Merged So there was melted steel

I didnt say that, I said reports of molten steel are common in plenty of normal fires. Are you saying that if that is true, you'll agree that your molten steel witness reports on 911 are indeed totally unremarkable like I said?

Evidence please.

Sure, I was wanting you to ask me.

First however I want you to tell me how many examples you'd like before you'll accept that your molten steel witness' on 911 are totally unremarkable like I said.

For example, Miragememories gave us 12 links. Not all of them talked about molten or melted steel, but if I were to show you that many reports of molten/melted/melting steel in other fires, would that be enough for you? If you'd need more than that, how many would be enough?

I just want to see if I gave you everything you ask for you'd actually change your mind. If you dont think I can prove it then you have nothing to worry about, so how about it? I double dare ya :)
 
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Tempesta29 are you saying that a large mass of thermite would not keep oxidizing once started or that there were large pockets of thermite in the rubble that didn't ignite until later?
 
Sure, I was wanting you to ask me.

First however I want you to tell me how many examples you'd like before you'll accept that your molten steel witness' on 911 are totally unremarkable like I said.

For example, Miragememories gave us 12 links. Not all of them talked about molten or melted steel, but if I were to show you that many reports of molten/melted/melting steel in other fires, would that be enough for you? If you'd need more than that, how many would be enough?

I just want to see if I gave you everything you ask for you'd actually change your mind. If you dont think I can prove it then you have nothing to worry about, so how about it? I double dare ya :)

I'm really not fearful of some sort of gotcha internet post. If you believe you have evidence to support your argument, knock yourself out.

Tempesta29 are you saying that a large mass of thermite would not keep oxidizing once started or that there were large pockets of thermite in the rubble that didn't ignite until later?

Keep oxidizing? Well, obviously thermite would burn out at some point and the steel would remain molten until... it wasn't. I'm not suggesting molten steel was discovered simply because thermite was ignited until much later though.
 
I'm really not fearful of some sort of gotcha internet post. If you believe you have evidence to support your argument, knock yourself out.

There's no gotcha,

I am just wanting you to draw the line in the sand and say specifically how many examples from reports of other fires would you need to see to give up this idea that the reports of molten/melted/melting steel on 911 were special or remarkable in some way?

How many? 6? 12 18? How many?

Don't get me wrong, we'll all be waiting for you to move the goal posts but it would be nice if just this once we see you actually make a definite statement on this so it would be obvious to everyone you weren't seriously going to change your mind even if you are given everything you ever asked for.

So again, how many examples would convince you? Even just a ball park figure will do if you want. How many would it take for you to conceed my point? If you dont think I really can show what I say I can show, whats the problem? Links to previous posts have been given in this thread BTW, you can actually see what Im talking about already if you wanted a sneak peak.
 
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Plain and simple.

The red chips, endemic in the WTC dust, have been found to contain iron oxide, but not free iron, or iron microspheres.
Partially true, partially untrue. Yes samples of the red layer have contained Fe2O3 as rhombohedral particles but this is not evidence of thermite. Such particles are a regular constituent of paint and have been so for decades. If you disagree then use the search function (it's late for me but iirc you'll find a reference to the production of such particles using chemical techniques in Oystyein's " what is the source of paint" thread which you have already commentated upon).

If you had been following the discussion of said material, you would also be privy to the knowledge that the red material also had shiny metallic spheres present pre-ignition. I trust your finely honed truther ability to search for the truth in this matter. I will not spoon-feed you, you should be aware of the source.

Hint: Red/red chips.

In addition it has been shown that the aluminium constituent of this material is no greater than 1.68% by weight which is from truther data and therefore shows that this material is a pathetic candidate for thermite - this you have been shown before.

At 430 C these chips ignite.
Which is way below the temperature that thermite ignites at and is below the temperature that nano-thermite ignites at (see Tilitson et al and other papers. Hint: Especially the production of Fe/Al composites using ball milling and Al and Fe2O3 powders) and it has been shown that epoxy resins ignite readily at that temperature.

