okay. I read back plus 00692, plus 11713, and minus 00144. And do you have a grid square for me?
112:24:10 McCandless: Roger. Standby. (Long Pause) Columbia. This is Houston. Grid coordinates: Kilo 0.9, 6.3, on LAM-2. Over.
[The actual landing site is Juliet 0.65, 7.52 and, as can be seen in Figure 5-14 in the Apollo 11 Mission Report, the landing site will be just outside the field-of-view of the CSM sextant on this pass. In the figure, each of the small squares is 1 kilometer on a side and the circles, which represent the approximate sextant field-of-view, are each about 3.2 km (2 miles) in diameter. Mike reports a negative result at 112:33:59.]
112:24:38 Collins: Kilo 0.9 and 6.3. Thank you. One of these grid squares is about as much as you can scan on a single pass.
112:24:48 McCandless: Roger. (Long Pause)
[The sextant field-of-view covers an area equivalent to about seven squares.]

112:33:59 Collins: (Very faint) Houston, Columbia. No joy.
112:34:06 McCandless: This is Houston. Go ahead. Over.
112:34:12 Collins: Roger. I can't see them.
112:34:17 McCandless: Roger. I guess that takes care of the news for today, Mike.
112:34:23 Collins: Rog. (Garbled)
112:34:29 McCandless: You might be interested in knowing, Mike, that we have gotten reflections back from the laser reflector array they deployed, and we may be able to get some information out of that a little later.
[Information from the laser returns can be used to refine estimates of the landing site location made, so far, from tracking data and LM guidance telemetry.]
112:34:45 Collins: Rog. I need a very precise position, because I can only do a decent job of scanning maybe one of those grid squares at a time. The area that we've been sweeping (this is, the area covered by the various estimated positions) covers 10's and 20's and 30's of them.
112:35:00 McCandless: Roger. We understand. This is intended to be your last P22. We don't want to use up too much fuel in this effort. Over.
[In order to maintain sextant pointing, Mike must expend a small amount of maneuvering fuel.]
[At 123:55:23, about a half hour before LM liftoff, Ron Evans will give Mike a location only 200 meters from the actual landing site.

123:55:19 Collins: Houston, Columbia on Omni D Delta. Over.
123:55:23 Evans: Columbia, Houston. Roger. Loud and clear. And if you would like to take it down, we have the latest position of Tranquility Base. Over.
123:55:33 Collins: Go ahead.
123:55:36 Evans: Roger. It's just west of West Crater, Juliet 0.5, 7.7. Over.
[Details from Figure 5-8 (top) from the Apollo 11 Mission Report and from the flown copy of LAM-2 (bottom) show the area immediately around the LM. The center of West Crater is at about Juliet 0.5, 8.5, East Crater is at about Juliet 0.64m 7.58 and the actual landing site is at about Juliet 0.65, 7.52. MIke plotted the J.5/7.7 location on the flown copy of LAM-2, with the notation 'Last Bst Pos Prior L/O', where 'L/O' is (LM) 'lift-off'.]
123:55:52 Collins: Understand that it is just west of the crater which is at Juliet 0.5 and 7.7. Is that correct?
123:56:01 Evans: Columbia, Houston. That is correct.
123:56:06 Collins: Okay. Thank you, Ron. (Pause)
[Aldrin - "He's talking to Collins about West Crater, so it must have been named that way prior (to the mission)."]
[I haven't found a map Mike would have had with the name on it.]


Note the error at 112:34:29 about the laser. The ALSJ really needs a comment there about Walter Cronkite and his team making a mistake by assuming that returns were being received from the LRRR.
 
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Thank you for that sts60. But surely there were times during the journey that the conditions for seeing stars were favourable, similar to what you describe in relation to the ISS?...

I'm sure there were. Your view of the stars from a spacecraft at "night" is, I would imagine, quite comparable to the view of stars out an airliner window at night. Which has never been especially impressive to me; you're much better off at a high, dry, dark-sky place on the ground. (I can attest to this, having grown up in the American Southwest.) You're not looking through small, thick windows, and the small amount of atmosphere above you costs little relative to a pure vacuum.

The problem is not that you can't see stars from space; everyone knows, or should know, you can, under certain conditions. The problem is that (a) the view isn't that spectacular compared to that which you can obtain on Earth, (b) manned space missions aren't focused (sorry) on deep-space astronomy - there's no advantage for a manned mission to do so - and (c) on a translunar trajectory, you're always in daylight, so it's not easy to shade the interior, avoid seeing some sunlit part of the spacecraft, and get a good naked-eye view - especially when the spacecraft spends a lot of time in PTC (passive thermal control) roll, aka "barbeque mode".

