Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Jeeez...... a forum supposedly dedicated to "fighting for justice for Meredith" has spent a large chunk of today discussing a photo of a man who runs a pro-acquittal website standing outside a pizza restaurant in the outskirts of Chicago, in the company of a journalist from a Seattle local newspaper. The discussion has touched upon whether the photograph has been digitally altered, and whether the two men in question are too overweight to be eating pizza. The woman who runs the forum is not only complicit in this little exercise, she's actually an active and enthusiastic participant in the discussion. I feel sure that Meredith would be so proud of what's being "done in her memory"....
 
Thanks LJ
Perhaps you can help with another question. Do you know if any investigation was ever launched in regards to Patrick's interrogation? He was definitely a suspect, as he was arrested. No lawer was allowed to represent him. That alone warrants some sort of investigation.Also no recording of the interrogation. Go figure.
 
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I got slightly carried away over at WS (not just me I hasten to add), and the thread has been deep-storaged for review. One thing I highlighted there was the amount of stuff the prosecution simply asserted without presenting evidence, that they seemed to imagine the court would just accept unquestioningly.

What really caused me to notice was the way Fulcanelli latched on to these points and repeated them as unquestionable fact, on the grounds that they'd been attested to in court under oath. But most of them look like lies to me. I'm not sure I can remember them all, but I'll try.

  • The negative controls, that first didn't exist because Stefanoni would no more document them than she'd document washing her hands, which were then claimed to have been presented to the court with the original evidence bundle but which turned out not to have been, then a set of documents was hurriedly produced which had the wrong date and the wrong serial numbers, then later a better set was produced, "found in the garage".
Does anyone believe this (with the possible exception of Funcanelli)? It elevates "the dog ate my homework" into the realms of subtle deception.
  • The "quarantine" gaps before the knife and bra clasp were analysed.
This assertion seems to be contradicted by the dates and times given earlier for some of the analyses - it would be handy to have some more detail on this.
  • The absence of contamination with Meredith's profile on other samples run before the knife. Would these be from this case or other cases?
Unless these samples were run at the very high sensitivity settings used for the knife, and were samples that didn't have Meredith's DNA on them anyway, such contamination wouldn't be seen even if it was there. No such evidence seems to have been presented to the court, and the implication is that Novelli had evidence not seen by the court. In any case, since the knife results suggest only about one in ten such samples seems to have been so contaminated anyway. How many did Novelli look at?
  • The magic plastic bags that are suitable for storing material for DNA analysis, suddenly dreamed up by Stefanoni to excuse her ruining the bra clasp even though she had previously stated that plastic was unsuitable.
For a start, she didn't say certified in what way. They could have been certified airtight, or 0.4mm gauge, or just about anything irrelevant. Anyway, there are no such US-certified polythene bags suitable for this purpose, because plastic is not suitable, end of. See this link. http://www.dna.gov/audiences/investigators/know/collection "Put evidence into new paper bags or envelopes, not into plastic bags. [...] Never place evidence that may contain DNA in plastic bags because plastic bags will retain damaging moisture." And if these bags were so great, how come the bra clasp rusted exactly as one would predict if using a non-magic poly bag?
  • The statement about it being OK because the bags were placed in the freezer (or fridge).
This is absolute nonsense, putting such bags in the fridge is the worst thing you can possibly do, as it massively increases the condensation problem. See the same link again. "When transporting and storing evidence that may contain DNA, it is important to keep the evidence dry and at room temperature."
The impression I get is that these witnesses, particularly Stefanoni, are quite prepared to say anything that comes into their head, even on oath. And that includes bare-faced lying. Fabricated negative controls, magic poly bags, non-existent six-day gaps, anything.

There ought to be an inquiry into this, but I don't expect that will happen.

Rolfe.
 
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Libel is tough to prove. Harder when the alleged libel is against a public person.

From Wiki: There are several ways a person must go about proving that libel has taken place. For example, in the United States, the person first must prove that the statement was false. Second, that person must prove that the statement caused harm. And, third, they must prove that the statement was made without adequate research into the truthfulness of the statement. These steps are for an ordinary citizen. In the case of a celebrity or public official trying to prove libel, they must prove the first three steps, and must (in the United States) prove the statement was made with the intent to do harm, or with reckless disregard for the truth. Usually specifically referred to as "proving malice".
 
All this stuff about who has a PhD....

