Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[lionking]

Roger that!

Sorry. Glad we cleared that up.

I'm looking hopefully towards the day when Amanda goes free. Wish I could buy you all some champaign! We should have a big party to celebrate.

We should rent a cage where we all pay money for a ball to throw at a target which would drop someone acting as a PMFer or Mignini into the frigid water.

Lionking, what are you doing in early October? Want to make some easy money?

Threats of violence are frowned upon in this forum. As are off-topic personal attacks. Saying "I was only joking" doesn't always get people off the hook.

 

[RandyN]

I'll have to take your word for it if you say you haven't found it on Perugia Shock; I'm pretty sure, though, that Frank does talk about Battistelli's initial report as one reason he may have stuck to his various dubious claims - perhaps it was in relation to entering the room, rather than the arrival time. At any rate, I'm glad someone has the posts archived; hopefully you or Frank himself will be able to make them available again at some point.

As Kaosium said, the first mention of the 12:35 arrival time seems to be in Matteini's report, and it's worth noting that there's no reference there to the CCTV footage at all (or not that I could see, though I should point out that I have the unsearchable pdf version!). So either Matteini is basing that 12:35 time on some kind of information from the postal police - e.g. their logged arrival time, or a report - or she's basing it on an estimated and altered CCTV arrival time, but without mentioning that. I tend to think the former is more likely simply because there must have been a report from the postal police, presumably shortly after the murder, and arrival time would be a basic piece of information to have on there.

Then there's Micheli's report: here's the key sentence from the part you quoted:



I'm not sure what's meant by a 'rounded' hour, perhaps it just means an approximate time (obviously we know it isn't actually 'rounded off' to the nearest 5 minutes or whatever). But the key point here is that Micheli clearly refers to two sources of information: Battistelli's written record that they arrived at 12:35, and then the camera footage which possibly even shows them arriving earlier than that.

So in both Matteini and Micheli's report, that unambiguous 12:35 arrival time is given. To me, the simplest explanation for that time would be that it came from the postal police report/log. It's possible of course that they scrabbled around after the fact trying to reconstruct what happened, but that seems quite convoluted when all they needed to do was estimate the time they arrived. I doubt Battistelli had any idea how important that time would turn out to be.

I’m certain you are correct about this time coming from the log,,,I just cant place it right now when and where this is discussed. From my declining memory...the postal police logged out (of the station) to return the first phone at something like 12. And I remember much discussion that the only reason Battistelli would have to lie was because I suspect the two officers stopped off for a Biscotti. Its lunch time...they are on a routine call to return a found phone...they stopped for lunch...plus the cottage is difficult to find. This is from the cabinerri who had to recall RS phone to ask directions I believe...or rather I think they called AK phone and she handed it over to Phone police so that they could give directions.

It seems to me this matter has been cleared up by the time of Massei. The phone police arrived after RS call to 112. Or in other words RS certainly called his sister and the police several minutes before the phone police show up to find them (AK and RS) sitting outside in the sunny area of the porch.

Battistellis other lie about entering the room was severely challenged in court such that the boy who saw him enter and the officer had to go to a personal conference or some such...to settle the matter. I never heard the result ...perhaps this can be found on Perugia Shock also.

I will apologize to Rixx and see if I can get the links back as I’m certain she has every word including comments.

 

[Kaosium]

Threats of violence are frowned upon in this forum. As are off-topic personal attacks. Saying "I was only joking" doesn't always get people off the hook.

Lionking, don't you have dunk tanks in Oz? It's volunteers in the cage, oftentimes local celebrities who sit there while people throw balls at the lever and a direct hit gives them a dunking. I think there's a number of people in the Seattle area who ought to volunteer for this to raise money for Amanda's family when she's acquitted. It would help to restore reputations and re-establish relations in some quarters.

I think perhaps the best first candidate would be the one who pushed for that park to be named after Perugia. That was pretty dumb!

 

[Justinian2]

I only replied to HumanityBlues so I could see my new signature. haha. It's a recent quote from Ganong. It's priceless.