The stars "issue" raised by hoax believers is akin to looking at a slide show of someone's trip to Disneyland and wondering why they don't have more to say about the inside of the soda machines, with pictures. It's just silly and shows a profound failure to grasp the point of the missions and how they actually work.
 
I would like Patrick1000 to explain, in his own words, what "Julian system based numbers" are and what "JNow" means.
 
I'd like to know the names of the number systems based on Mike, Oscar, and Papa.
:)

I can think of several based on Whiskey, but they might not be very consistent.
 
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Nice try, but no cigar

Ugh....
Juliet is for J.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet

But you knew this didn't you? This is from elsewhere. ApolloHoax forum I think. It took 3 minutes of lazy browsing to find.

To quote;
"At GET 123:55:36, the Capcom gave Collins the latest position of Tranquility Base: “It’s just west of West Crater, Juliet 0.5, 7.7.” So what does this mean? Collins had a lunar surface map that had a series of grid lines drawn across it. The lines were laid out in one-kilometer squares. The east-west lines were labeled A through W and the north-south lines were labeled 1 through 27. Juliet stood for the J line and 0.5 meant that the position was halfway between the J and K lines. The 7. stood for the #7 line and the .7 meant the position was 7/10s of the way between the 7 and 8 lines. This position is normally written as J.5/7.7.

After completion of the mission, the final estimated position of the LM was improved to J.65/7.52 after examining mission photos and film. This position was published in the post mission report as 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E, or 0.6875 N and 23.4333 E."

Nice try, but no cigar. 7.52 is a declination Humanzee. How in the world can J.5/7.7 represent H.David Reed's reverse rendezvous radar solution? It doesn't and it isn't and these guys here are working this stuff in a Julian system behind Reed's back.
 
Either that folks or he did the mistake deliberately to see just how long he can get you to respond to him while he makes him comments stupidier and stupidier.
 
It doesn't and it isn't and these guys here are working this stuff in a Julian system behind Reed's back.

You know, bluffing is usually done before you show your cards, not after... Someone call Messrs. Dunning and Kruger, there's a fine specimen for them to study.

Patrick1000, please explain in your own words:
- what that "Julian system" is;
- what "JNow" means in Starry Night or whatever astronomy software you are using
 
Here are excerpts from the ALSJ regarding the coordinates given to Mike Collins. I won't bother with formatting, but the times should be handy for further research:

Estimated LM Sites




Note the error at 112:34:29 about the laser. The ALSJ really needs a comment there about Walter Cronkite and his team making a mistake by assuming that returns were being received from the LRRR.


Here's something to go with that...

http://www.workingonthemoon.com/Vlad/a11.clsout.html

"111:32:09 Armstrong: Roger. Got 3.8 (psi); (pause) and I got 54 (percent) on the O2 and no flags, and my (cooling) flow is in Min.
[Comm Break. Neil goes to the bottom of the ladder, pulls the LEC hook back down, and returns to the MESA to attach it to the second rock box.]
[I asked if Buzz just got the rock boxes out of the way or stored them in the hard points.]

[Armstrong - "My guess is that we got them up there (into the cabin) and laid them down someplace out of the way and got on with the work."]

[In Houston, the Experiments tells the Flight Director that " Lick Observatory (in California) did get a return from the laser". Bruce asks if he can tell the crew this news, but the Flight Director decides not to distract them. McCandless passes the news up to Collins at 112:34:29. There is no further mention of the experiment during the flight.]"


Now, this occurred minutes after the NBC broadcast, and notice too that the 'information' comes from the Experiments officer, who is almost certainly watching the whole thing on TV.

P1k ignores this.
 
Boy that was interesting. Why did they leave the "I" off that map grid?

Or, you know, it could refer to something completely different.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/LAM2_CMP-flown.jpg

Boy, that is one interesting map. Why do the characters running up the left hand side of the image read A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,J,K,L......That sure is mean for these these map guys to treat the letter "I" like that. Not even putting her on the moon image. Probably hurt her feelings and then some. Poor girl.

I mean, how would you like it ArmillarySphere if you were a perfectly good letter and they ignored you and left you off the moon map for no good reason?

And I sure don't see how .65/7.54 puts ya' anywhere near 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east on that grid.

Maybe you should write to NASA and see if they will leave another letter out, move the J again , or something like that.
 
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M.8/8.2 ( 106:44:17 ), P.2/6.3 ( 107:05:31 ), and M.7/8.0 ( 107:10:15 ).
106:44:17 McCandless: More to the north and a little more to the east. The feature that I was describing to you - the small bright crater on the rim of the large, fairly old crater - would be about Mike 0.8 and 8.2. Over.

[This crater about 200 meters east of the 'tiny crater' Mike circled at M.7/8.0.]


107:05:43 McCandless: Roger, Mike. Papa 0.2 and 6.3 on your LAM-2 chart. Over.

107:06:02 Collins: Roger. Papa 0.2 and who decimal three?

107:06:05 McCandless: Six decimal three, I say again, six decimal three. (Pause)

107:06:17 Collins: Thank you. Papa 0.2 and 6.3. I'll try it.

107:10:15 McCandless: On your next pass, Columbia, rather than performing a P22 as such, we would like you to look in the vicinity of the coordinates that we gave you, which is our best analysis based on math/physics and the trajectory. And we also have another set of coordinates that we would like you to search in the vicinity of. This last one being based on an interpretation of the geological features that were seen by the crew on their way down. The coordinates of this second site are Mike 0.7 and 8.0. I say again, Mike 0.7 and 8 (garbled) I say again, Mike 0.7 and 8.0. Over.

107:11:08 Collins: Roger. Copy. Mike 0.7 and 8.0. The only thing is, my best tool for looking is the sextant and if I'm going to crank the sextant up, I might as well let P22 go at the same time, or don't you think so?

It's a standard gridding system, not obscure at all, never played battleships?
 
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Nice try, but no cigar. 7.52 is a declination Humanzee. How in the world can J.5/7.7 represent H.David Reed's reverse rendezvous radar solution? It doesn't and it isn't and these guys here are working this stuff in a Julian system behind Reed's back.

Give me a break:rolleyes: This is just trolling now. Equating Juliet to Julian, then leaping to calendars is just stupid. I mean really stupid.
 
Boy, that is one interesting map. Why do the characters running up the left hand side of the image read A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,J,K,L......That sure is mean for these these map guys to treat the letter "I" like that. Not even putting her on the moon image. Probably hurt her feelings and then some. Poor girl.

I mean, how would you like it ArmillarySphere if you were a perfectly good letter and they ignored you and left you off the moon map for no good reason?

And I sure don't see how .65/7.54 puts ya' anywhere near 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east on that grid.

Maybe you should write to NASA and see if they will leave another letter out, move the J again , or something like that.

I is confused with 1 - there is no limit to your ignorance is there?

P.s. they leave the O off for the same reason - I'll see if you have enough brain power to work out why:covereyes
 
You should go back to replying directly.

No problem. I've basically stopped replying directly to his claims and gone back to what brought me into HB debunking - digging into the rich resources available about Apollo and learning more about it. (Hey, it passes the time until my astronomy class starts for the term)

P1K basically declared his disinterest in reality by dismissing the new lunar orbiter photos. There's no point in discussing with him.


You should go back to replying directly, because I can't for the life of me figure out why they left poor little "I" off your map. Nor can I cut that thing up, chop it, stretch it , futz it any which way to see how J .5/7.7 or J .65/7.54 puts one anywhere near 0.6875 N 23.43 E.
 
You should go back to replying directly, because I can't for the life of me figure out why they left poor little "I" off your map.

It was explained to you in post #3114 above. Also, how is that relevant?

Nor can I cut that thing up, chop it, stretch it , futz it any which way to see how J .5/7.7 or J .65/7.54 puts one anywhere near 0.6875 N 23.43 E.

Yes, we know you are ignorant of cartography, there's no need to remind us.
 
Boy, that is one interesting map. Why do the characters running up the left hand side of the image read A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,J,K,L......That sure is mean for these these map guys to treat the letter "I" like that. Not even putting her on the moon image. Probably hurt her feelings and then some. Poor girl.

I mean, how would you like it ArmillarySphere if you were a perfectly good letter and they ignored you and left you off the moon map for no good reason?

And I sure don't see how .65/7.54 puts ya' anywhere near 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east on that grid.

Maybe you should write to NASA and see if they will leave another letter out, move the J again , or something like that.

I is too easily confused with 1 and O with 0. It is standard to leave them out. Just because you don't understand it and made a boneheaded mistake is no excuse to continue your trolling trying to cover up your mistake. Own up to it and be a man like you claim to be (but we all know you're not.)
 
Not so very Eagle Scouts at Lake Tahoe

By the way guys, they have to be sighting the earth, or better said, pretending to be. The cross range is 17. The Earth is at azimuth 272 0r 273. Collins is coming from due east pretty much the equator, flying overhead from zero degrees E toward 290 W. Of course he'd want to be at 0.6875 N more or less not 0.0000 N because of the "out of planing" concerns, but it's not all that important when it's all simulated anyway. These guys may as well be up at Lake Tahoe working on their star sighting/earth sighting merit badges.
 
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