Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
[imgl]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_151444c92c0491e66a.jpg[/imgl]
The scuff marks were visible on the only high resolution photo of that wall that we have

This is one of the photos of the defense lawyer climbing the wall. It was taken well after the murder so there is really no way to say those scuffs were created during the crime. In contrast, the prosecution has no evidence showing that those scuff marks did not exist immediately after the crime.

This same image was used by the prosecution to say that there was a nail in the wall that survived being bent by the supposed climber as part of their proof that there was no break-in. The circle on the left marks a spot where a nail was broken out of the brick. Is this proof that there was a break-in then.
 
I would totally agree that this is a plausible theory, and so is a theory that might have Guede knocking on the upstairs door and asking Meredith a) if the boys downstairs were around, then b) if they weren't around, if he could quickly use the toilet. And either of these theories would still leave the possibility of Guede himself staging a break-in after the murder - in an attempt to throw attention away from anyone whom Meredith might have felt comfortable letting into the cottage at that time of night when she was alone (i.e. a male who was known to Meredith).
-

While Rudy "staging" the break-in has always been an interesting theory (in theory) and also an interesting discussion in itself, I find it equally interesting that many pro-guilters find it plausible that Rudy, Amanda, and Raffaele knew each other well enough to plan a sex game together, but at the same time find it implausible that Rudy (as the lone gunman) "staged" the break-in because there was no need, because no one would suspect him to begin with and thus no need to throw anyone off his trail by "staging" said break-in.

If he knew Meredith or Amanda as well as some pro-guilters think, than it is within the realm of reality that he might have been worried that they would suspect him, especially if he really had made a "date" (or appointment) with Meredith. How could he know for sure that she didn't tell anyone about this date (or appointment).

Does this make sense?

Dave
 
[imgl]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_151444c92c0491e66a.jpg[/imgl]
The scuff marks were visible on the only high resolution photo of that wall that we have

This is one of the photos of the defense lawyer climbing the wall. It was taken well after the murder so there is really no way to say those scuffs were created during the crime. In contrast, the prosecution has no evidence showing that those scuff marks did not exist immediately after the crime.

This same image was used by the prosecution to say that there was a nail in the wall that survived being bent by the supposed climber as part of their proof that there was no break-in. The circle on the left marks a spot where a nail was broken out of the brick. Is this proof that there was a break-in then.


I think it's worth pointing out that an athletic man scaling the wall to Filomena's window sill would almost certainly have been able to lever himself up by his arms without ever even needing to place a proper foothold on the wall between the lower window and Filomena's window. The distances involved here really are not very great - despite some claims to the contrary that you "have to go there to see how near-impossible the climb is, it's perfectly easy to make a reasoned judgement about the distances and ease of climb by looking at photos and knowing the basic measurements.

If Guede was standing on the grate of the lower window, he could have easily reached up with one hand to grasp the sill of Filomena's Window, then placed both hands flat onto the sill, and used his arm strength to lever his entire body up until his hips were level with the sill. At that point, he could have either rotated his hips so that he sat on the sill facing outwards with his legs dangling over the edge, or he could have swung his legs round onto the sill and moved into a crouching position on the sill.
 
Even if the murder were as late as 11.45, Knox and Sollecito still had hours to plan out what to do and say so as to distance themselves from the entire affair. Does anyone think the farcical running around on the morning of 2nd November bears any relation to a plan that might have been thought up by two people not actually mentally handicapped and with several hours to think about it?

This part of the prosecution narrative always bugged me. Why return to the crime scene that morning at all? Why wouldn't they just take that day trip as planned, giving them more time to get their stories straight? If they had time that night to clean up in the bathroom, stage a break-in and move the body then why not give someone else the chance to discover the crime? Even Rudy put more effort into developing a post-crime narrative (going clubbing, telling friends he was going to Milan to party). Certainly two killers who have the presence of mind to stage the crime scene would put some thought into not appearing suspicious afterwards.
 
They were a similar group of young women, to some degree. It could have been any of them. It's just chance we're here discussing how Amanda has been railroaded for Meredith's murder. We could just as easily be discussing how Meredith was railroaded for Amanda's murder.

Rolfe.

It seems to me as well they weren't all that dissimilar, Meredith more of a rock-n-roller, Amanda more of a hippy-chick. Meredith had actually been in a rock video, it's available online somewhere. In my hometown one would have been the sort to close down the Kollege Klub and go out for gyros, the other more inclined to hike through the arboretum until it hit the Beltline, get all smoked up, and walk through the tunnel for a 'spiritual experience.' Then both come home and go skinny-dipping in the lake if they lived in Liz Waters or Lakeshore.
 
