Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[Patrick1000]

An experiment to answer this question, Drewid and Berry in a box for 48 hours

I apologise for the Pat style wall, but it is worth a read if you're interested in the medical background.
And here are the team that Pat is calling incompetent

It's from the "Preliminary clinical report of the medical aspects of Apollos 7 and 8." The PDF doesn't display correctly but the text is still there, you can also view it as html. I've spaced it a bit to aid readability.





A thought experiment to answer this "question" once and for all,

Drewid and Berry in a box for 48 hours.

Look for this to come out in the journal NATURE, a full fledged peer reviewed paper, sometime next month.



Drewid, you need some help, let me help you out there. I'll write a form letter for you and you can send it to all those surviving team members above(your list of docs in post 2933 above) and in so doing, you'll be able to measure their competency by way of their responses. You'll see where I am going with this. It is very straight forward.

From: Drewid
To: Dr. Charles Berry
Regarding: Is the air safe to breath?

Dear Doctor Berry,

I am a graduate student at the Yale University School of Public Health. Some crazy kooky guy on the internet is writing bad things about you, and since I study this stuff, I am hoping you will go along with a little experiment of mine so we can prove him wrong and you competent.

Dr. Berry, the internet troublemaker's name is Patrick1000. His basic claim is that the Apollo 8 cabin had to have been filled with air that was unsafe to breath. Likewise, he claims that all the surfaces inside of the Apollo 8 command module had to have been contaminated with stool and its associated viral and bacterial complements, all this given astronaut Borman's zero G case of viral gastroenteritis as diagnosed per you in the Apollo 8 Mission Report section dedicated to medical concerns.

I think we can put that ignoramus Patrick1000 in his place Dr. Berry with a simple experiment. I, just today, have come down with a pretty bad case of viral gastroenteritis myself. I was hoping to come by your home today with a nebulizer that I use to aerosolize my stool . I thought if you and I stayed together in one of the rooms of your house and every time I took I poop I would nebulize it and then we could prove that breathing stool like this for a day or two was OK.

We can see if someone can rig up a filtering device similar to what they had in the Apollo 8. We'd then just hang out, you and me for 2 days together in that one room with my poop first aerosolized and then hopefully filtered, at least to some degree. We'll follow up with you over the course of the ensuing few days , then months and then next year, just in case you come down with anything weird like hepatitis.

What do you say Charles? Should be safe, don't ya' think. I am hoping to do my Master's Thesis on this so I'll be sure to credit you, no problem. I am sending this to some of the other Apollo Medical Team staff, just in case you chicken out.

All the best, Drewid

 

[drewid]

translation: "Oh no real evidence, I must try to avoid it"

 

[drewid]

I'll write a form letter for you and you can send it to all those surviving team members above(your list of docs in post 2933 above) and in so doing, you'll be able to measure their competency by way of their responses.

I'm certainly judging your competency by your response.

Let me see, who to believe? On the one hand a bunch of obviously qualified people who are happy to have their names in this document, on the other someone who claims medical experience but has never given indications of relevant qualifications and is known to be economical with the truth...

Tricky.

From: Drewid
To: Dr. Charles Berry
Regarding: Is the air safe to breath?

Dear Doctor Berry,

I am a graduate student at the Yale University School of Public Health.

And isn't it funny that your first suggestion is to head straight into lying, even when it's not necessary.

 

[Toke]

translation: "Oh no real evidence, I must try to avoid it"

He have spent a lot of time on coordinates, do you know where these make any sense?
28.78 north, 77.22 east

 

[tsig]

Sorry, but has P1000 provided any documentation from NASA or the space sciences community, written prior to Apollo, that considered bowel movements as a major impediment to lunar exploration?

Apparently he thinks the moon was one crap over the line.

 

[tsig]

How can it possibly not be fake if Borman takes the very pill that made him sick? He jeopardized the entire mission, now intentionally by taking a second pill. The Houston people told him that they contemplated an abort, and what does Borman go and do? He takes a second pill?!!!!

Diagnosis; fake mission!