They come here because they know the discussion is pretty dispassionate and fact-based

I come for interactive discussion that is passionate and fact-based. That's also why I liked your book and the books of the other major authors.

I don't like to see fact-less opinion and ad-homs but I like to see good replies to the witless comments!

 

[Justinian2]

...

You like the attention.

We all like some acknowledgement for what we wrote. Acknowledgement may seem off-topic, but arguably it is the main course.

Is the appeal still happening every day? What's next? Closing arguments?

 

[Katody Matrass]

It's still a week until the trial resumes for it's final part.
Interesting how the Italian media allow the information to trickle just to keep the interest up. Doubts about the investigation and previous verdict is what sells now, and suddenly journalists found a rich source of information that is not exactly new to most of us, but can be surprising to the general public.

We had the "sweatshirt" blunder a day or so ago, that made rounds in the Italian and then world media. We had that very telling yesterday Oggi's cover story

And today another element of what the defence were saying all the time:

The time of death.

Funny how it's enough to go through the defence appeal documents, to get enough material for a new story every day.

 

[RoseMontague]

It's still a week until the trial resumes for it's final part.
Interesting how the Italian media allow the information to trickle just to keep the interest up. Doubts about the investigation and previous verdict is what sells now, and suddenly journalists found a rich source of information that is not exactly new to most of us, but can be surprising to the general public.

We had the "sweatshirt" blunder a day or so ago, that made rounds in the Italian and then world media. We had that very telling yesterday Oggi's cover story

And today another element of what the defence were saying all the time:

The time of death.

Funny how it's enough to go through the defence appeal documents, to get enough material for a new story every day.

The fact that they are reading the appeals and reporting on the arguments made is significant. Who knew the vast PR supertanker had finally made it to the coast of Italy?

 

[JREF2010]

It's still a week until the trial resumes for it's final part.
Interesting how the Italian media allow the information to trickle just to keep the interest up. Doubts about the investigation and previous verdict is what sells now, and suddenly journalists found a rich source of information that is not exactly new to most of us, but can be surprising to the general public.

We had the "sweatshirt" blunder a day or so ago, that made rounds in the Italian and then world media. We had that very telling yesterday Oggi's cover story

And today another element of what the defence were saying all the time:

The time of death.

Funny how it's enough to go through the defence appeal documents, to get enough material for a new story every day.

This ToD based off real evidence seems very strong, if I was a juror/judge.

I would require a explanation for the ToD, and the supporting evidence, from the prosecution and the defense, for making a decision.

The hypothesis of the Judges was very interesting in this case, and at times scary due to their incorrect perspectives, in hindsight. (example, Patrick involved, Nike shoeprints, 112 call, knife & bra clasp), so asking for a complete setup and playout of the crime would be a big help in coming to a decision.

 

[Katody Matrass]

A moving piece by an author who just visited Perugia and attended a few appeal hearings:

My Amanda Knox Obsession
Two innocent people are locked up because orgies are fun to talk about.

She met Lumumba:

What he wanted, like many wronged people, was for someone to listen to his story.

And what a story it was. Because of Knox's accusations, he was ripped away from his young son in the middle of the night, interrogated, beaten, and held in solitary confinement for 14 days. His business remained closed for four months, even after his name was cleared. And he definitely thought Knox and Sollecito were guilty.

She did some reconnaissance on the "climb of death" window:

Now, frankly, I was getting obsessed. I hid behind a bush with my kid and listened to a newscaster give his report about the new DNA findings. I got up at 5 in the morning and crept to the cottage where the murder happened, staring in the window that the prosecutor argued no one could climb into, meaning the killer had to have keys. But the window didn't look that high. I could probably climb up there. The whole thing made my head hurt. I started to be unable to sleep.

Some insights:

But some of this mess, it may be said, was caused by tabloid-hungry folks at dinner parties who wanted a different death for Meredith Kercher than a break-in gone wrong. I know I did, sad as I am about it. And Giuliano Mignini, the prosecutor, obliged us.