-

While Rudy "staging" the break-in has always been an interesting theory (in theory) and also an interesting discussion in itself, I find it equally interesting that many pro-guilters find it plausible that Rudy, Amanda, and Raffaele knew each other well enough to plan a sex game together, but at the same time find it implausible that Rudy (as the lone gunman) "staged" the break-in because there was no need, because no one would suspect him to begin with and thus no need to throw anyone off his trail by "staging" said break-in.

If he knew Meredith or Amanda as well as some pro-guilters think, than it is within the realm of reality that he might have been worried that they would suspect him, especially if he really had made a "date" (or appointment) with Meredith. How could he know for sure that she didn't tell anyone about this date (or appointment).

Does this make sense?

Dave


Yes, it makes perfect sense and I totally agree. Especially if, as you say, Guede had made some sort of appointment to meet Meredith. In such a scenario, there would be a very compelling reason for Guede think that he might benefit from staging a burglary: he would think that could either claim that he didn't turn up for this appointment, or that he did go to the cottage and met with Meredith, but that he left within half an hour or so. He would then be able to claim that a totally different person had broken into the flat and murdered Meredith.

Similarly, there's still potential motivation for Guede to stage a break-in if he simply turned up and knocked on the door without any appointment having been made or discussed, and Meredith let him in. As I wrote before, Guede would probably realise that if the police concluded that Meredith let her killer in through the front door, then Meredith knew her killer (at least by sight), and that this would therefore vastly narrow down the number of potential suspects.

But anyhow, I believe that this discussion is essentially moot: I think the break-in was real, and that Guede broke into the cottage with the intention of stealing cash and valuables. But it's certainly worth considering these other options, if for no other reason than to demonstrate that even if the break-in could be proven to have been staged (which can't be proven of course), this doesn't automatically mean that it must have been Knox/Sollecito doing the staging.
 
The scuff marks were visible on the only high resolution photo of that wall that we have

This is one of the photos of the defense lawyer climbing the wall. It was taken well after the murder so there is really no way to say those scuffs were created during the crime. In contrast, the prosecution has no evidence showing that those scuff marks did not exist immediately after the crime.

This same image was used by the prosecution to say that there was a nail in the wall that survived being bent by the supposed climber as part of their proof that there was no break-in. The circle on the left marks a spot where a nail was broken out of the brick. Is this proof that there was a break-in then.
-

Thanks Dan,

here is a link to the photo I might have been thinking of with an arrow pointing to an interesting discoloration:
http://www.injusticeinperugia.com/rh80.jpg

Here is the caption associated with the above photo:
"In the photo above, the arrow locates a lighter section of the window frame casing edge suggesting possible recent scrubbing contact. This is about the best photo that has surfaced of the area directly under Filomena’s window. No closeups of the window frame area highlighted by the arrow were apparently taken during the police investigation... "

Dave
 
It seems to me as well they weren't all that dissimilar, Meredith more of a rock-n-roller, Amanda more of a hippy-chick. Meredith had actually been in a rock video, it's available online somewhere. In my hometown one would have been the sort to close down the Kollege Klub and go out for gyros, the other more inclined to hike through the arboretum until it hit the Beltline, get all smoked up, and walk through the tunnel for a 'spiritual experience.' Then both come home and go skinny-dipping in the lake if they lived in Liz Waters or Lakeshore.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q15O-rRdQM

(Closer to soul/r&b/pop than rock)
 
If he knew Meredith or Amanda as well as some pro-guilters think, than it is within the realm of reality that he might have been worried that they would suspect him, especially if he really had made a "date" (or appointment) with Meredith. How could he know for sure that she didn't tell anyone about this date (or appointment).

That's been my point. I'm making the case that a staged break-in does not mean it had to be someone from the cottage. I have no idea if Rudy had a real or pretend date (appointment) with Meredith but it is as plausible as the PG theories.

Meredith was a fun young woman that was no prude and enjoyed life. Google "Nadeau Meredith" go to the book Angel Face and search it for "public"'
 
Interesting article in today's (Sunday's) Observer newspaper here in UK (the Observer is the Sunday sister title of The Guardian):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/18/amanda-knox-awaits-verdict

Contains an illuminating quote from Sollecito lawyer Luca Maori:

"If there is an acquittal, there are four or five officers here who could be demoted to directing traffic, while action should be taken against magistrates who spent millions on this case," said Luca Maori, a lawyer who is defending Sollecito.