Why are you so interested in Bormans' anal tract?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Once again Patrick concludes Borman definitely had viral gastroenteritis, and continues to embellish the squalid conditions he fantasises about in the capsule. One loose bowel movement into a bag does not mean the cabin was awash with sewage.

 

[ArmillarySphere]

Three astronauts, one cup?

(warning for the mental image)

To my mind, Borman taking a second dose of Seconal actually makes sense from a test pilot perspective. They're almost home, and nothing much bad can happen even if he has another episode. What better test to determine whether the reaction was the result of the Seconal or simply SAS? The dose was lower as well, so that any adverse reactions would hopefully be limited, and being prepared, he could deal with them if that should happen. From the descriptions, the reactions did reoccur, but were limited, so that pretty conclusively shows that the Seconal was at fault, allowing the medical team to alter recommendations for future missions.

Part of the mission was after all to examine how the human body behaves in space, and to work out safe procedures. Borman here works to the benefit of his colleagues. I haven't read the flight journal, but I would not be surprised if this happened with the consent of the medical team.

From the medical team's perspective, once they are alerted to the situation Borman is already feeling better. Note the recommendations given to him if he should have another episode - the first one is already over and done with, and no further action is required at the moment. The worst-case scenario is that the others come down with the same infection, but the recommended medication would work for them as well in that case. Nothing will be gained by a direct abort, as they wouldn't get home in time to prevent an infection anyway. Given the situation, the age-old medical advice of "wait and see" works as well as it would back on Earth.


To put it in an abstract sense, this is the radiation issue in a different context. Instead of "OMG radiation", we have "OMG germs". In the real world, you assess the risk, evaluate the possible consequences and then go on after reducing both to acceptable levels. Going to space is never going to be 100% safe, but you don't let that stop you, and any outcome short of lethal is a nuisance by comparison.

 

[drewid]

He have spent a lot of time on coordinates, do you know where these make any sense?
28.78 north, 77.22 east

The Apollo guys seemed quite happy to use both degrees/minutes/seconds and degrees/decimal, as well as different coordinate systems associated with different maps of the same area.

However having said that the decimals they use were usually written to four decimal places rather than two, so either way it doesn't seem to fit.

 

[Toke]

The Apollo guys seemed quite happy to use both degrees/minutes/seconds and degrees/decimal, as well as different coordinate systems associated with different maps of the same area.

However having said that the decimals they use were usually written to four decimal places rather than two, so either way it doesn't seem to fit.

It is patricks profile location so I guess it is no surprise it makes no sense to you either.

 

[drewid]

It is patricks profile location so I guess it is no surprise it makes no sense to you either.

Ah well, that's Muradnagar, which Pat has said is north of Delhi.
1) if that's where he is then he consistently posts at around 03:00 am, so it's probably a lie.

2) It isn't north of Delhi anyway, it's north east. East north east in fact.
It would be more accurate to say it's north east of Ghaziabad, which itself is east of Dehli.
So not north of Delhi except in a very inaccurate sense.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Is it within 25,000 feet of Delhi?

 

[Kiwi9]

In Reed's Own words... <Snip> I assume this is what you were interested in Kiwi9. Reed of course would know better than me and so I thought it best to allow him to answer your question for himself.

No, no, no, Patrick1000, no! No! No! No! You assume wrongly because you didn't or couldn't read the post properly even though it was written in plain, unambiguous English. How many more times are you going to prove to us that you are so incompetent that you have no idea you are indeed as incompetent as you really are? That is Dunning-Kruger Syndrome.

The point in post 2913 and back through the gazillions of other reminders to the original, No. 2079, is that you uses your own words, not Reed's, to decribe your understanding of what he accomplished shortly before Eagle launched from the moon.

Can you understand such a remarkably simple concept, Pattydash?

YOUR OWN WORDS.

I'll say it again:

YOUR OWN WORDS. YOUR WORDS AND YOURS ALONE. NOBODY ELSE'S, NOT EVEN REED'S. JUST YOUR WORDS, PATRICK1000, YOURS AND YOURS ALONE. ONLY YOURS. YOUR VERY OWN WORDS..

Are you getting this, Slappydash? I'll hint at the type of thing I'm seeking below.


Another thing I have already pointed out to you, and you were too incompetent to notice:

"FROM THE TRENCHES OF MISSION CONTROL TO THE CRATERS OF THE MOON."
"From The Trench of Mission Control to the Craters of The Moon"

See the differences (and I'm not referring to the capitals) in the third word? In fact, you actually had a third name for the book ("Trenched") in one of your posts. It would be very, very good if you were competent enough to name the book consistently. But, alas, you are not.


Here's something else you weren't competent enough to notice in Post 2913:

...I would now like Patrick1000 to tell us, in his own words, exactly what his understanding is of the length of time between Frank Borman becoming ill and Chuck Berry talking to the Apollo 8 crew.

Perhaps he could also say whether he thinks the crew could have cleaned up the cabin before Berry spoke to them, and whether he thinks they had to clean up bucketsful that were splattered everywhere, or just a few relatively minor globs of goo.

I'd also like him to tell us exactly what was said during that discussion between Berry and the crew, and to give us all the information he has on what the medical people in Mission Control discussed, particularly their diagnosis of Bormans's illness. Not just links or quotes, Patrick1000 (if you are reading this), but your own understanding in your own words, although it would be excellent if you provided links or references to the material that gives you that understanding.

I expect that Patrick1000 will conform to his established track record and will not respond in an adult-like manner, and as I have pretty-much had a gutsful of this lying, one-eyed, idiotic troll who seems to know nothing at all about logical fallacies or the Dunning-Kruger syndrome, I would ask other members to kindly follow up this point with him as many times as necessary.

See that, Patty? If you don't see it, read it again. It also says, "Your own understanding in your own words."

Do you understand? YOUR OWN WORDS.

Begorrah! I must be psychic. I predicted that you wouldn't respond in an adult-like manner and you didn't. You assumed I meant Reed's words when I could barely have made it clearer that I wanted yours, and your words alone.

What a pity you couldn't understand. That really is extreme incompetence. But you don't know that you are incompetent, right?

As I said, I am so close to having a gutsful of your idiocy, but here is the sort of thing you could say about Reed, if it is what you believe:

1. Reed asked that the Capcom request the Apollo 11 Lunar Module crew to turn on the LM's rendezvous radar, which they did.
2. He used the rendezvous radar in the Lunar Module, which was on the moon, to make contact with the Command Module, which was orbiting overhead.
3. By using this contact between the two radars in a reverse fashion, he was able to calculate a near-enough location of the LM on the moon.

That is all. Very easy huh? Feel free to adapt my words to say, in your own words, what you understand Reed to have accomplished. However, I doubt that you are competent to do that.

And don't miss the new questions about Chuck Berry and Apollo 8, above. You've already missed them once. And that too, is incompetence, isn't it?

Finally, I see that in your HighGain personna you have been banned from the BAUT forum for the second time. This time, for sock puppetry and ban evasion.
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread...d-suspended-posters-log?p=1935965#post1935965

 

[Patrick1000]

Did the astronauts teach Jay Barbree how to poop in a bag?

Oh My!!!!!! The chickens really have come home to roost this time. If this isn't the most interesting thing we have turned up since we discovered Apollo 11's toilet didn't flush.

It turns out, rather surprisingly, then again not, that the most interesting and REVEALING article of any type ever written about the Apollo Missions was a 07/20/2009 forty year commemorative piece by NBS News Correspondent Jay Barbree. The article, entitled WHAT WE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE MOON WALK, reveals everything one needs to know about the mystery of the fraudulent Apollo missions. The article provides us with nothing less than a full fledged Apollo epiphany, and this epiphany can be all yours if you are brave enough to countenance the horrific and go here; http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3196510...ce-space/t/what-we-didnt-know-about-moonwalk/. Believe me friends, reading this article takes more nerve than actually going to the moon. Scared? Not yet? You will be.

As most recall, journalist Jay Barbree, in addition to writing the article referred to above, also coauthored the book MOON SHOT by Alan Shepard and Deke Slayton. The book features an Introduction by astronaut Neil Armstrong entitled "Neil Armstrong's Moon". And in that introduction, Armstrong lauds all three; Shepard, Slayton and Barbree as well. Here's Armstrong;

"Deke and Alan were at the heart of the manned space program. Deke was responsible for the selection of flight crews and their preparedness to fly in space. He took an intense interest in the well being of his flock, protecting, supporting, and encouraging them. They were test pilots, and he understood them. He was a superb boss.

Alan, as chief of the Astronaut Office, was responsible for day-to-day operations. Astronauts were needed for spacecraft tests, for design reviews, for newspaper interviews. With equanimity, he distributed these seemingly limitless tasks to a very limited number of “his boys.” He was an impenetrable barrier to inappropriate or untimely requests. He was “the man in the middle” and handled it well.

Moon Shot is their story. Much more than the story of their flights in space, it details their central role in the most exciting adventure in history. Jay Barbree, one of the world’s most experienced space journalists, reported the triumphs and the tragedies from the dawn of the space age. He is exceptionally well qualified to recall and record the remarkable events and emotions of the time."

Barbree, Jay; Alan Shepard; Deke Slayton (2011-04-27). Moon Shot: The Inside Story of America's Apollo Moon Landings (ebook Locations 68-76). Open Road E-riginal.

And now, courtesy of his own 2009 Fortieth Apollo 11 Anniversary Commemorative article, we'll find out who exactly, or better said, what exactly, this Jay Barbree is. Right from the dumb monkey's own mouth. This is beautiful.

Barbree wants to give us all the inside scoop as to why the Apollo 11 EVA began early. Well it turns out boys and girls, the answer is a heck of a lot more interesting than one ever could possibly have imagined, or better said, the circumstances under which the answer was provided were indeed unimaginably interesting. Here's Barbree from his 2009 article, WHAT WE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE MOON WALK;

"What we on Earth did not know at the time was exactly why history’s first moonwalk began when it did. NASA had scheduled a four-hour sleep and rest period for Armstrong and Aldrin in the lunar module, or LM, and we were told to wait.


It turned out that we were hoodwinked.

The truth came out last November. NBC News President Steve Capus was giving me a dinner to celebrate my 50 years at the network. Former astronauts Neil Armstrong, John Glenn and Edgar Mitchell flew in, along with other survivors of the old days. Following dinner and a short ride to one of our favorite watering holes, Neil spilled the beans.

“Of course we wanted to get outside as soon as possible, before an emergency. But we thought we would need several hours to get the LM’s fluids and systems settled,” he explained.

"For several hours you reporters would have been speculating, guessing about possible problems, and we didn’t want one of you inventing stories,” Neil grinned.

“That’s why we put in a four-hour sleep and rest period we hoped we would never use.”

We laughed, and Neil laughed, and he added, “Everything went much faster than we expected.”

Most of us were having dinner when the call came that the moonwalk would begin early. We rushed back to our microphones and reported the history-making event of our lives."

Hoodwinked Jay? Speak for yourself, I am not having any part of this.

So Neil Armstrong himself flies out for Jay Barbree's 50 years with NBC celebration. Seeing is believing; below Armstrong, Glenn and Barbree at the lap dog's party.









Of course the moon hoax stuff is ever so preposterous, but that doesn't keep Barbree from writing about it in his big 40th Apollo Anniversary Commemorative piece. Here's Barbree from that ever so ever so ever so revealing article again;

"Was the moonwalk faked? No! 
It would be these highly defined footprints that would set some armchair physicists crying the moonwalk was a fake. In the years to come there would be those who would claim Apollo astronauts never went to the moon.

They said all of it was done on a movie set in an Arizona. It occurred to me that if NASA had been so deviously smart to persuade 400,000 Apollo workers to lie, to persuade the Russians to lie, to persuade the people tracking the lunar flights with giant radio antennas around the world to lie ... well, if NASA got away with it once, would the agency be so stupid as to try to get away with this world-class hoax nine times?

The claim is too dumb not to be laughable.* It is sad.* We as a people would rather think the worst of ourselves than the best.


Nevertheless, scientific investigators investigated.

Myth-believers claimed that Neil and Buzz could have only left such firm, defined bootprints in soil with moisture — and everyone knows there is no water on the moon, right? Wrong. There’s now evidence there could be water ice at the poles, but that hasn’t a thing to do with the first footprints on the moon.