Please identify the organic material that was observed in the material that Harrit et al obtained.

Please show that this material could not ignite at 430°C
in air or otherwise.

Thank you.

After ignition, free iron in the form of iron microspheres or droplets can be found.
Incorrect. Please provide evidence of "free iron", which by the definition from those that constantly refer to "free", means a pure element. I expect a significant level of detail in your answer. This answer should be your own words with references. I can already save you the time and tell you not to trawl the Harrit et al paper because you will not find evidence of "elemental" or "free" iron.


Temperatures in the range of 1500+ C are required to do this.
Not really because you are ignoring chemistry at elevated temperatures over a significant time period such as reduction and oxidation.

Please show that the maximum temperature that the reaction at 430°C reached.


You do realise that it's the gray layer of the red/gray chips that predominantly forms the microspheres don't you? Why is there unreacted thermite present in the post DSC samples when the DSC ran to 700°C some 270°C higher than the 430°C ignition of supposed nano-thermite in the sample? All of the thermite should have reacted by 700°C. Why was there still nano-thermite present?


The WTC dust is known to be riddled with iron microspheres as well as the red chips. MM
But RJ Lee expected to observe such "iron rich microspheres" and paint.

2.3.5 Heat affected particulate and combustion products

Particles that either were formed as a consequence of high temperature or were modified by exposure to high temperature are important WTC Dust Markers for WTC Dust. Fires that were a part of the WTC Event produced combustion-modified products that traveled with other components of WTC Dust. Considering the high temperatures reached during the destruction of the WTC, the following three types of combustion products would be expected to be present in WTC Dust. These products are: • Vesicular carbonaceous particles primarily from plastics
• Iron-rich spheres from iron-bearing building components or contents• High temperature aluminosilicate from building materials
Please comment on the highlighted and enlarged text. Why do you not think this is to be expected? Support your work.

In addition to the spherical iron and aluminosilicate particles, a variety of heavy metal particles including lead, cadmium, vanadium, yttrium, arsenic, bismuth, and barium particles were produced by the pulverizing, melting and/or combustion of the host materials such as solder, computer screens, and paint during the WTC Event.

1.2 WTC Event Dust Constituents

Building materials from which the WTC Towers were constructed include
structural steel, asbestos-containing insulation material, other insulating
fibrous material (mineral wool and glass fibers), cement and aggregate
(concrete), wallboard, ceiling tiles, ducts, wiring, paint, plate glass, and
other components. Building contents of the WTC included computers and
other electronic equipment, fluorescent lights, furniture, office supplies, and
a myriad of other items. The brittle and friable components of these
materials were pulverized during the collapse and the combustible
components were partially burned in the ensuing fires.
Please comment in detail why you think they are wrong.

I expect a lengthy post of your own work MM and not a hand wave, one liner, youtube vid or quote.
 
Buy steel wool and a pack of matches. I believe you can figure out what to do with them.
Did the match get to 1500+C degrees? Did the steel wool?

If it was not required for steel wool why would it be required for iron oxide chips?
You've been mislead by the NWO illuminati lizard people. All steel wool by definition is thermite!

Jokes aside, this is a simple experiment that everyone can do with the most minimal of finances.

Get some fine wire wool. Get a lighter and burn it. Now from what I can recall it's the accelerant, namely the oil on the wire wool left over from the drawing process that fuels the fire that burns the steel wool. However, if you look at what is left of the wire wool you will see "iron microspheres" present. Inside job!! This is one of the reasons why we see iron rich microspheres in the dust.

Why will magnesium ribbon burn by setting it on fire with a zippo but a Kg of Mg not burn when you hold the zippo flame next to it? Chemistry is a NWO conspiracy!
 
I'm really not fearful of some sort of gotcha internet post. If you believe you have evidence to support your argument, knock yourself out.



Keep oxidizing? Well, obviously thermite would burn out at some point and the steel would remain molten until... it wasn't. I'm not suggesting molten steel was discovered simply because thermite was ignited until much later though.

Obviously thermite burns out at some point. It does this when it no longer has any left to burn.