This week we had a third-year vet student doing EMS in our lab. Nice kid, and I didn't question her age as it seemed about right for a third-year - about twenty. Then, I was tidying my office (it was a slack day) and happened to remark to her that I was going to look for a bookbinder to get some journal back issues bound. She immediately recommended the firm whose web site I'd found, saying they did a good job on her PhD thesis.

:faint:

Turned out she hadn't just clawed her way up through agricultural college to get a BSc to present as entrance requirements for vet school, she'd gone all the way to a PhD. Just to get into vet school. She must have been at least 26 or 27, I didn't ask.

I feel very lucky, I just filled in the UCCA form when I was in 5th year and they offered me a place. I also feel very, very, very old....

Rolfe.
 
Stilicho has just posted thefollowing on PMF.org. "She" is me.

She didn't familiarise herself with much of anything. I asked her in PM whether there might have been any information missing from her assessment (such as access to the details of the autopsy) and she said she couldn't wait around for information to appear before making her conclusions. This is not how scientists operate.

She is likely qualified to comment. It's her decision to arrive at conclusions without access to primary sources and ignoring all the scientific literature that states stomach contents are not accurate in time-of-death analysis. I asked her whether she had vetted her professional opinion with a forensic pathologist.


This is at best wildly distorted, and much of it is completely fabricated. I refuse to get into a pathology debate with someone with such a clear and biassed agenda, and such a profound ignorance of the basic issues being discussed.

Rolfe.
 
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I see that Fuji still hasn't countered the argument that Amanda took a shower in her own flat because she needed her own clothes and other stuff to get ready for the day. I'd like to thank Fuji for his too-cold-to-shower-easier-to-shower-at-Raffaele's theory as it really brings home how desperate the guilters' theories are. I was thinking they might have something better than that? It seems not. The people on PMF are probably paid by the Knox PR machine to act as shills waging ridiculous arguments that are so bad that newcomers to this case choose innocence! :)
 
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Good point. I'm sitting here cold. I'm going to take a nice hot shower in nice hot water. That will warm me up beautifully. See you later.... :D

Rolfe.
 
LJ,

It was I that started the Rudy might have had a date with Meredith discussion here recently. Cody replied.

I can't find my original post but what I said was that it should be considered that Rudy may have made a date or thought that he made a date with Meredith the night before the murder. I pointed out that the English girls and Meredith may well have been altered and that it has been reported that one of the English girls had been fall down drunk on another occasion (thoughtful's translation of Shaky's court testimony) and Barbie has reported that Meredith had been cited for public intoxication in England. I made it clear that I had no moral issues with any of their behavior. My point was that it is possible the English girls missed Rudy asking or that Rudy had created in his mind that he had this date.

It is also possible to me that Meredith could have had some interest in Rudy, not necessarily sexual but forever what reason might want to hang with him.

My main point was that this possibility shouldn't be excluded from the conversation because Meredith couldn't possibly have any interest in Rudy according to the PGP.

I also pointed out that when Amanda supporters say that Rudy was a drifter, drug dealing and burglar - PGP say that there is no proof of such. Yet they insist Meredith would have nothing to do with this friend of her BF because of his bad character.

I'll look for the original.
 
I see that Fuji still hasn't countered the argument that Amanda took a shower in her own flat because she needed her own clothes and other stuff to get ready for the day. I'd like to thank Fuji for his too-cold-to-shower-easier-to-shower-at-Raffaele's theory as it really brings home how desperate the guilters' theories are. I was thinking they might have something better than that? It seems not. The people on PMF are probably paid by the Knox PR machine to act as shills waging ridiculous arguments that are so bad that newcomers to this case choose innocence! :)


On a more serious note, the whole thing is ridiculous. Knox is supposed to have been involved in a gory murder, and the proof is she says she took a shower but didn't?

At least Fuji isn't asserting that the bathroom was a bloodbath, as some still are due to the deliberately misleading photo the police released (which Fulcanelli says must be genuine because the police obviously would never take and release a misleading photo....)

Even if the murder were as late as 11.45, Knox and Sollecito still had hours to plan out what to do and say so as to distance themselves from the entire affair. Does anyone think the farcical running around on the morning of 2nd November bears any relation to a plan that might have been thought up by two people not actually mentally handicapped and with several hours to think about it?

Rolfe.
 
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I also pointed out that when Amanda supporters say that Rudy was a drifter, drug dealing and burglar - PGP say that there is no proof of such. Yet they insist Meredith would have nothing to do with this friend of her BF because of his bad character.


Even if Rudy were all that and more, there's no real reason Meredith would have known. Rudy came from a "good home", apparently. I've noticed several posters state that any suggestion Meredith might have had a genuine liaison with Rudy is a foul slander on their sainted angel girl.