Close examination of the lunar soil back on earth showed it to be virgin. The grains still had their sharp edges. They had not been rounded off by wind and erosion in an atmosphere.* In their vacuum the sharp edges of lunar soil cling together, leaving a smooth surface much as moist sand does on a beach.

"Where were the stars," the myth-believers ask. "Where’s the crater carved out by Eagle's descent rockets during landing?"

The cameras that NASA sent to the moon had to use short-exposure times to take pictures of the bright lunar surface and the moonwalkers' white spacesuits. Stars’ images were too faint and underexposed to be seen, as they are in photographs taken from Earth orbit.*

And why didn’t the descent rockets carve out a crater?* Their thrust was simply too weak to make a huge dent in the lunar surface."

So isn't this revealing?! Told you it would be. It would seem our friend Mr. Barbree gets all of the inside tid bits, right from the astronauts and astronaut bosses themselves; Armstrong, Slayton, Shepard, John Glenn for God's sake no less. And what kind of interesting tid bits, inside facts does ol' Jay get hipped to? Well boys and girls, cool stuff like;

"Where were the stars," the myth-believers ask. "Where’s the crater carved out by Eagle's descent rockets during landing?"

The cameras that NASA sent to the moon had to use short-exposure times to take pictures of the bright lunar surface and the moonwalkers' white spacesuits. Stars’ images were too faint and underexposed to be seen, as they are in photographs taken from Earth orbit."

Hey Jay, I remember that line! You fed it to me in the MOON SHOT book when you wrote how easy it was to see stars after all. Easy!!!;

“Where were the stars?” the myth believers then asked. The cameras that NASA sent to the moon had to use short-exposure times to take pictures of the bright lunar surface and the moonwalkers’ white spacesuits. Stars’ images, easily seen by the moonwalkers, were too faint and underexposed to be seen as they are in photographs taken from space shuttles and the International Space Station."

Barbree, Jay; Alan Shepard; Deke Slayton (2011-04-27). Moon Shot: The Inside Story of America's Apollo Moon Landings (ebook Locations 3607-3609). Open Road E-riginal..

So there you have it folks. Our friend Jay Barbree, his articles are HOAX PROOF, because Jay's a good ol' boy and he gets his facts straight from the astronauts themselves. And if Jay says the astronauts could easily see stars, well we know that has to be the truth because he heard it from right out of both sides of Neil Armstrong's mouth. Hey, Neil flew across the country for Jay's party.

So the net time you review the astronauts' statements from the Apollo 11 post flight press conference and you read that Neil Armstrong claimed that the not so very Eagle scouts couldn't see stars from cislunar space or the surface of the moon, or the next time you see that clip from the 1970 BBC Patrick Moore/Neil Armstrong interview in which Armstrong reiterates the inability of observers to see stars from cislunar space or the surface of the moon, well don't believe it for a nanosecond cuz' isn't ol' Neil entitled to change his mind about trivial stuff like this? I mean it wasn't like he was ADAMANT about not being able to see stars. He only hammered the point to death.

So Barbree's a lap dog. Of course he's not in on any fix. He just writes what people tell him to write. Rewrites history and science when/as convenient. One day no stars, next day yes stars. No big deal, right Neil?

I wonder if they showed Jay how to poop in a bag?

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

It would be helpful if you could have a point when writing these posts.

Also, if you could clearly delineate the difference between your words and the quotations from written sources it would assist us in knowing which bits to ignore and which to mock roundly for inconsistent insistence of insidious instances.

 

[godless dave]

Um, that article really doesn't help your case at all.

 

[twinstead]

This thread is ridiculous.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Patrick is the only one here who doesn't understand the star visibility issue. Or at least pretends not to understand.

Imagine being so desperate that after 74 pages of failure you would post such a long, long shaggy dog story merely to regurgitate the imbecilic "where were the stars" gambit.

Brevity is the soul of wit. The wall of text above is witless.

 

[Patrick1000]

What Reed did , in my own words.

No, no, no, Patrick1000, no! No! No! No! You assume wrongly because you didn't or couldn't read the post properly even though it was written in plain, unambiguous English. How many more times are you going to prove to us that you are so incompetent that you have no idea you are indeed as incompetent as you really are? That is Dunning-Kruger Syndrome.

The point in post 2913 and back through the gazillions of other reminders to the original, No. 2079, is that you uses your own words, not Reed's, to decribe your understanding of what he accomplished shortly before Eagle launched from the moon.

Can you understand such a remarkably simple concept, Pattydash?

YOUR OWN WORDS.

I'll say it again:

YOUR OWN WORDS. YOUR WORDS AND YOURS ALONE. NOBODY ELSE'S, NOT EVEN REED'S. JUST YOUR WORDS, PATRICK1000, YOURS AND YOURS ALONE. ONLY YOURS. YOUR VERY OWN WORDS..

Are you getting this, Slappydash? I'll hint at the type of thing I'm seeking below.


Another thing I have already pointed out to you, and you were too incompetent to notice:



See the differences (and I'm not referring to the capitals) in the third word? In fact, you actually had a third name for the book ("Trenched") in one of your posts. It would be very, very good if you were competent enough to name the book consistently. But, alas, you are not.


Here's something else you weren't competent enough to notice in Post 2913:




See that, Patty? If you don't see it, read it again. It also says, "Your own understanding in your own words."

Do you understand? YOUR OWN WORDS.

Begorrah! I must be psychic. I predicted that you wouldn't respond in an adult-like manner and you didn't. You assumed I meant Reed's words when I could barely have made it clearer that I wanted yours, and your words alone.

What a pity you couldn't understand. That really is extreme incompetence. But you don't know that you are incompetent, right?

As I said, I am so close to having a gutsful of your idiocy, but here is the sort of thing you could say about Reed, if it is what you believe:

1. Reed asked that the Capcom request the Apollo 11 Lunar Module crew to turn on the LM's rendezvous radar, which they did.
2. He used the rendezvous radar in the Lunar Module, which was on the moon, to make contact with the Command Module, which was orbiting overhead.
3. By using this contact between the two radars in a reverse fashion, he was able to calculate a near-enough location of the LM on the moon.

That is all. Very easy huh? Feel free to adapt my words to say, in your own words, what you understand Reed to have accomplished. However, I doubt that you are competent to do that.

And don't miss the new questions about Chuck Berry and Apollo 8, above. You've already missed them once. And that too, is incompetence, isn't it?

Finally, I see that in your HighGain personna you have been banned from the BAUT forum for the second time. This time, for sock puppetry and ban evasion.
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread...d-suspended-posters-log?p=1935965#post1935965

What Reed did, in my own words.

Reed was stressed and concerned when he walked into work that morning , 07/21/1969. And his consternation grew given SELECT's not having a solid landing site recommendation for the FIDO. Then to make matters all the worse, Reed overdid it with the coffee, 3 big cups. He dashed off to the NASA outhouse and like all Apollo staff, pooped in a bag. It was a camaraderie thing.

just kiddin'

Here ya' go Kiwi9.......


Reed worked with SELECT and DYNAMICS to determine the geometry of, and ignition time for, the Eagle launch and its return to the CSM.

He claimed it should have been a "piece of cake really", that is, were he to have had the landing coordinates and a solid ephemeris on the CSM.

Not having the former, he determined the Eagle/CSM relation by way of running a rendezvous radar solution in reverse. Having done that, he had the requisite "relative geometry" and could make a recommendation for the simulated mission's launch time as well.

The Eagle to Columbia simulated rendezvous went off without a hitch, thanks to Reed.

How'd I do Kiwi9?

 

[Patrick1000]

Simple question

Patrick is the only one here who doesn't understand the star visibility issue. Or at least pretends not to understand.

Imagine being so desperate that after 74 pages of failure you would post such a long, long shaggy dog story merely to regurgitate the imbecilic "where were the stars" gambit.

Brevity is the soul of wit. The wall of text above is witless.

OK Jack by the hedge, simple question;

Did the Apollo 11 astronauts see, or did they not see, stars from the surface of the moon?