 

[Justinian2]

It's still a week until the trial resumes for it's final part.
Interesting how the Italian media allow the information to trickle just to keep the interest up. Doubts about the investigation and previous verdict is what sells now, and suddenly journalists found a rich source of information that is not exactly new to most of us, but can be surprising to the general public.

We had the "sweatshirt" blunder a day or so ago, that made rounds in the Italian and then world media. We had that very telling yesterday Oggi's cover story

And today another element of what the defence were saying all the time:

The time of death.

Funny how it's enough to go through the defence appeal documents, to get enough material for a new story every day.

Those links make interesting reading. The FOA and the defense has had a very good track record, so why not follow their lead?.

The prosecution has basically gotten it entirely wrong with Amanda's case. Yes, the chief suspect is usually the last person to see the victim or to have found the victim. However, Guede was the last person to see Meredith ALIVE. Guede was the last person alive to be in her room.

If you are to extend the logic of the prosecution that the person to find Meredith was a suspect, then the chief suspects should be the police.

But they already have the killer (Guede), so why go by the statistical probability that the person to find the body is the killer?

 

[RoseMontague]

A moving piece by an author who just visited Perugia and attended a few appeal hearings:

My Amanda Knox Obsession
Two innocent people are locked up because orgies are fun to talk about.

She met Lumumba:



She did some reconnaissance on the "climb of death" window:




Some insights:

If that quote from Patrick is accurate, this article is significant.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

every picture tells a story

Katody Matrass,

Katie Crouch wrote, "I stuck my phone into the throng of photographers and snapped Amanda Knox. In the picture, she's startlingly thin and tired-looking...He [Sollecito] shrugged. I don't care about anything anymore, he seemed to say." (italics in original link)

 

[Katody Matrass]

Interesting, some tweets of Katie Crouch from the last court hearings, an alternative view:


Sep 5:

Hearing today. Quite a scene. Amanda and Rafaele looked well dressed and tired. Coffee machine broken. DNA still thrown out.

6 Sep:

Media frenzy is growing. Word in the gallery is there's no way they won't go free.

It was revealed today that some samples were stored by authorities in the victim's own freezer for weeks. (oops.)

7 Sep:

Knox's expert "kicked ass" against the prosecution yesterday. Things are looking good.

Prosecution asked for a whole new team of expert witnesses because the defense did so well. Judge said no!

 

[RoseMontague]

Interesting, some tweets of Katie Crouch from the last court hearings, an alternative view:

Sep 5:

Hearing today. Quite a scene. Amanda and Rafaele looked well dressed and tired. Coffee machine broken. DNA still thrown out.

6 Sep:

Media frenzy is growing. Word in the gallery is there's no way they won't go free.

It was revealed today that some samples were stored by authorities in the victim's own freezer for weeks. (oops.)

7 Sep:

Knox's expert "kicked ass" against the prosecution yesterday. Things are looking good.

Prosecution asked for a whole new team of expert witnesses because the defense did so well. Judge said no!

Thanks Katody! Weeks in the freezer, LOL. Another person with the Hellman says no line.

An ill wind is turning into a Perfect Storm?

 

[christianahannah]

LJ,

I completely agree! The 'crack' police and forensic team did an absolutely abysmal job. If the defense didn't even bring this up at the last trial it was a mistake. It galls me reading the Massei report and how they explain how it wasn't their fault the bra clasp was left behind. It was so small, there was so much activity. It doesn't explain how the blue jacket, socks with blood on the cuffs, shoes with one still tied, purse with blood near the zipper and tote bag near Meredith that she used that night were also NOT collected. It is for this reason I refuse to accept the words forgot or mistake in regards to the bra clasp or the other pieces of evidence left behind. They made a CHOICE to leave them there. There is no other explanation. The 'crack' team basically showed that they could not care less about the victim or her family.

I have wondered why it took so long from the time the cottage was sealed (November 7,2007) until the time to unseal (December 18, 2007). Was this due to an agreement between the prosecution and attorneys for the defendants?