I couldn't agree more. Let's see if something like this actually happens after the acquittals.
 
Similarly, there's still potential motivation for Guede to stage a break-in if he simply turned up and knocked on the door without any appointment having been made or discussed, and Meredith let him in. As I wrote before, Guede would probably realise that if the police concluded that Meredith let her killer in through the front door, then Meredith knew her killer (at least by sight), and that this would therefore vastly narrow down the number of potential suspects.

No I don't agree. There would be so many people that knew her that Rudy wouldn't worry about it.

Personally I think Rudy threw the rock and Meredith came home while he was waiting to see if anybody would notice.
 
The Moderating Team is receiving several reports a day of off-topic posts in this thread. For clarification, please see this post for the current policy of the Mod Team regarding this thread.

This policy has been developed in the hopes of advancing debate and is subject to change if that aspiration is not being met.

Thanks.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Loss Leader
 
-

Thanks John for sharing,

I don't mean this in a bad way, but that was so spooky and surreal and sad and also so very very beautiful and such a nice tribute.

Than some low-life proboscis had to turn it into a mean-spirited... arrrgh... sorry but that cr*p was uncalled for,

Dave

P.S. not to be nit picky LJ, but R&B and Rock both have their roots in Gospel and Blues, although Rock also has additional roots in Country and Western, believe it or not.
 
No I don't agree. There would be so many people that knew her that Rudy wouldn't worry about it.

Personally I think Rudy threw the rock and Meredith came home while he was waiting to see if anybody would notice.


"So many people" in Meredith's six weeks of being in Perugia? And not only that, you can pretty much eliminate every female Knox knew, so Meredith's circle of Perugia acquaintances is more than halved at a stroke (assuming she had more female acquaintances than male). Next, it was a public holiday with religious/family associations, so many students were away from Perugia at their families' homes that night. So in fact there were probably only a very small number of males who were known to Meredith, who were in Perugia that night and who didn'r have a good alibi. Guede would have quickly and easily been able to reason this out.

But I agree with you that this is purely a hypothetical discussion, because Guede threw the rock from the outside before the confrontation/murder. However, I disagree with your opinion that Meredith came back before Guede had the chance to enter through the window. There are two main reasons for my disagreement: firstly, if Meredith arrived home at that point, she would almost certainly have seen the broken window (the exterior shutters would, by definition, almost certainly have been open at that point, exposing the broken pane). I think that she would have wanted to make phone calls immediately (to the other girls and/or the police), and might not even have been happy entering the cottage - even if Guede offered to be her "protector". And secondly, the broken window shows clear signs of someone removing addition glass up the side of the frame in order to be able to access the catch.

Therefore I think that Guede did indeed scale the wall again, remove this glass, unlatch the window and enter Filomena's room. I think that once he was inside the room he almost certainly pulled the exterior shutters back inwards, in order to conceal the broken window from anyone outside the cottage. That's also why it makes sense that Meredith didn't think anything was amiss when she returned home at 9pm: all she would have seen as she approached the cottage would have been Filomena's exterior shutters.

And that actually leads me to something else that I haven't thought of before now. If Guede indeed entered via Filomena's window, then went to the fridge to get a drink before going to the bathroom to defecate, then it's entirely likely that he might have left Filomena's door open (he wasn't expecting to be interrupted inside the cottage after all - all he would have been concerned with was concealing his presence from anyone outside the cottage). So it's entirely possible that Meredith came home while Guede was on the toilet, grabbed a mushroom from the fridge, and headed towards her room. But at this point, Meredith would have had to pass right by Filomena's bedroom door; it's entirely possible that Meredith would have glanced into Filomena's room (if the door was left open by Guede), and noticed the broken glass. She might then have either made some sort of exclamation of shock and fear, or she might have called out for anyone who was there to get out. At that point, Guede would have had little option but to jump off the toilet without flushing and confront Meredith - who would have been essentially standing between him and his escape route.

In addition, if this is what actually happened, it fits in slightly better with Guede's movements after the murder. If he never tried the front door before the murder, he probably wouldn't have known that a key was needed to open it from the inside. Therefore the bloody shoeprints leading towards the front door might have been from Guede's first attempt to leave the cottage. As soon as he reached the door and tried to open it, he'd have found out that a key was needed. This therefore necessitated another return to Meredith's room, in order to search through her bag for her keys. After locating the keys, Guede left Meredith's room for the last time, this time with no blood on the sole of his shoe. He paused to lock Meredith's door with the new-found keys (in order to delay discovery and give him more time to try to establish an alibi), and exited via the front door.

