Question to truthers

Miragememories said:
I concur with Bill Smith in my reaction to 9/11.

It was not at all difficult.

Like most of the general public, I was pre-conditioned to immediately believe that Osama Bin Laden and his Al Qaeda terrorist organization were responsible.

The controlled demolition collapse of WTC7 compelled me to think otherwise, and draw the conclusion that not all of the 9/11 terrorists had been accounted for.

MM
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If WTC7 was an obvious CD, why wasn't its collapse immediately preceded by a rapid series of many deafening booms (easily heard from up to a 1/2 mile away) that would signal explosives going off?
 
AndrewBurley said:
How do you know it wasn't?
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Because:

1) noone reported it back then, especially the FDNY who were the closest to the scene all day until the collapse, and who knew it was coming

2) We have dozens of videos taken from the day, so we don't have to rely on our own memories, and it's not in any of those (if it happened, it should be present in ALL of them, btw, if they were taken within a 1/2 mile of building 7 and the camera had a microphone).
 
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AndrewBurley said:
If the collapses were expected why did the FDNY have staging posts at the bases of the towers and have firefighters up as high as the 78th floor at the time of the first collapse?
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Amazingly enough, some things are known now which were not known in the 73 minutes they had that morning - like how extensive the damage from the planes was and what effect the fire was having on the various components. The firefighters may not have realized WTC 2 would collapse or how soon. They did the best they could to do their jobs in a terrifying situation.

What would you have done?
 
AndrewBurley said:
If a collapse is expected firefighters don't enter. When wtc 2 collapsed they immediately evacuated wtc 1. They pulled all their men from wtc 7 and made a collapse zone when they suspected it would collapse.
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It's not as cut and dry as you are stating. We will enter a structure that is showing no outward appearance of collapsing to assess the conditions inside, to help evacuate, find the injured, etc. Only then will a decision be made to abandon a structure.

The conditions on the affected floors in the towers was not immediately known. The calls coming into 911 from the towers were not being relayed to the first responders. The firefighters had to try and get that info first hand. This is all discussed at length in the 911CR. I'm guessing you didn't read that, neither.

Once WTC2 collapsed, the evacuation of WTC1 was ordered...however, the radio repeater system failed. Unfortunately, I fear that even if the word got to the firefighters to evacuate WTC1, many of them would not have left in time...whether it be that they had to descend 90+ floors in less than 30 minutes, or they would have taken their time to rescue as many civilians as possible.

They did not make the same mistakes with WTC7. Once everyone was evacuated, they set up a perimeter.

They did not expect the towers to collapse before the south tower did.
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Only due to the lack of information as noted above. The firefighters never really got a chance to properly assess the conditions on the affected floors. It seems as most of the operations involved getting people away from those floors. Had 911 operators relayed key bits of info to the ICP, we may have not lost 343 fireman that day.
 
Sabretooth said:
It's not as cut and dry as you are stating. We will enter a structure that is showing no outward appearance of collapsing to assess the conditions inside, to help evacuate, find the injured, etc. Only then will a decision be made to abandon a structure.

The conditions on the affected floors in the towers was not immediately known. The calls coming into 911 from the towers were not being relayed to the first responders. The firefighters had to try and get that info first hand. This is all discussed at length in the 911CR. I'm guessing you didn't read that, neither.

Once WTC2 collapsed, the evacuation of WTC1 was ordered...however, the radio repeater system failed. Unfortunately, I fear that even if the word got to the firefighters to evacuate WTC1, many of them would not have left in time...whether it be that they had to descend 90+ floors in less than 30 minutes, or they would have taken their time to rescue as many civilians as possible.

They did not make the same mistakes with WTC7. Once everyone was evacuated, they set up a perimeter.


Only due to the lack of information as noted above. The firefighters never really got a chance to properly assess the conditions on the affected floors. It seems as most of the operations involved getting people away from those floors. Had 911 operators relayed key bits of info to the ICP, we may have not lost 343 fireman that day.
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Right then, who expected the collapse of the wtc towers?
 
AndrewBurley said:
Right then, who expected the collapse of the wtc towers?
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Here is what I said.....

the buildings collapsed in a way that was not only natural, but expected based on the circumstances

Since you seem to have problems with reading comprehension.....read only the bold parts.

Now ask yourself the question..."is there any mention of timing of the collapse being expected?"

What part of collapsed in a way (i.e. manner) that was expected is so difficult to understand? :rolleyes:
 
Animal said:
Here is what I said.....

the buildings collapsed in a way that was not only natural, but expected based on the circumstances

Since you seem to have problems with reading comprehension.....read only the bold parts.

Now ask yourself the question..."is there any mention of timing of the collapse being expected?"

What part of collapsed in a way (i.e. manner) that was expected is so difficult to understand? :rolleyes:
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Ok. Who predicted that would be the manner of collapse?
 
AndrewBurley said:
Ok. Who predicted that would be the manner of collapse?
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beyond-epic-facepalm-facepalm-stupid-fail-dumb-death-demotivational-poster-1284049056.jpg
 
AndrewBurley said:
Right then, who expected the collapse of the wtc towers?
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Reportedly Mark Loizeaux did ... but was unable to get through to anyone who could relay his concerns.

As for the timing ... the grossly under-strength "Hotel New World Hotel", where the engineer failed to include the "dead weight" in his structural calculations, stood for 15 years. It was only 6 stories, so it was a less energetic collapse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotel_New_World_disaster

The structural engineer had calculated the building's live load, the weight of the building's potential inhabitants, furniture, fixtures and fittings. However the building's dead load was completely omitted from the calculation. This meant that the building as constructed could not support its own weight. Collapsing was only a matter of time and after three different supporting columns had failed in the days before the disaster, the other columns, which took on the added weight no longer supported by the failed columns, could not support the building.
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http://www.scdf.gov.sg/content/scdf...or-incidents/collapse-of-hotel-new-world.html

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ADDING:
AndrewBurley said:
Ok. Who predicted that would be the manner of collapse?
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Any number of engineers, including my room-mate ... as already explained here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7558628&postcount=2805
 
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Gravy had a link to a report that an engineer from the city engineer's department (or whatever you call Building Control in the USA) expressed significant concerns to the Mayor in the 5-10 minutes before the disaster, but there was insufficient time to take action. You'd be best asking him for more details.

FWIW, we were watching it in (slow) streaming video in our office and we expected collapse. Still a shock to see it happen, though.
 
little grey rabbit said:
It's not to difficult at all, in fact its precisely what I believe.

Except I tend to substitute the description religious fanatic with complete fruitloops - because a lot of these fanatics are members here and I want to use a term that will wind them up.
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Things are looking a bit sticky for debunkers.

It seems like Chris Mitchell and News Limited have suddenly woken up to the dangers that fruitloops pose

Fruitloops can be dangerous
 
bill smith said:
What about whwn the fire gets to the third spot. Is the first spot still an inferno or have the available combustables been burned out leaving almost no fire. maybe just a little reidual smouldering ?
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This is, as always, a stupid question, with not enough details given. Depends on how fast the fire spreads to another area. It depends on how much fuel load is available in the first area.

BTW, even a smoldering fire produces heat.
 
triforcharity said:
This is, as always, a stupid question, with not enough details given. Depends on how fast the fire spreads to another area. It depends on how much fuel load is available in the first area.

BTW, even a smoldering fire produces heat.
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[Sigh] Do you think it could have burned evenly all day then ?
 
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