I would think there was an evidence log of items collected from the cottage in November. When was the bra clasp discovered it was not at the lab to be tested - December 17, 2007? Or much earlier?

As for Meredith's jacket and other items I wonder if these items might have been collected and tested sooner than December 18, 2007 and if there was something which prevented that from happening?

 

[Kaosium]

Eeww, my eyes are burning

I have my own copy of the original report on my wiki hand transcribed and translated. This should be put in a more accessible place.


The Mattini Report was signed November 9th and concerns the court appearance which I believe was on the 7th. The line immediately preceding what you quoted talks about having to reconstruct the investigation from the beginning. My guess is that the boys from Rome arrived and asked "what have you got?" and they proceeded to tell the story in twelve part harmony with full orchestration and they stopped them right there and asked: "What time did you first arrive at the cottage?" Well, this was a stumper since nobody had bothered writing anything down so they went through everything they had to try and reconstruct the time.

There are hints that they had this erroneous reconstruction of the timeline before the interrogations on the 5th. It would be nice if we could solidify this.

I agree, for various reasons previously posted there has to be a reason behind the police getting an 'admission' from Raffaele about the Carabinieri call. I seriously have difficulty believing no one thought to check the CCTV camera right across the street, if a reconstruction came from that it would explain the 12:35 time, as their car is sighted at 12:36, and that's a reasonable round-off I think. However, if they go by the time they actually get to the cottage, it's 12:48 on the time stamp, which ought to correspond to ~12:38, or 12:36 if the differential is actually 12 minutes. Going through this I get the impression with the other peripheral indications, the differential is actually 12 minutes, which the cops round off to 10, being incompetent clods and not really that good at math. That's how the stamp says 8:51 in the picture Draca posted, and 8:41 is released to the press, along with that one of 8:43 as well.

The more information they had that indicated the postal police got there at ~12:35, the more certain they would be that Raffaele must be lying. Hell, if they actually had failed to check the video camera across the street for clues, perhaps compiling the arrival time--or verifying it--caused them to do so. Seriously though, I know we're talking about cops who have no clue how to investigate a murder, but any theft or petty crime is going to suggest checking for cameras, it ought to be second nature to think of it.

 

[Katody Matrass]

An ill wind is turning into a Perfect Storm?

I, for one, remain in tranquil ataraxia awaiting the swiftly approaching end of this whole sorry affair.

 

[Kaosium]

As Kaosium said, the first mention of the 12:35 arrival time seems to be in Matteini's report, and it's worth noting that there's no reference there to the CCTV footage at all (or not that I could see, though I should point out that I have the unsearchable pdf version!). So either Matteini is basing that 12:35 time on some kind of information from the postal police - e.g. their logged arrival time, or a report - or she's basing it on an estimated and altered CCTV arrival time, but without mentioning that. I tend to think the former is more likely simply because there must have been a report from the postal police, presumably shortly after the murder, and arrival time would be a basic piece of information to have on there.

Here's what I'm wondering, Katy-did: they simply don't want the defense to be able to verify what they'll call the 'clear cut' CCTV camera footage. They can 'reconstruct' the time whatever way they want, but once someone else but them sees that footage, it's value as a confession enabler tanks. They really seemed to be putting the pressure on for the confession, hitting her with the HIV 'postive,' phantom 'bleach receipts,' the 'murder knife' along with daily lies about Argentinians washing shoes and the like. They kept the CCTV camera footage over her head for months, you'd think if that was considered evidence against her in the Matteini court the defense might get an opportunity to view it, or better yet, show it and talk to the press about it.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Threats of violence are frowned upon in this forum. As are off-topic personal attacks. Saying "I was only joking" doesn't always get people off the hook.

I never knew that a dunk tank was violent. The one's I have participated in usually raise money for charity.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Katody Matrass,

Katie Crouch wrote, "I stuck my phone into the throng of photographers and snapped Amanda Knox. In the picture, she's startlingly thin and tired-looking...He [Sollecito] shrugged. I don't care about anything anymore, he seemed to say." (italics in original link)

4 years of hell. The healing will soon begin.