Why? Meredith was new in Perugia, she wasn't necessarily to know everybody's background, or that there was anything wrong with Rudy. I think these howls of outrage are simple racism.

Rolfe.
 
Peggy ("I'm Skeptical Bystander and you're not", what is that about?) has just banned the latest incursion into the guilter circle-jerk. It's just like the homoeopaths. They can't counter the arguments with logic and reason, and they're reduced to banning everyone who disagrees with them.

Rolfe.
 
I'll look for the original.

Is this the one you are looking for?


ETA: In all the posts in all the threads, you are the first to use the phrase "date with Meredith" as a positive belief. Of course, Rudy came up with it in the first place so I can't give you credit for the creation.
 
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Yeah, I thought I mentioned that upthread. The heavy suspicion that stint7 is actually someone who posts here under a different name, and has been playing the victim as regards moderator bias when he's really only intent on incisive commentary on the case, doesn't play well I have to say.

If stint7 really is a JREF member who runs to another forum not simply to repost material honestly for discussion but to post deliberate and malicious distortions, then this really is not good.

Rolfe.

There is absolutely no doubt that this is the case but any attempt at mentioning names here causes the JREF member that plays the multiple characters to complain to JREF causing those pointing out the facts to receive warnings from JREF.

The Sybil like poster then runs back to PMF letting them know we were warned. I wonder why someone in their later years would want to act so childish. I am hoping to be able to relax at that point.
 
more on the debate at websleuths

Good point. I'm sitting here cold. I'm going to take a nice hot shower in nice hot water. That will warm me up beautifully. See you later.... :D

Rolfe.
Rolfe,

I also recall that Fulcanelli asserted that the control experiment information was given to Judge Micheli. I have lost count of how many stories there are. Even if this were true, is Micheli supposed to understand them? It makes far more sense for other experts to examine them.
 
unlikely

Why? Meredith was new in Perugia, she wasn't necessarily to know everybody's background, or that there was anything wrong with Rudy. I think these howls of outrage are simple racism.

Rolfe.
Rolfe,

Meredith had a boyfriend (Giacomo), and in a conversation among the flatmates she indicated that she believed in fidelity. I cannot remember all of the details offhand, but I am sure that someone else does (I'll look around for the citation if asked). Based on this conversation, I think that a romantic interest in Rudy on her part is unlikely.
 
Fuji Where did you go?

Fugi is positive that I took the time to photoshop a picture with Steve Shay. I find this hilarious.

Fuji writes: "I agree that the motive for such photoshopping is unclear, but I am adamant that that is a photoshopped picture. Explicitly stated, the image as presented is not the result of someone of taking a picture of Messieurs Shay et Fischer in front of Gino's Pizza Parlor. It is a composite image. Re: stilicho - it is not a result of image compression. Compression reduces resolution, but does not alter the base light/dark contrast as shown in this image.

I know this is small potatoes in the big picture of things (i.e. securing justice for Meredith), but - to me - it is emblematic of a fundamental dishonesty at root of the online campaign to free these two lying murderers.

Piktor - I know that you are an expert in manipulating digital images (I mean that as a sincere compliment - many of your montages have brought a smile to my face). What say you regarding this image - does it pass the sniff test?"


Piktor, come on, what do you think? You are an expert in manipulation.
 
Rolfe,

Meredith had a boyfriend (Giacomo), and in a conversation among the flatmates she indicated that she believed in fidelity. I cannot remember all of the details offhand, but I am sure that someone else does (I'll look around for the citation if asked). Based on this conversation, I think that a romantic interest in Rudy on her part is unlikely.


Yes, I can see that. But I don't think anyone was necessarily proposing a romantic interest on her part. He might have fancied his chances, and proposed what seemed like a platonic meeting - then chanced his luck, and matters escalated.

Did I see someone say that Meredith had been done for drunk and disorderly in England? It's not armed robbery, but it's not exactly the norm either. And she was sexually active with the Italian boy, whom she had recently met. Nothing desperately wrong with any of that, but it doesn't fit with the idea that Meredith was always behaving like a saint (which supposedly riled up Amanda), or the suggestion that she wasn't used to drink and her indulgences on Hallowe'en night were something she was unused to.

I'm sure she was a very nice girl, everyone seems to agree on that, and I suspect she was a lot better company than Amanda, and de mortuis nil nisi bonum and all that, but the hagiography that's going on is a bit over the top. Ordinary, average nice girls get murdered too, sometimes.

Rolfe.
 
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