Just a thought......
 
The Moderating Team is receiving several reports a day of off-topic posts in this thread. For clarification, please see this post for the current policy of the Mod Team regarding this thread.

This policy has been developed in the hopes of advancing debate and is subject to change if that aspiration is not being met.

Thanks.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Loss Leader


Thank you. Many of us have been proposing the idea that it is entirely reasonable to address arguments/opinions/discussions on other areas of the internet that relate to this case - provided that these non-JREF writings are referenced here for the primary purpose of examination, rebuttal or agreement. Your latitude in allowing such activity is welcomed. And I hope that those who seem so eager to press the report button <snip> now understand the situation, to the benefit of all concerned. Thanks.


Edited by Loss Leader: 
Edited for Rule 0.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hi Fuji, you recently wrote this: "This is an obviously photoshopped image. Look at the dark shadow along the entirety of the pictures of Shay and Fischer - there is no way that that image was produced by an individual actually standing in front of these two people using a camera with a flash, which is what is presumably intended to be perceived by the audience. Pay particular note to the dark patches to the immediate left of Fischer's head and to his lower right. How the hell is a flash camera, from a straight-on angle, simultaneously not going to illuminate these fields on the wall ostensibly behind the pair? Also note that the background is, in general, quite well illuminated in respect to the foreground. This looks like some crappy failed entry in SomethingAwful's"


This is a perfect example of what goes on at PMF. The truth is of little importance. Like Peggy Ganong likes to say, just post is up and see what the reaction is. Why on earth would I photoshop a picture with Steve Shay? Please tell me what the benefit would be? I am not angry about your accusation, I find it hilarious.

The truth is that my wife took the photo that you claim is photoshopped but only after my daughter tried out Shay's camera. Problem was, when she took the photo we were photo bombed by a wise guy!

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/8qk5X.jpg[/qimg]

Hi Bruce. What equipment did your wife use to take the picture recently linked to on PMF, of you and Steve Shay in front of Gino's East, that you have oh-so-playfully altered here to include Mr. Squarepants? Was she using auto settings? If not, do you know what f-stop and shutter speed she used? Was it photoshopped or substantially altered in any way before you posted it to Facebook? I see you have made light of the issue here, but I have yet to see any denial from you that this is in fact a photoshopped image.
 
"So many people" in Meredith's six weeks of being in Perugia? And not only that, you can pretty much eliminate every female Knox knew, so Meredith's circle of Perugia acquaintances is more than halved at a stroke (assuming she had more female acquaintances than male). Next, it was a public holiday with religious/family associations, so many students were away from Perugia at their families' homes that night. So in fact there were probably only a very small number of males who were known to Meredith, who were in Perugia that night and who didn'r have a good alibi. Guede would have quickly and easily been able to reason this out.

But I agree with you that this is purely a hypothetical discussion, because Guede threw the rock from the outside before the confrontation/murder. However, I disagree with your opinion that Meredith came back before Guede had the chance to enter through the window. There are two main reasons for my disagreement: firstly, if Meredith arrived home at that point, she would almost certainly have seen the broken window (the exterior shutters would, by definition, almost certainly have been open at that point, exposing the broken pane). I think that she would have wanted to make phone calls immediately (to the other girls and/or the police), and might not even have been happy entering the cottage - even if Guede offered to be her "protector". And secondly, the broken window shows clear signs of someone removing addition glass up the side of the frame in order to be able to access the catch.

Therefore I think that Guede did indeed scale the wall again, remove this glass, unlatch the window and enter Filomena's room. I think that once he was inside the room he almost certainly pulled the exterior shutters back inwards, in order to conceal the broken window from anyone outside the cottage. That's also why it makes sense that Meredith didn't think anything was amiss when she returned home at 9pm: all she would have seen as she approached the cottage would have been Filomena's exterior shutters.

And that actually leads me to something else that I haven't thought of before now. If Guede indeed entered via Filomena's window, then went to the fridge to get a drink before going to the bathroom to defecate, then it's entirely likely that he might have left Filomena's door open (he wasn't expecting to be interrupted inside the cottage after all - all he would have been concerned with was concealing his presence from anyone outside the cottage). So it's entirely possible that Meredith came home while Guede was on the toilet, grabbed a mushroom from the fridge, and headed towards her room. But at this point, Meredith would have had to pass right by Filomena's bedroom door; it's entirely possible that Meredith would have glanced into Filomena's room (if the door was left open by Guede), and noticed the broken glass. She might then have either made some sort of exclamation of shock and fear, or she might have called out for anyone who was there to get out. At that point, Guede would have had little option but to jump off the toilet without flushing and confront Meredith - who would have been essentially standing between him and his escape route.