And your last sentence seems to indicate that you think that there was simply a large mass that took a while to fully burn out. Is this correct?
 
You're one of them over-achieving types, aren't you? We're still working on teaching Bill how to handle math word problems. ;)
I suspect BS is still trying to fathom how to tie shoe laces even though he has velcro on his shoes.

Laces? What laces? How can I tie my shoes when there are no laces? It's a NWO conspiracy I tell thee!
 
Obviously thermite burns out at some point. It does this when it no longer has any left to burn.

And your last sentence seems to indicate that you think that there was simply a large mass that took a while to fully burn out. Is this correct?

I think there is confusion with my prose. What I meant is that I do not think there was thermite left over. I have no evidence either way, but I don't see how thermite "gets left over" under any circumstance.
 
Okay then.

Do you have any other thoughts on the origins of molten steel?
 
I'll give TMD credit for trying to address my third question.

I still don't see why the pile couldn't have acted like a furnace though.

Before I reply let me qualify as I've been doing that the landfill fire I found was highest I found, I am not saying it's the highest ever.

Let's see what else the article says about that particular fire. "The excavated deposits were piled looselyin the landfill. The pile grew from September 1999 to August 2000 reaching a maximum height of 15 m. "

So the loosely piled would indicate it would be similar to the WTC, making it easier for air to get through. 15 M is about 50 feet the pile at the WTC was 80ft. Let's see what else it says. "Pile surface temperature was recorded to be 130oF (54oC)" and "Maximum temperature exceeded 960oF (516oC) at the core of the hot spot, nearly four meters below the pile surface." That means the core is about 7.3 times hotter than the surface.

So let's see we have recorded reading from NASA at 1341F on the surface.http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html So if we use the same factor that would mean there's a core temperature of 9789. Now I know this may not be the best way to come up with the core temperature, but the point is, that it's awfully hot. That is a big difference from the landfill fire, a landfill fire that by it's description should be acting the way it did at the WTC, loosely compacted. So you have the subway providing more air, and what you claim may be a different source of fuel although I can not how what was in the WTC would burn much hotter than a landfill.

Awfully interesting information this all is.
 
A landfill is typically compacted carefully. As such landfills are often planted over and used as parks or even residential land after they are no longer in use.

The debris piles contained many voids created by the jumble of large debris contained within. The voids would both:

a) allow air to circulate thru the piles
b) prevent water from directly contacting all the debris

It's perfectly reasonable to assume that debris piles would not behave exactly as typical landfills.

LOL so the voids would allow greater air flow and at the same time restrict water flow. You should make a video of this. You could put it in a playlist right after your video of "debunking" CD with a CD technique.
 
Patently false. Firefighters say they saw molten steel "running down the channel rails". One report mentioned an actual steel beam dripping molten.

Why lie if you're so confident in your theory?
There was no steel running down the channel rails, the firemen would be on fire; you have no clue what science is, and you love to show it.

You believe in hearsay, and have failed to figure out 911 given over 10 years and all the answers. That is not good; but you will persist at failing...
 
Straw man. Who is claiming the thermite would have burned endlessly?

What DO you claim then? How long did it burn? How was it ignited? How did it get to where you think it was, and in what amounts, so that it could melt steel in time to bve observed some time after 9/11?
 
Do you think there were such bulk amounts of molten steel days or weeks after 9/11?
Molten metal in the debris pile was observed be many credible sources. I have no reason to disbelief those eyewitnesses.

Here is an interesting video I've found;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wwbOUR-sxI&feature=player_embedded

And the History Channel helped with more evidence;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J22-NEXvAgA&feature=related
...
[snipped a lot of stuff no one asked for]
...
I could write a whole book on the many references to the molten and red hot metal found at WTC Ground Zero.

MM

MM, I didn't ask you to prove there was molten steel. I simply asked you: "Do you think there were such bulk amounts of molten steel days or weeks after 9/11?". A simple Yes or No would have totally sufficed. No book was asked for, no evidence too. Remember, this thread was opened under the premise that we agree, for argument's sake, that indeed there were bulk amounts of molten steel observed some time after 9/11.

But you managed successfully to dodge the real questions! Because, as you are certainly well aware, my post went on to ask the real questions:

If so, please try to answer:
  1. If the molten steel was observed a significant while after the collapses - 1 day, 1 week, or 1 month - when did it melt? a) before the collapse b) during the collapse c) after the collapse
  2. If you answered a or b): Why did the molten steel not disperse, mix with cooler dust and debris, and resolidify before 1 day (week, month) had passed and the molten steel was observed?
  3. If you answered c): You say it was pre-planted thermite. Why did that thermite not disperse and mix with the other dust and debris and become ineffective? How could it stay concentrated in sufficient amounts during the collapse to produce a bulk amount of molten steel after the collapse?
  4. If you answered c): Why did the thermite not melt steel before or during the collapse? Did it malfunction? Or was it never intended to play a role with regard to the collapse itself?

So now please, MM:

  1. If the molten steel was observed a significant while after the collapses - 1 day, 1 week, or 1 month - when did it melt? a) before the collapse b) during the collapse c) after the collapse
  2. If you answered a or b): Why did the molten steel not disperse, mix with cooler dust and debris, and resolidify before 1 day (week, month) had passed and the molten steel was observed?
  3. If you answered c): You say it was pre-planted thermite. Why did that thermite not disperse and mix with the other dust and debris and become ineffective? How could it stay concentrated in sufficient amounts during the collapse to produce a bulk amount of molten steel after the collapse?
  4. If you answered c): Why did the thermite not melt steel before or during the collapse? Did it malfunction? Or was it never intended to play a role with regard to the collapse itself?
 
produce the formerly molten steel then.

AW, that is off-topic in this thread. Let's not allow anyone to move goal posts, and let's not do it ourselves.

The premise of this thread is explicitly:
Yes in this thread I won't even contend there was no molten steel. I will do this so that I can finally get some answers as to how the presence of it means anything malicious.
...

Can we all please agree to press for answers that inform the OP?
 
I think some kind of thermite was probably used in conjunction with explosives.

Ok.

Now please explain:
  1. If the molten steel was observed a significant while after the collapses - 1 day, 1 week, or 1 month - when did it melt? a) before the collapse b) during the collapse c) after the collapse
  2. If you answered a or b): Why did the molten steel not disperse, mix with cooler dust and debris, and resolidify before 1 day (week, month) had passed and the molten steel was observed?
  3. If you answered c): You say it was pre-planted thermite. Why did that thermite not disperse and mix with the other dust and debris and become ineffective? How could it stay concentrated in sufficient amounts during the collapse to produce a bulk amount of molten steel after the collapse?
  4. If you answered c): Why did the thermite not melt steel before or during the collapse? Did it malfunction? Or was it never intended to play a role with regard to the collapse itself?
 
Miragememories said:
"Plain and simple.

The red chips, endemic in the WTC dust, have been found to contain iron oxide, but not free iron, or iron microspheres."
Sunstealer said:
"Partially true, partially untrue. Yes samples of the red layer have contained Fe2O3 [iron oxide] as rhombohedral particles but this is not evidence of thermite. Such particles are a regular constituent of paint and have been so for decades."

Oh really?

I didn't bring up the unusual presence of "rhombohedral shaped particles" found inside the red layer but since you chose to go there.

Physicist Jeff Farrer said:
"The red layer is not a naturally occurring material. Sure you have iron oxide everywhere that you have iron you get an iron oxide. But you don't get them in nice little 100 nanometer rhombohedral shaped particles inside of a very small red layer. By the way, just to give you a reference on the size, these particles that are in the red layer are thousands of times smaller than the width of a human hair. So these are very sophisticated particles of very sophisticated materials. Not materials that we would expect to find in the demolition debris of a building. In order to get that kind of consistency with shape and size and to be that small, these really are sophisticated materials. And probably only developed in a laboratory. They maybe processed outside a laboratory but they are developed in a laboratory."

MM
 

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