In addition, if this is what actually happened, it fits in slightly better with Guede's movements after the murder. If he never tried the front door before the murder, he probably wouldn't have known that a key was needed to open it from the inside. Therefore the bloody shoeprints leading towards the front door might have been from Guede's first attempt to leave the cottage. As soon as he reached the door and tried to open it, he'd have found out that a key was needed. This therefore necessitated another return to Meredith's room, in order to search through her bag for her keys. After locating the keys, Guede left Meredith's room for the last time, this time with no blood on the sole of his shoe. He paused to lock Meredith's door with the new-found keys (in order to delay discovery and give him more time to try to establish an alibi), and exited via the front door.

Just a thought......

And a good one. I think that your new analysis is likely what happened, except that I am not sure about whether Rudy left Filomena's door open, or not. I think that, given the evidence, the most likely scenario is that Rudy broke in via the window, then went to the kitchen, had his drink, went to the can, and was surprised and trapped when Meredith came home. The question is, did she either notice him in the bathroom (he could have left the door open, thinking he was alone, and it was right near the front door), or see the broken glass, or simply not see him at first, and he came out and attacked her later? To me, the scenario you detail above is very plausible, because it also potentially explains the whole killing. It also explains why he did not flush, because either had to get up quickly, or, if she did not see the broken glass, may have tried to sneak out quietly.

Much as I think that Rudy was a slimeball that killed a young woman, the idea that he came there with the idea of raping and killing her and leaving her in a messy pool of blood has never made sense to me. Neither does the "he had a date with Meredith" scenario. So it logically follows that something went wrong. It also doesn't totally make sense to me that, as some have claimed, that Guede broke in and then waited for Meredith to come home so he could attack her. I think it is much more likely that he broke in, thinking he would hang out there, find some stuff to steal, and enjoy the feeling of being in the flat of these pretty girls, maybe even look through some of their "private" stuff for a thrill. Then, while he was on the can, Meredith came home. The part that I can't quite decide is, does it make more sense that she discovered either Guede or the window broken immediately, or did she go to her room, then come back and find him trying to leave? Or, did he see her, get excited at the prospect that she was there, and go to her room and try to force her to have sex with him? My current thought is that the "she discovered him" scenario is more likely. If she came home and did not see him or the window right away, it seems likely he would have tried to sneak out.
 
Hi Bruce. What equipment did your wife use to take the picture recently linked to on PMF, of you and Steve Shay in front of Gino's East, that you have oh-so-playfully altered here to include Mr. Squarepants? Was she using auto settings? If not, do you know what f-stop and shutter speed she used? Was it photoshopped or substantially altered in any way before you posted it to Facebook? I see you have made light of the issue here, but I have yet to see any denial from you that this is in fact a photoshopped image.
-

Here's Steve Shay's e-addy (from the West Seattle Herald website):
steves@robinsonnews.com
 
Last edited:
Peggy ("I'm Skeptical Bystander and you're not", what is that about?) has just banned the latest incursion into the guilter circle-jerk.

Perhaps Ms. Ganong was a fan of "Saturday Night Live"? The "Weekend Update" segment used to end with the buffoonish tag-line "I'm Chevy Chase...and you're not". The CBC radio comedy group "Double Exposure" used a similar line to poke fun at that networks arts commentator, Adrienne Clarkson.

This suggests that Ms. Ganong may have some capacity for intentional mild self-parody. As to her capacity for unintentional self-parody..well, readers of PMF may judge for themselves...
 
LJ - thanks for responding to one of my posts directly, rather than responding to the post responding to mine.

Alas, my objective of getting people not to focus so much on the "staged" break-in back-fired.

Meredith would most likely not notice the broken window if Filomena's lights weren't on. It is truly amazing what people don't notice. She would have been focusing on strangers on the road and by the cottage or just beat from a long holiday.

Meredith went out with Amanda, the English girls, met people at school, probably met others with her BF and other random events including clubbing so I doubt the cops, especially these cops would have narrowed it down. It doesn't really matter anyway.

My point was and is: It is more likely Rudy broke the window either to test, to actually break-in or to stage.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom